Specialist games "officially" gone

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**Phryxis**

My inclination is to assume Apocalypse will succeed.

I don't know why it would, I think it's a horrible idea on so many levels, but recently I've seen ton of people playing big games, so I have to assume they're into it.

When I sat down and figured it out, I decided I probably spend a good 2-3 hours on every single model I paint. And that's just the rank and file guys. So, 40K is already asking me to pull dozens of hours of my work off the table every round. Now they want to put out a game that takes days of my work off the table per round? Me no think so.

For me, the logical scope change in 40k would be to go to a smaller scale game. More detail on the individuals and their gear. Maybe a segue into an RPG format.

I guess that just doesn't work for GW. At this point, I'm guessing they've been around long enough, and become bloated enough, that they have to sell a lot of stuff to remain in business. I've heard it said that businesses either grow or die, so the small scale, "only need two dozen models to play" days are probably gone, and not coming back.

**Pariah Press**

Posted By Phryxis on 09/30/2007 1:21 PM

For me, the logical scope change in 40k would be to go to a smaller scale game. More detail on the individuals and their gear. Maybe a segue into an RPG format.

I guess that just doesn't work for GW. At this point, I'm guessing they've been around long enough, and become bloated enough, that they have to sell a lot of stuff to remain in business. I've heard it said that businesses either grow or die, so the small scale, "only need two dozen models to play" days are probably gone, and not coming back.

I think that if Apocalypse fails, they will try making a small-scall 40K Skirmish game. Probably a sort of cross between Necromunda and the current 40K rules (or the 5th edition rules, as they'll probably be out by then).

**BrotherAdso**

<nod> I think Apocalypse is a nod towards those who have either collected a ton of models over many years and want to put them all out there at once, or those with the parental/personal disposable income to buy kilostupids of models, and don't give a fig about painting 'em, just having a beer with the boys and yelling "WAAAGH!"

These are both excellent, indispensible groups. I like them both quite a lot. But I have not the time, money, or inclination to belong to either of them. Hence, a "universalized" version of Necromunda would bring people like myself more firmly into their grasp.

Going back to my earlier post, though, it's a business. And they (and earlier posters) are right to note that dozen-model games are not the big mondey makers that company-of-marines games are. If only GW didn't see them as mutually exclusive, we would be better off...perhaps once they feel more financially comfortable, they'll come around.

-Adso

**Kilkrazy**

BrotherAdso you are right.

GW's strategy only makes sense for people who have been brainwashed into thinking that GW is the whole tabletop game hobby. These people (if they exist) are easily persuaded to buy big games if there aren't small games available.

The problem is there are tons of games of all scales outside GW. If GW do not provide some kind of rivals, players who don't choose to "supersize" to Apocalyse will be driven away.

**Agamemnon2**

Kilkrazy has a point. For example, Apocalypse, and by extension GW, offers nothing to the dedicated Epic aficionado. It's a completely different kind of game.

To use an analogy, Epic is bridge, Apocalypse is 12-player no-limit texas hold'em with a booming television announcer and infinite credit at the bar.

Apocalypse is a kind of gambling, where you take risks, lose big, win big, have a few drinks, eat pretzels, hold a conversation, etc. Epic, at least to me, is more of a puzzle, where you have clearcut objectives, a limited set of tools for solving them, and where a few minor mistakes can cost you the game.

Mind you, these are perceptions. I've played one game of Apocalypse and half a game of Epic, and looking to play a lot more of both in the future. Because some days, you just want to yell "Death or Glory!" at the gaming table and not feel stupid about it even though you knocked over someone's landspeeder with a silly hand gesture (sorry about that, hope you found that heavy bolter), and on others, you'd rather engage in a trying battle of wits with the opposing general.

**carmachu**

Well said. Personally I think GW did a reasonable amount of stuff to keep all of the Specialist games alive. Enough to know when it isn't working. It can't be a big money-maker, so it's getting the axe. Probably a good business decision, even if I'd like to see the stuff knocking around.

Define reasonable?

The bring outa game, support it for 3-6 months, then assigning it to purgatory and never to be seen in WD again, followed by removing all the specialist type models from the stores isnt exactly what I call reasonable....

If you want it to succeed, you have to give it some serious support. Doing it half assed isnt going to see it make money.

Many of them are good transitional games. Low figure games to lure people in. Gods know its how I got into the game, and a few others.

**hubcap**

The bring outa game, support it for 3-6 months, then assigning it to purgatory and never to be seen in WD again, followed by removing all the specialist type models from the stores isnt exactly what I call reasonable....

And yet that's exactly what GW did for 10 years before Fanatic/Specialist, and it seemed to work pretty well. GW was WHFB and 40k, with a rotating third game. Release Blood Bowl/Space Hulk/Man o' War/Necromunda, support it for a couple of years (never 3-6 months - every game had at least a year of support), and when sales dip pull it for the next game. That seemed to work OK as a business model.

It was nice of Jervis to try keeping everything alive all the time for fans like me, but it couldn't have made much money. And conceptually, a lot these games are just small-scale. There's only so much you can do with new ideas. What HASN'T been made into a Mordheim gang? (Uh...have we done Undead Amazon Treasure Hunter Pit Slaves yet?).

So I define reasonable as, "given our constraints on studio resources and shelf space, we tried to keep smaller games alive but not enough people bought them so we're not going to do that any more." Seems reasonable to me.

**hubcap**

I think that if Apocalypse fails, they will try making a small-scall 40K Skirmish game. Probably a sort of cross between Necromunda and the current 40K rules (or the 5th edition rules, as they'll probably be out by then).

I think that's where GW ought to head whether Apocalypse succeeds or not. Game-design-wise (nice word) 40k is stuck: is the basic element a unit or a figure? The army lists make it seem like every figure counts, but that's not true. At the point levels people play 40k is a game of units - this unit is a powerfist delivery system; this one is a las/plas firebase; these 1000 Sons are the tax I pay to get an Aspiring Champion. Too many dudes are just filler.

The rules should be rewritten to reflect a unit-level game. IMO they should be less fiddly. Less in-unit variation, more army level rules, more unit-level rules, and fewer model-level rules. Simpler <> dumber, and fiddly <> sophistimacated. Simpler systems can be plenty challenging (Warmachine, Flames of War) and are easier to balance to boot. I think they're headed in that direction for 40k with the new army lists and with Apocalypse.

Which would leave the field wide open for expanding the Kill Team rules into a genuine skirmish-level game. Big fat book, shiny art, tons of loopy mob variants, a campaign system. You'd have skirmish-level 40k and army-level 40k, and not the current rules which are kind of stuck between both.

**Kilkrazy**

To me GW don't have to keep refreshing every single Specialist game for ever. Some work well as a game in a box without additions (Space Hulk) while others benefit from expansions. But there is a limit. What can be added to Blood Bowl now? It's been out nearly 20 eyars. Surely the rules have been perfected and all the figures you could possibly need are done.

What GW should do is put out some more games that aren't slight variants on 40K and WHFB. Cities Of Death is a good expansion for 40K but does little to attract non-40K players.

**Pariah Press**

Posted By hubcap on 10/01/2007 7:36 AM

I think that if Apocalypse fails, they will try making a small-scall 40K Skirmish game. Probably a sort of cross between Necromunda and the current 40K rules (or the 5th edition rules, as they'll probably be out by then).

I think that's where GW ought to head whether Apocalypse succeeds or not. Game-design-wise (nice word) 40k is stuck: is the basic element a unit or a figure? The army lists make it seem like every figure counts, but that's not true. At the point levels people play 40k is a game of units - this unit is a powerfist delivery system; this one is a las/plas firebase; these 1000 Sons are the tax I pay to get an Aspiring Champion. Too many dudes are just filler.

The rules should be rewritten to reflect a unit-level game. IMO they should be less fiddly. Less in-unit variation, more army level rules, more unit-level rules, and fewer model-level rules. Simpler <> dumber, and fiddly <> sophistimacated. Simpler systems can be plenty challenging (Warmachine, Flames of War) and are easier to balance to boot. I think they're headed in that direction for 40k with the new army lists and with Apocalypse.

Which would leave the field wide open for expanding the Kill Team rules into a genuine skirmish-level game. Big fat book, shiny art, tons of loopy mob variants, a campaign system. You'd have skirmish-level 40k and army-level 40k, and not the current rules which are kind of stuck between both.

This is very well-put, and I entirely agree with you. I've been working on a unit-level 40K game for my gaming group, and trying to work up to doing a streamlined version of 40K-as-we-know-it (perhaps borrowing some elements from Epic Armageddon). I'd certainly prefer it if GW did all of the work for me, as writing these things takes forever.

**carmachu**

And yet that's exactly what GW did for 10 years before Fanatic/Specialist, and it seemed to work pretty well. GW was WHFB and 40k, with a rotating third game. Release Blood Bowl/Space Hulk/Man o' War/Necromunda, support it for a couple of years (never 3-6 months - every game had at least a year of support), and when sales dip pull it for the next game. That seemed to work OK as a business model.

Doubtful.

Looking over WD pre-3rd edition saw WD articles of the various side games sprinkled throughout WD.....months or years after.

This run and dump thing is fairly new. I can find epic and MoW articles and Space hulk ones as well sprinkled in long after thier intital release.....again, pre-3rd.

**syr8766**

@Hubcap: absolutely. I would play those games, and 40k needs them desperately. Perhaps that's where they're going with the Jervisification of the game. An army level game that's really meant for tournament play, with minimal options, and a skirmish level game designed for scenarios/campaigns.

Of course, I'm starting to reach the point of rejecting whole slews of GW-think, including the notion of points, so I might be the wrong person to support you.

**Pariah Press**

Posted By syr8766 on 10/01/2007 7:41 PM

Of course, I'm starting to reach the point of rejecting whole slews of GW-think, including the notion of points, so I might be the wrong person to support you.

Jervis has been rejecting points for years. Take a look at the Epic Armageddon book. He practically begs you not to use the army lists outside of tournament games.

**Asmodai**

Posted By Phryxis on 09/30/2007 1:21 PM

For me, the logical scope change in 40k would be to go to a smaller scale game. More detail on the individuals and their gear. Maybe a segue into an RPG format.

That's already coming out in February.

**malfred**

Posted By Pariah Press on 10/01/2007 7:56 PM

Posted By syr8766 on 10/01/2007 7:41 PM

Of course, I'm starting to reach the point of rejecting whole slews of GW-think, including the notion of points, so I might be the wrong person to support you.
Jervis has been rejecting points for years. Take a look at the Epic Armageddon book. He practically begs you not to use the army lists outside of tournament games.

No points means the only way to make sure things are fair is to buy,
I mean bring EVERYTHING to the motherluvin' table.

**Kilkrazy**

Fiddling around the edges of 40K and WHFB does not address the core problem (IMHO) that GW shops will soon only have two games in them.

**Moopy**

Are some things too iconic to just disappear out of the Warhammer/40k lexicon?

BFG- they constantly talk about fleet battles.
Blood Bowl- this thing has been around for over a decade. The cup, etc, are iconic.

I dunno if Apocalypse is supposed to be a substitute for Epic, but it kinda feels like it.

**TheSecretSquig**

I was speaking to the Forgeworld guys, at their open day asking if they will make us an Imperator Titan to stop us paying silly prices on Ebay for one (not to say Forgeworld price won't be silly). There response was that they cannot make Epic stuff, due to the time spent on designing an Epic model, does not bring in as much profit, as the time spent designing a 40K model.

They went on to say that as long as the Aeronautica games are generating profit an interest, that will be the only Epic scale models you can buy. If they can link a model to that game, they will make it.

**hubcap**

Are some things too iconic to just disappear out of the Warhammer/40k lexicon?

BFG- they constantly talk about fleet battles.
Blood Bowl- this thing has been around for over a decade. The cup, etc, are iconic.

I agree. Those are also two of the better games. But GW could always release them, pull them, then re-release them like they did before with third games.

**Asmodai**

Posted By hubcap on 10/02/2007 6:44 AM

Are some things too iconic to just disappear out of the Warhammer/40k lexicon?

BFG- they constantly talk about fleet battles.
Blood Bowl- this thing has been around for over a decade. The cup, etc, are iconic.

I agree. Those are also two of the better games. But GW could always release them, pull them, then re-release them like they did before with third games.

I think they need a limited release once a decade or so to preserve the copyright anyway. Not sure of the details.

**Hellfury**

Posted By Asmodai on 10/02/2007 6:47 AM

Posted By hubcap on 10/02/2007 6:44 AM

Are some things too iconic to just disappear out of the Warhammer/40k lexicon?

BFG- they constantly talk about fleet battles.
Blood Bowl- this thing has been around for over a decade. The cup, etc, are iconic.

I agree. Those are also two of the better games. But GW could always release them, pull them, then re-release them like they did before with third games.

I think they need a limited release once a decade or so to preserve the copyright anyway. Not sure of the details.

Which brings us to Space Hulk.... *looks at watch* Yep, the timing is right. There were some strong rumours that it would be out this time next year from some people in the know.

I REALLY hope this gets either re-released or updated soon.

I know its not really a specialist game, as it needs no support, but this game is timeless. The perfect gateway drug into 40K. More importantly, alot more fun than normal 40K as well.

**two heads talking**

Posted By hubcap on 10/02/2007 6:44 AM

Are some things too iconic to just disappear out of the Warhammer/40k lexicon?

BFG- they constantly talk about fleet battles.
Blood Bowl- this thing has been around for over a decade. The cup, etc, are iconic.

I agree. Those are also two of the better games. But GW could always release them, pull them, then re-release them like they did before with third games.

as for longevity, i would have to say, bloodbowl (since 1985 or so)

space hulk (since before moses)

and talisman (since before adam)

there are plenty of others, but each of these had at least 3 revisions and seperate releases.

**Pariah Press**

Andy, the current face of Fanatic, has this to say in his latest editorial at www.specialist-games.com:

"So to set the record straight and prevent further confusion, I never said that Games Workshop would never do any Specialist Games miniatures ever again, that is not the case. However, the Adeptus Mechanicus ships released this summer does mark the end of the miniatures in our current bi-annual release strategy. So there will be no further new releases for the Specialist Games going forward in the near future. Where we go from here is a good question and one that is being decided by people far higher up the GW chain than me. In the meantime I’ll continue to do my bit on this very website. Specialist Games and their accompanying ranges will remain in place and available from Direct channels. Games Workshop remains committed to the Specialist Games and their IP as evidenced by the Blood Bowl computer game that is currently in development. "

**Necros**

Good to see they're at least trying to hold on. Even if they stop making new stuff, but then aside from epic and warmaster they could try and get folks to build stuff out of the regular GW range.. like for instance, you can buy a couple of empire milita sprues and have all the bitz you need to make a good human warband for Mordheim.

I think they could easily bring space hulk back. Just make the rules available in a PDF, including printable board pieces that you can print out and paste on posterboard.. or go a step further with 1 or 2 little articles on how you can make your own space hulk interiors using bitz from cities of death box sets.. and then just use your own/buy new terminators & genestealers.

**Pariah Press**

Posted By Necros on 10/05/2007 9:02 PM
Good to see they're at least trying to hold on. Even if they stop making new stuff, but then aside from epic and warmaster they could try and get folks to build stuff out of the regular GW range.. like for instance, you can buy a couple of empire milita sprues and have all the bitz you need to make a good human warband for Mordheim.

Especially considering the Empire Militia Sprues were originally designed for Mordheim!

It is a relief that they're not giving SG the axe, and that there are still chances for Epic Tyranids and Warmaster Beasts of Chaos some time in the future.

**Kilkrazy**

Do you know, when Space Hulk was first released the entire set cost £20?

They could rerelease it as a complete set. I heard they "lost" the templates, moulds or cutting blocks for some of the contents, possibly the corridor sections. Even so these could be recreated without much toruble.

I suspect, though, that GW's preferred strategy will be to get users to buy two sets of plastic Terminators, some Genestealer sets and so on, thus inflating the price of the whole game to eye-popping levels.

In my opnion this would be the wrong strategy. Space Hulk is a great entry game but only at the right price point, which these days is about £40-£50 like the AT43 box.

**Broon**

Space Hulk is awesome. Better than BB, Necro, Talisman, Dark Future, better than all the great ones.

**Pariah Press**

Posted By Kilkrazy on 10/06/2007 5:08 AM
Do you know, when Space Hulk was first released the entire set cost £20?

They could rerelease it as a complete set. I heard they "lost" the templates, moulds or cutting blocks for some of the contents, possibly the corridor sections. Even so these could be recreated without much toruble.

I suspect, though, that GW's preferred strategy will be to get users to buy two sets of plastic Terminators, some Genestealer sets and so on, thus inflating the price of the whole game to eye-popping levels.

In my opnion this would be the wrong strategy. Space Hulk is a great entry game but only at the right price point, which these days is about £40-£50 like the AT43 box.

I don't think so. I read an interview with Jervis where he mused about re-releasing Space Hulk at some point in the future, with cheap(er) snap-together Terminators instead of the current fancy plastic ones. Hell, they could use the same genestealers from the Macragge boxed set.

**Osbad**

Posted By Kilkrazy on 10/06/2007 5:08 AM
In my opnion this would be the wrong strategy. Space Hulk is a great entry game but only at the right price point, which these days is about £40-£50 like the AT43 box.

Op. Damocles is actually selling for around £35 - £40 now. I believe one of Rackham's problems with AT-43 in Europe, and particularly the UK was that they overcooked the entry level price. Can't recall the US Damocles price now, but IIRC it was way less than $100! Personally my cut-off point for trying something out is around £30, but that's just me as a jaded old fart. £40 is probably more realistic for the market the way it is.

**Osbad**

Posted By Pariah Press on 10/06/2007 3:22 PM

Posted By Kilkrazy on 10/06/2007 5:08 AM
Do you know, when Space Hulk was first released the entire set cost £20?

They could rerelease it as a complete set. I heard they "lost" the templates, moulds or cutting blocks for some of the contents, possibly the corridor sections. Even so these could be recreated without much toruble.

I suspect, though, that GW's preferred strategy will be to get users to buy two sets of plastic Terminators, some Genestealer sets and so on, thus inflating the price of the whole game to eye-popping levels.

In my opnion this would be the wrong strategy. Space Hulk is a great entry game but only at the right price point, which these days is about £40-£50 like the AT43 box.

I don't think so. I read an interview with Jervis where he mused about re-releasing Space Hulk at some point in the future, with cheap(er) snap-together Terminators instead of the current fancy plastic ones. Hell, they could use the same genestealers from the Macragge boxed set.

Would a re-release of SH be worth the candle though? The old game partly sold well because of the association with the Alien films. That's not going to be much of a hook any more as those films are old. A few may be interested, particularly fans of the old game, but I can't seeing it being a big hit these days.

In order to have a big hit they have to tune into the current zeitgeist. They need to have a game around the angles that are coming out in current sci-fi films. A bunch of marines on a derilect space ship with a bunch of gribbly aliens is old news.