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Ghaz, don't be coy. Tell us what you think "supplied with" means, in that case, and explain your basis for believing so.

And yet again, you've yet to prove that just because there's another model in the box that uses a different size base then the base was supplied for any and all models in that box. That is patently false. The 25mm bases in the Terminator box were supplied with the teleport homer, not the Terminators. Without the teleport homer, there would not have been any 25mm bases in the box at all. Therefore the teleport homer is the model that was supplied with the 25mm bases, not the Terminators. Just because they happen to all come in one box doesn't mean that a model was supplied with whatever size base you can dig out of the box.

What about the battleforce deals for each army? Each box comes with models and is supplied with various base sizes. Does this mean the base sizes are interchangeable? What about the poor chump that purchases the models separately and that were only supplied with one base size. How can YOU, the opponent, tell the difference?

I purchased two Tyranid army boxes when they came out. Does that mean I can put my winged Tyrant on a 25mm base? How bout those Carnis? Sweet!

Just out of curiosity, how would you handle a purchased Necron Destroyer that was "supplied with" both a 40mm clear skimmer base AND a sprue of 25mm bases? Would you allow your opponent to use the 25mm base? What if he told you all 15 of his Destroyers came that way? And his 9 Heavy Destroyers? And his C'tan?

Ghaz wrote:And yet again, you've yet to prove that just because there's another model in the box that uses a different size base then the base was supplied for any and all models in that box. That is patently false. The 25mm bases in the Terminator box were supplied with the teleport homer, not the Terminators. Without the teleport homer, there would not have been any 25mm bases in the box at all. Therefore the teleport homer is the model that was supplied with the 25mm bases, not the Terminators. Just because they happen to all come in one box doesn't mean that a model was supplied with whatever size base you can dig out of the box.

We shall call this new way of looking at packaging as "AAI", "Assembled as Intended" instead of the more literal "AAS" or "Assembled as Supplied".

The terminators are intended to be based on the 40 mm bases, but are supplied with 40 and 25 mm bases. With one homer per box, why do they include four 25 mm bases in each box?

tegeus-Cromis wrote:Ghaz, don't be coy. Tell us what you think "supplied with" means, in that case, and explain your basis for believing so.

I'll repeat...

If the box comes with 4 25mm bases and 5 40mms, I'd say it comes with 4 25s because that's how many of those are made on a sprue. I need to check my box of unassembled termies at home. I'm curious.

Mannahnin wrote:If the box comes with 4 25mm bases and 5 40mms, I'd say it comes with 4 25s because that's how many of those are made on a sprue. I need to check my box of unassembled termies at home. I'm curious.

AAI = yes they are made 4 on a sprue (with a little four way cross connecting them).

It was a nice perk to get a few free bases to put some early edition IG guys on for ratlings ince they are so small.

Buoyancy wrote:

Really? Where are these supposed pictures? Since you haven't supplied any pictures, I'm simply going to assume that you are lying about what the pictures show. That is, after all, the only reasonable thing to do when dealing with somebody who thinks that "supplied with" has a different meaning than "comes in the same packaging".

There's already a picture linked in the thread. Maybe you should consider actually reading or thinking before making ridiculous comments.

As far as I can tell you don't understand the concept of association, or what the word with means. I think there's sufficient argument in the thread, based on the rules and whats provided in the box, that you should be required to put a terminator on a 40mm base.

What you're not grasping is that, while it is apparently intended to base loyalist termies on 40mm bases, by the actual rules, you are allowed to base them on 25mm or 40mm (As both bases are supplied with the models).

skyth wrote:What you're not grasping is that, while it is apparently intended to base loyalist termies on 40mm bases, by the actual rules, you are allowed to base them on 25mm or 40mm (As both bases are supplied with the models).

Wonderful!!! Then MY winged Tyrants and Carnifexes can based on 25mm bases since those bases were supplied with the army set I purchased from GW. Mind you, those of you who may have purchased your Tyrants and Carnifexes separately are only permitted to use the 40mm bases. Guess y'all just SOL....


Y'all just ignore my scenarios as previously posted. As Ghaz has laboriously pointed out, just because two types of models are in a box and two types of bases are supplied in the same box doesn't mean the bases can be used interchangeably. Otherwise, I'm well within my right to base all of my Tyranid models on 25mm bases, including the TMCs.

Curious thought: What about those models who's bases where inadvertently not delivered? What base size is used then?

Apply Ochman's Razor to the debate: Y'all's concept makes for a much more difficult implementation of the rules (see above and several of my previous posts) while Ghaz's is rather simple to implement. When in doubt, go with the simpler implementation.

Technically, by the rules, your carnifexes are allowed to be on 25mm bases. Tyrants don't come in the battleforces, so you're stuck with the 60mm for them

Models that are shipped without a base can use any size base as any size>nothing.

The interpretation that either the 40 mm or 25 mm base can be used on the models blatantly violates the rules in the BGB.

The fact that it says "miniatures are usually supplied with A base" would suggest that there is in fact one intended base. And it is not anything that comes in the box. There is a base in the box that GW intends for use with the miniature. Typically these items scale with the miniatures they correspond to.

I have yet to see a logical argument against this claim. Stating that everything in the box is supplied with the miniature may be true, but it does not appear to meet the full criteria set up in the definition.

Or it suggests that usually minis are usually supplied with 'a base'...But they are not always supplied with 'a base' and could possibly be supplied with no base, or multiple bases.

Again, you are making an intent argument rather than a RAW argument.

The only thing RAW states is that they are supplied with "a base" ... "usually" this means that a single base size should be associated with a miniature. The no base or possibly multiple base conditions are not outlined by RAW which are permissive if I am not mistaken.

Ghaz:

And yet again, you've yet to prove that just because there's another model in the box that uses a different size base then the base was supplied for any and all models in that box.

And yet again you illegitimately substitute "for" instead of "with."

The 25mm bases in the Terminator box were supplied with the teleport homer, not the Terminators. Without the teleport homer, there would not have been any 25mm bases in the box at all. Therefore the teleport homer is the model that was supplied with the 25mm bases, not the Terminators. Just because they happen to all come in one box doesn't mean that a model was supplied with whatever size base you can dig out of the box.

So let me ask again: what is your definition of "supplied with"?

TGA: As skyth has said, technically, you can indeed base your carnies on small bases.

Don't confuse what the rules say with what we'd actually do, BTW. This is a discussion of what the BGB allows and disallows, not what we personally do.

Spif:

The fact that it says "miniatures are usually supplied with A base" would suggest that there is in fact one intended base. And it is not anything that comes in the box.

"Miniatures are usually supplied with a base" leaves open the possibility that they may come with more than one base or with no bases. The truth is that the rules don't tell us what to do when this is the case.

And yet again, it makes no difference if it's "for" or "with". The model is only supplied with one size base because that is the base it is meant to be on.

Also, you've utterly failed to to prove that a miniature is "supplied with" a base just because it happens to come in the same box. "Comes with" and "Supplied with" are two totally different phrases with different meanings. When you "supply" a base for a miniature, it's because it's meant for that miniature. Just because it "came" in the same box as that miniature doesn't mean that it was "supplied" with or for that miniature if there is another miniature in the box it was "supplied" for or with.

Terminators are supplied with 40mm bases.

Teleport Homers are supplied with 25mm bases.

Terminators and teleport homers all come in one box with both 25mm and 40mm bases, but that does not mean that they're supplied with all of those bases. They are only supplied with the bases they would have come with if they were available by themselves.

In your reading, who is being supplied, the customer or the miniature? I read it as "miniatures are usually supplied [to the customer] with a base." In your reading, it seems that the miniature is "supplied with a base" in the same sense that a person going to the supermarket is supplied with groceries. Is this an accurate summation of your stand, or am I being unfair? I want to clarify this before going further.

@TheGreatAvatar:
Only the old Models, wich actually were bought with a 25mm base in a box!

@Ghaz:
Do you have anything, wich proves your statment on what is supplied with wich base?
I agree with your overall point, but you actually mix up RAW and RAI and someone could possibly consider you as an very ignorant person...maybe it's just me (and maybe some of the others) talking about RAW and you about RAI...

Laserbait wrote:
I think I'll 'get creative' and start using US pennies for bases.

As long as you found those pennies in the box and find a playgroup where people make no difference between 'bases' and 'money'.
Maybe you could convert a 23$note into an assault cannon.

Douchebaggery abound in this thread! Congrats!

tegeus-Cromis wrote: "miniatures are usually supplied [to the customer] with a base." In your reading, it seems that the miniature is "supplied with a base"

The subject of the sentence is miniature. I think they are the ones being supplied bases. Where the models and bases end up going is not really the point.

So if I stick a carnifex on a 25mm base, haven't I just supplied it with a 25mm base?

Unfortunately, the RAW will not tell you which base is for which model, only that the model is usually supplied with a base. No matter which set you buy, if there are multiple models and multiple bases, it appears players have to use their discretion to determine which bases are for which models. With no clear instructions given, players must use intuition to decide.

Evidence such as the fact that there are 5 40mm bases and 5 terminators, but only 4 25mm bases, would seem to imply that the 40mm bases are the bases that were supplied with the terminators and the 25mm bases were supplied with the teleport homer. The picture of the terminator squad on the GW website would further support this intuition. But again, without explicit directions, all we can do during assembly is guess which bases were supplied with which models.

The definition of supplied doesn't offer much more guidance. It is true that in the terminator box there are multiple bases and models that all the models and bases have been supplied with in that box. A better question to ask is if there were no terminators in this box, would there be 40mm bases.

The question is not what the RAW convey. The RAW convey that the model was probably provided with a base. The question is how do we determine which base to use on that model. If there are multiple types of bases in a box and no instructions on which base is for which model, it is a question for interpretation which pairing to use. However, there are strong pieces of evidence for what the makers intended; again number of bases to models and pictures on GW website.

As a player, it is your right to dismiss these pieces of evidence as attempts to interpret RAI and not as RAW, but you shouldn't get upset when others choose not to. Unlike other RAI questions, there's solid evidence that points toward which bases are for which models.

Like any other ambiguous problem that presents itself, Tournament and House rules will have to make a decision on this matter. Just don't get upset if your army is ruled inelligible because you got cute with your bases and the judges don't buy your arguments.

lifeafter wrote:As a player, it is your right to dismiss these pieces of evidence as attempts to interpret RAI and not as RAW, but you shouldn't get upset when others choose not to. Unlike other RAI questions, there's solid evidence that points toward which bases are for which models.

Actually, seeing as how this particular subforum is supposed to be purely about RAW, it's perfectly reasonable to get upset when somebody decides to waste your time by bringing up irrelevant information about the intent of the rules.

Actually, seeing as how this particular subforum is supposed to be purely about RAW, it's perfectly reasonable to get upset when somebody decides to waste your time by bringing up irrelevant information about the intent of the rules.

Until this last response, I have to admit that I didn't quite understand what your argument was. I thought it was a valid point about how different bases were supplied with different models. I now understand that you can put whatever base you want on a model as long as it was in the same box because "somebody decides to waste your time by bringing up irrelevant information about the intent of the rules."

Although I see the merit in your argument, allow me to put forth this counter argument: the RAW don't necessarily permit you to put any base that comes in the same box as a particular model on that model. There are no specific directions for which base is given to which model in most sets with multiple types of bases and models. Therefore a player has to use some means other than specific, written directions to determine which models get which bases. Some of these other means can include looking at pictures of the models and analyzing the ratio of bases to models. Because there is an element of discretion involved, Tournament Judges and Gaming Locations may decide to make a ruling on this. Though putting a model on a smaller base if it was included in the same box may not be against the RAW, Tournament Judges and Gaming Locations may not agree with your interpretation based off of evidence of RAI. If you've read this post before such an instance happens, hopefully their decision will come as less of a shock.

I would also like to further state that this sub-forum is not immune to points of RAI. There are numerous anecdotes which illustrate times when RAW isn't enough to make a judgement call. If it was 40k You Make The Call Only With Raw, none of my terminators on their 25mm bases would be able to have their 5+ invul and fire heavy weapons and move at the same time.

What Buoyancy said. Let's be honest, who here would actually mount new Termies on 25mm bases, or carnifexes for that matter? I certainly wouldn't, because there is more to being an opponent who people will want to play against than simply following the letter of the rules. What we're talking about, however, is what the rules say, not what our individual consciences (and gaming buddies/tourney organisers!) will allow us to do.

I might mount termies on 25mm bases, to go with my existing termies. Otherwise this thread has become an interetsing "how many angels on the head of a pin," argument.

I am sure if 40mm bases were supplied with terminators orginally when they were first produced, this sort of argument wouldnt occur.

But there are still many people who do infact have older termies based on 25mm bases, both plastic and metal.

Should the older figs be illegitimized because newer plastic termies are better posed on 40mm bases?

Should the player with older termies be forced to rebase their figs on 40mm bases?

Should the player who owns older 25mm based figs be forced to make his army look rather incoherent if he wants to buy more termies for his army and base them on 40mm bases?

Its a problem with consistency. My opinion is that GW attempted (and failed) to address this issue of consistency with older models with the rule quoted earlier in this thread.

I will agree with Lifeafter regarding how this should be solved on a case by case basis, but the problem is that people aren't "being cute" by basing their termies on 25mm bases, they are doing it because older termies were supplied with such bases, as are newer termies.

But really this thread is going nowhere. Arguing RAI in the face of RAW are two incompatible debates.

RAI holds more logic here (and in most other cases) than does GW's rather pitiful attempt at RAW.

Just so I can leave this thread and never return, I will say that I believe that people can base their termies on 25mm bases just as much as they can base them on 40mm bases due to the models being supplied with both size bases in the plastic box. However, I do think that GW intended for players to base them on 40mm bases.

But I will support people who feel the need to base their termies on 25mm bases if for no other reason than a strict adherence to RAW and how termies are historically supplied with 25mm bases.

If I had a bunch of old terminators (which I do) and added a bunch of new termintors I would probably mount the new termies on 25mm bases to match, or it would all look stupid. If some player objected and said I should have put them on 40mm bases I would admit he was right and peg him as a a-hole.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:So if I stick a carnifex on a 25mm base, haven't I just supplied it with a 25mm base?

You have not supplied the miniature with anything. The base for the miniature was supplied for you by GW. As you yourself stated, the carnifex was "stuck" on the base.

I am going to go out on a limb here and assume miniatures are supplied with bases even before they are modeled.

If the model is provided with more than one base (or none) RAW do not permit you to choose whatever base you wish (or use no base, or fix the miniature to a piece of lint, penny, or sprue).

The rules do not say "miniatures are usually supplied with several bases, and you can use the smallest of these bases as the minimum size"

If RAW does not specify what is allowable, I do not see any recourse other than to use GW's intent. I think this is an obvious flaw on GW's part in wording the rules (honestly, who sets up a ruling starting with usually and does not elaborate on all possible cases). Contrary to what some people are suggesting, the purpose of this forum is to go beyond RAW and see how people typically play the game.

Spif:

You have not supplied the miniature with anything. The base for the miniature was supplied for you by GW.

Earlier you said that "miniatures" was the subject of the sentence, and that "miniatures are usually supplied with a base" meant that someone was giving a base to the miniature. Where does GW enter into the equation? Does it ever state who is to supply the miniature with a base?

I am going to go out on a limb here and assume miniatures are supplied with bases even before they are modeled.

I'm going to remain securely on the ground and ask you what you base this assumption on.

If the model is provided with more than one base (or none) RAW do not permit you to choose whatever base you wish (or use no base, or fix the miniature to a piece of lint, penny, or sprue).

The rules do not say "miniatures are usually supplied with several bases, and you can use the smallest of these bases as the minimum size"

That's true. Like I said, the ruels simply do not tell you what to do in this case.

If RAW does not specify what is allowable, I do not see any recourse other than to use GW's intent. I think this is an obvious flaw on GW's part in wording the rules (honestly, who sets up a ruling starting with usually and does not elaborate on all possible cases). Contrary to what some people are suggesting, the purpose of this forum is to go beyond RAW and see how people typically play the game.

Then there is little point to this thread now (althoguh the original question did have a point), because it is absobloodylutely obvious how most people play it.