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Danny Internets wrote:Valhallan, what you say about GW stores and GW employees is generic to the point where it can be said of any gaming store. The problem with GW is that their employees exaggerate these qualities to the point where it drives people away whereas FLGSs typically do not. I've never had FLGS employees try to sell me stuff that they know is crap (in fact, I've had some caution me against buying things), but I have had a red shirt try and convince me that Pariahs are a great addition to a Necron army.

You point out that every business has douchebag employees, but the fact that it is commonplace for gamers to complain specifically about the douchebaggery of GW salesmen is an indication of a problem. It all comes down to their management practices.

It's also because there are a lot more GW shops than independents.

On the positive I've never stepped into a GW and then stepped right back out due to the ripeness of the body odor. I have done that at FLGS before.

I've been in Orc's Nest several times but I've only bought stuff from them online. This is because by luck they were the last people in the world with a copy of DBM Army Book 2 or something.

I know from going in the shop, I will never again plumb those depths of RPG dedication -- much as I might like to -- unless retirement brings me the time and life brings me the friends who might also indulge.

In short, it is a great shop if you are after all kinds of odd RPG paraphernalia, however I have never even asked for service in there.

I don't know whether the staff are embittered grouchs who realise belatedly they have wasted their golden youth on an idle dream, or if they are living a golden dream for real, of a life of youthful idleness pursuing their favourite pursuits.

I argue that the problem is perception and target audience. You're a vet, I assume. You're probably not the target audience, and for you to assume that they should know you already play is foolish. Most of them are newish, as retail turnover is fairly high, and so they only have a modicum of training. People who only have one or two tools tend to wield them clumsily at times. Turn the questions around on them. Turn it into a conversation, same as you would at an FLGS. Don't go into a store with a chip on your shoulder.

I don't assume that the employees have ESP when I enter a GW store nor do I assume they have ESP when I enter an independent store. The difference is that the employees of the former are aggressive to the point of annoying in their sales tactics while employees of the latter are not. I've been to plenty of local gaming stores and hobby shops and have never experienced this. I have been to numerous GW stores as well and have experienced this at all of them each and every time I've gone.

The fact of the matter is that the internet is full of people who complain about everything. If the internets were any true indications of the majority, Jervis would have been drawn and quartered years ago, and Rick Priestly would have been dipped in honey and rolled in bees. If you don't want to talk to people about your hobby, don't go into the store. People keep coming back to the stores, and keep joining the hobby. The Great Doom bespoke of by the Internets is not yet apon us.

I don't recall saying that the volume of complaints about this particular aspect of GW represented majority (probably because I didn't). I simply pointed out that many GW customers have a beef with the way GW employees are trained to behave. You say that people complain about everything, but I don't hear people complaining about the layout of the stores, or about their appearance. To claim that complaints about GW staff is just part of the baseline, background noise of internet grumbling is naive. It's prevalent enough that you felt the need to comment on how often the issue comes up in your first post in this thread. That should tell you something.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Danny Internets wrote:Valhallan, what you say about GW stores and GW employees is generic to the point where it can be said of any gaming store. The problem with GW is that their employees exaggerate these qualities to the point where it drives people away whereas FLGSs typically do not. I've never had FLGS employees try to sell me stuff that they know is crap (in fact, I've had some caution me against buying things), but I have had a red shirt try and convince me that Pariahs are a great addition to a Necron army.

You point out that every business has douchebag employees, but the fact that it is commonplace for gamers to complain specifically about the douchebaggery of GW salesmen is an indication of a problem. It all comes down to their management practices.

It's also because there are a lot more GW shops than independents.

That's not true of either of the places I've played in over the past decade or so (Westchester County, NY and Boston, MA). Maybe it's different overseas.

MagickalMemories wrote:I'll step up for the GW store in the St. Louis area.

Eric

I was in St Louis last weekend with my family for vacation, we were held over due to trains being cancelled from the flooding, so Monday while waiting on the afternoon train we went to the mall to kill time, and because I wanted to check out the store(I live in Western MO, we only have LGS). I have to say, the one staff member in the store was quite friendly, gave me a "Hi, can I help you with anything?" and when I replied that I was just looking, left it at that. Didn't push anything on me, I browsed pretty much the whole store too, so it wasn't like I went straight to a section like I knew what I wanted. Overall that's how I like to be treated, a offer of help, and when told I don't need it, to let me go about my business. I picked up the 40k Counter Set, some paint, and then got a White Dwarf for the train ride, never got pushed on what army I was working on, or anything. Good experience for my first time in a GW store.

Every retail shop can have the ultrapushy sales people. Certainly it is nothing out of the norm for such places. I tend to be more insulted and more likely to walk out if they do not approach me to ask if I need anything. Because if they can not spare the time to deliver customer service to me I certainly will not part with any of my cash to them. I recently did get to visit a GW store(In another province) while I was visiting relatives. I did enjoy the life sized space marine that was very cool and the retail staff seemed to be rather surprised that someone who did not know was suddenly appearing in thier store. It was ironic that the one item I was looking for they actually did not have in stock.

Danny Internets-

My assertion is that GW will lose on this argument either way because people dislike GW's corporate stance while loving their products.

If they're agressive with sales, they're too pushy. If they're laid back, they're ignoring you. I'd rather have to tamp the enthusiasm down, then have to crank it up. YMMV.

My young cousin (just starting the hobby, I've taught him enough painting/modelling to be actually pretty good now) who's 14 has had some pretty aggravating experiences when he's gone into shops like this.

Notably the branch in Hammersmith.

Now, I know he's a kid still, but he knows his stuff. At least they can ask him if he's experienced before trying to ram every single boxed set down his throat. And yes, selling techniques aside, I'm not sure if every GW employee missed the memo that continual annoyance just makes the Online Store SO much more inviting?

Really. I've had to go in there, and once I had to BRING HIS & MY ARMIES before they would leave us alone about trying to preach to the converted.

And even then, they tried to drag us into store gaming...

~sA

smiling Assassin wrote:

And even then, they tried to drag us into store gaming...

~sA

You're upset that a games store wanted you to game there? I don't understand the problem.

Danny Internets wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Danny Internets wrote:Valhallan, what you say about GW stores and GW employees is generic to the point where it can be said of any gaming store. The problem with GW is that their employees exaggerate these qualities to the point where it drives people away whereas FLGSs typically do not. I've never had FLGS employees try to sell me stuff that they know is crap (in fact, I've had some caution me against buying things), but I have had a red shirt try and convince me that Pariahs are a great addition to a Necron army.

You point out that every business has douchebag employees, but the fact that it is commonplace for gamers to complain specifically about the douchebaggery of GW salesmen is an indication of a problem. It all comes down to their management practices.

It's also because there are a lot more GW shops than independents.

That's not true of either of the places I've played in over the past decade or so (Westchester County, NY and Boston, MA). Maybe it's different overseas.

Yeah, I'm in the UK.

Valhallan42nd wrote:

smiling Assassin wrote:

And even then, they tried to drag us into store gaming...

~sA

You're upset that a games store wanted you to game there? I don't understand the problem.

The UK seems to have much more of a culture of gaming at home and at parish halls and community centres than at games shops. It comes though in the way people write about their gaming life.

I don't know this for truth -- it's a question I've asked Americans before without getting any answers.

I'm afraid to say that I find myself extremely sympathetic towards the gentlemen who started this topic. I'm currently thirty-three years old and work in IT management. During my teenage years I enjoyed playing at least three varieties of Warhammer as well as Blood Bowl and the thrash metal band Bolt Thower. Then I went to university in a town with no Games Workshop, and then I traded my miniatures away for D&D manuals, and then I got a girlfriend, and so on and so forth.

So it has probably been nearly fifteen years since I visited a Games Workshop, but recently I happened to buy the 'Dawn of War' game for my PC. It didn't really hold my interest for long but it did make me really nostalgic for my long lost and much beloved space ork army. I went to my parents house and recovered the remnants from the attic. I mostly enjoyed painting and converting miniatures, and although I had traded away most of the finished models there were some half-finished projects and enough plastic sprues to make a good start on a new army.

Having decided that I really wanted to complete my convoy of looted imperial vehicles I popped into a local Games Workshop store (I know of three within about twenty miles of where I live). The plan was mostly to stock up on various paints and modelling materials that I knew I would need. I also wanted to investigate the possibility of buying some current models towards turning my ramshackle assortment of ork bitz into a usable and rules-legal army. I wasn't planning on using my army in battle, I certainly don't have the time to play in any kind of a league, but if there was the possibility of a few casual games with people of my own age group then it wouldn't hurt to be prepared.

Well, truthfully, when I say 'investigate the possibility of buying some current models' what I mean is 'I remember trying to build armies from sale bins with the meagre earnings from my part-time job when I was at school and college and now that I'm earning enough to support a coke habit if I so wished I could have been sold half the shop if approached with the right attitude and enjoyed it.

I ended up getting quickly intimidated out of the shop having spent £50 and not even having bought everything that I meant to get. I'm actually quite a loud and tactless individual and I'm still not sure how that happened. I was also patronised to the extent that I still feel slightly soiled. I'm certainly embarassed to go back. In hindsight I'm sure that the three youthful staff who pounced on me were only intending to do their jobs and meant no harm, but they scared the hell out of me. The experience was similar to getting out of bed on a Saturday morning with a hangover, answering the door in a dressing gown and being suddenly bewildered to find religious fanatics demanding that you join their church in order to receive salvation.

So now I'm on the internet researching what I'm going to want and writing a list on a piece of paper, which I will then take with me to a different Games Workshop store where I will be prepared for their attitude and not tolerate it and make sure I get exactly what was on the list. And it was during the course of that research that I came across this website, noticed this topic, and felt the urge to comment.

I'm not complaining, I understand the tactics of the staff, but I'm sure it would be in everyones best interests to treat thirty-somethings slightly differently than twelve-year olds. I'm assuming we have more money which should give Games Workshop a good reason to want us back in the hobby, and we don't want people half our age enthusing 'if you get good your models could end up on display, like those!' when we buy some paints and a can of chaos black undercoat. Golden Demon awards winner me (assuming commendations count), I don't need that. From looking at this topic it would appear that my experience was far from unique, so maybe the company should look at its policies or training? Or maybe us old folks should just grow a pair.

First post by the way, pleased to meet you all.

I'd ask what a parish hall is first. (Kidding, I know what it is. We just don't have them here.)

The UK is much more into the stuff you related than we are.

I understand where you're coming from Mr Cat.

Going in a GW shop is sometimes a bit like being flirty fished by a cult.

Kilkrazy wrote:The UK seems to have much more of a culture of gaming at home and at parish halls and community centres than at games shops. It comes though in the way people write about their gaming life.

I don't know this for truth -- it's a question I've asked Americans before without getting any answers.

I dunno why there's an emphasis on playing at stores over here. I I guess maybe it's because generally speaking whenever people play in a store, they buy something. I know I do, I feel like if they're giving me a place to play I should at least buy something even if it's just a few paints. it could also be just because the store owners and employees want to get paid to play

Me personally though I don't really care for playing in stores. I only do it for special events that I want to check out or if I'm meeting a friend for a game we already planned on playing. Because of work I can only get to a store with enough time to play if it's a weekend, and all their special "game nights" are on week nights :( My club started out in a guy's basement (he could fit 4 tables down there) and that's where I like playing the most but our club is too big for his house now, and we're playing at a local store.. which I don't really think is any bigger :( We just meet up once a month so it's not that big of a deal.

Playing in stores is free and requires no need to store/repair/create terrain. In the US, it's a crap ton of sapce as well. It's kind of a no brainer.

I was paying for some SM scouts recently and the guy behind the counter made the usual 'Hey, Space Marines! What chapter are you working on?' line. When I mentioned it was Relictors, he almost did a double-take before confessing he always zoned out at that point in the script because 'everyone always says Ultramarines'.

Once the script had been torn up, we had a decent little conversation.

Honestly, I tend to disarm the GW drones in a similar manner. When they ask me the usual "What army do you collect?" question I like to smirk at them and say "Squats!".
That usually makes them miss a beat in their delivery at the very least. Sometimes it completly derails their sales pitch. The best response I ever got was young staffer who looked at me with a glazed over look in his eyes and simply said "What are those?"
Of course it can back fire of course. The worst reply I ever got was the clown who started in on how "you Squat players just need to get over it. It's about time to build a new army wouldn't you say? Why don't you try.....".

Talk about messing with the Red Shirt's minds, you ought to go into a GW store and set up a game of Rogue Trader. That gets a pretty amusing reaction I can assure you!

TR

Trench-Raider wrote:

Talk about messing with the Red Shirt's minds, you ought to go into a GW store and set up a game of Rogue Trader. That gets a pretty amusing reaction I can assure you!

TR

After I heard the staff at the LA Battle bunker talking about how corporate was going to ban games of 4th ed in GW stores after the book came out (while they were talking about how they wouldn't be getting enough books to go around either, thinking that GW banning 4th altogether was rather stupid from any sense) I snickered and told my friend we should walk in and play 2nd ed. I'll prolly try it next time I'm down there.

Trench-Raider wrote:Honestly, I tend to disarm the GW drones in a similar manner. When they ask me the usual "What army do you collect?" question I like to smirk at them and say "Squats!".
That usually makes them miss a beat in their delivery at the very least. Sometimes it completly derails their sales pitch. The best response I ever got was young staffer who looked at me with a glazed over look in his eyes and simply said "What are those?"
Of course it can back fire of course. The worst reply I ever got was the clown who started in on how "you Squat players just need to get over it. It's about time to build a new army wouldn't you say? Why don't you try.....".

Talk about messing with the Red Shirt's minds, you ought to go into a GW store and set up a game of Rogue Trader. That gets a pretty amusing reaction I can assure you!

TR

The only 40k rule books I have are Rogue Trader, 'Ere We Go and Waaargh the Orks! Are you telling me those aren't current? And I didn't even know Squats were gone until I read your post and looked at wikipedia (alhough that does explain why I didn't see any space dwarves in Dawn of War). It is bad enough that Games Workshop sales staff can't take the special needs of old people into consideration, now I'm going to have to start demanding this website comes with spoiler warnings.

Yeah, I joined as Squats were on the way out. After two years of saving I rang Mail Order to have a very suprised troll tell me that there wasn't a Squat codex. I was a bit dissapointed.

Good to see you back gaming and posting on Dakka. Do stick around, and try to get past the initial pitch stage with GW employees and you'll find most of 'em are nice guys.

The only GW Store I visit on a semi-regular (a couple times a year) is the Chicago Battle Bunker - and I have to say that the staff there is great. I also think that they, in general, have less turnover there than is usual. Maybe the first time I showed up there, I got the hard sell, but since then, even though I only stop by 2-4 times a year, they still recognize me.

I've never really felt patronized by GW employees. Most of the time, they look so relieved to see someone who isn't a teenager that they are really cool, ask me what armies I play, ask me if I saw the latest thing, but are never, ever pushy. I've been to several stores both in SoCal and in the Bay Area.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Hmmm.. Interesting, I would agree any good salesman in any retail outlet better be able to identify what that customer needs.
Sometimes it is peace and quiet. Sometimes, I just want to look and plan. Sometimes I want to talk about the hobby in general.
Try pushing me into buying something... well it just might work... good for you... now if you told me bloodletters were the only way to go with a 40k demon army so you convinced me to by 4 boxes of them and then I went through the time of painting, playing (and losing repeatedly) I might just not trust you the next time when you tell me that Vypers are the key to Eldar success... As a matter of fact, I might stop frequenting stores with non-helpful idiots who just want me to buy 100 dollars of crap.

The true problem is that you may get a polite, helpful and even informed opinion to help you out but if you are a clunker or sell me
$h!t that is an absolute waste of my time and money I will be understandably resentful, reluctant to go to your store again and worst of all... I will tell my gaming friends of the bad experience I had at that particular store and recommend the extra 30 minute or 1 hour drive to another store is worth it because you can't trust store X.

If GW isn't serious about this part of the hobby, enjoy the $100 you talked me into spending in one trip and be ignorant of the fact that I am spending hundreds of dollars now in a competitor's store from now on and perhaps on non-GW merchandise because of the lackluster honesty in sales or the mercurial changes in codexes that one-up my investment into non-competitiveness.

Trench-Raider wrote:
Honestly, I tend to disarm the GW drones in a similar manner. When they ask me the usual "What army do you collect?" question I like to smirk at them and say "Squats!".
That usually makes them miss a beat in their delivery at the very least. Sometimes it completly derails their sales pitch. The best response I ever got was young staffer who looked at me with a glazed over look in his eyes and simply said "What are those?"
Of course it can back fire of course. The worst reply I ever got was the clown who started in on how "you Squat players just need to get over it. It's about time to build a new army wouldn't you say? Why don't you try.....".

Talk about messing with the Red Shirt's minds, you ought to go into a GW store and set up a game of Rogue Trader. That gets a pretty amusing reaction I can assure you!

TR

Someone did that to me....

I showed him my squat conversions i've been beavering away on and suggested how to do it for the best value.
It turned into a lovely conversation about the pros and cons of different lists we could use for our squat armies.




I suppose I should jump in here.....

I have seen all the myriad types of staff mentioned- but i do have to question what is the actual majority.
Now I remember in the states when I lived over there that I did have substancially more of the ones mentioned by the OP, however since moving back here- and now having worked alongside alot of these people- they are becoming the minority.

I think as a staff member one of the oddest things to cope with is the "leave me alone" type of person.
I can understand why some people will do such, if they've had poor experiences in the past-

However I would recommend them seeing the staff as abit more human- and occassionally try to have a normal conversation with 'em
There are alot of staffers (and the numbers do seem to be growing) who have what I see as the right idea- the hobby first, sales second- If the staff member can find out about you better, understand what your working towards, they are far more likely to be able to recoomend the right type of product. This can be as simple as pointing you at the paints- or it can be as in depth of helping you write a new army list, showing you how to do something or suggesting different models. I know from a purely business perspective it makes sense to tell every person who walks in the door about the new stuff, but I know from experience- you get far better results by getting to know people and being as helpful as you can with their particular needs. I'm more than happy to talk to anyone who walks in the door and get to hear about their take on the hobby- sometimes this will lead to an obvious "sale" situation, sometimes to suggesting a hobby lesson, and sometimes the conversation will end naturally and i'll leave them to have a wander. (and for those who care tell them what whimsical plans i'm working on right now- incidently someone really needs to remind me to take some pics and post them on here)

If I did anymore then I recognise i'd be too pushy. If I did any less- i'd risk seeming to ignore people. What you need to ask is- how is someone going to strike a balance in that day in day out....?
Its difficult- i'll admit that, its REALLY easy to slip into either of the extremes- but it becomes alot easier if you get treated like a human back.

Nothing kills your will to work than someone being grumpy, short and rude to you- as soon as you say hi. I've seen some incredible displays of rudeness towards me- i'm pretty sure because of the shirt I was wearing.
The other killer is the time vampire- who will suck the time and life out of you... as some people class them the "weirdos" that a gaming store will attract. The best by far was still the guy who was convinced that the world was a lie, the 40k universe was real and the shop manager was the emp. reborn..... (he then started stalking the manager)

I guess to get to the centre of what i'm saying is- in order to be a staffer- the person has to be a hobbist first, if you want- try and engage them as such if you want to. Or just ask them for some nice easy directions to what your after. (little tip- if your in a rush and don't want to be bothered- write a list of what you need and just come in with the list out- you may get asked a few questions- but you are sure to get the stuff you need- maybe without having to go more than 10ft from the door )

If you have had something that you REALLY didn't like with the customer service- there are a few avenues- talk to the manager and explain the situation, write a letter to the manager or call/write to the cust. services dept. If there is shenaigans going on- then the person can be told and it can get sorted

Well, at any fringe geek-genre hobby store you tend to have two types of people: the well-adjusted, successful individuals who see the hobby as an important, but marginal part of their life, and the hardcore gamerists that see the hobby as the most important part of life. These people both work there and shop there.

Whenever one type meets the other type, friction will inevitably happen. Well adjusted employees are creeped out by the smelly and personality-deficient gamerists, and polite normal gamers are creeped out by the boorish and personality-deficient salesgeek.

You just gotta call it like you see it.

Vaktathi wrote:

Trench-Raider wrote:

Talk about messing with the Red Shirt's minds, you ought to go into a GW store and set up a game of Rogue Trader. That gets a pretty amusing reaction I can assure you!

TR

After I heard the staff at the LA Battle bunker talking about how corporate was going to ban games of 4th ed in GW stores after the book came out (while they were talking about how they wouldn't be getting enough books to go around either, thinking that GW banning 4th altogether was rather stupid from any sense) I snickered and told my friend we should walk in and play 2nd ed. I'll prolly try it next time I'm down there.

I insist on the use of Virus Outbreak!!!!

New customers bring in the most revenue for GW. Once a gamer has all the models they want they don't spend much on product. From my observations, there is little benifit for them to even be in the store other than to hopefully generate enthusiasm.

In my local area I've seen GW turn away game clubs and shut down challenge boards. I suspect some of the management even tries to push veterans away (at least from what I've seen). They only care about kids and new customers.

As much as I (and many veteran gamers) don't like it... GW's hard sales tactics are probably the best thing for them. They are more likely to generate sales to new players especially if they are young and impressionable, but even older players who are new to the games can be impressionable. And if they push away veterans (young or old)... why should they care? Veterans don't spend much. Like any business, you're better off catering to the customers that will generate the most revenue and ultimately profits.

~Logic

Some vets spend a lot (not me.)

I was welcomed to the local vets night -- no players under 30 years old or something, I don't remember.

GW no doubt has an eye on the paedo issue.

I don't want to play with 12 year olds anyway.

Logic wrote:New customers bring in the most revenue for GW. Once a gamer has all the models they want they don't spend much on product. From my observations, there is little benifit for them to even be in the store other than to hopefully generate enthusiasm.

In my local area I've seen GW turn away game clubs and shut down challenge boards. I suspect some of the management even tries to push veterans away (at least from what I've seen). They only care about kids and new customers.

As much as I (and many veteran gamers) don't like it... GW's hard sales tactics are probably the best thing for them. They are more likely to generate sales to new players especially if they are young and impressionable, but even older players who are new to the games can be impressionable. And if they push away veterans (young or old)... why should they care? Veterans don't spend much. Like any business, you're better off catering to the customers that will generate the most revenue and ultimately profits.

~Logic

Then that is a foolish GW store. Vets generally have nice painted armies, and are great cheerleaders for the hobby. That's wierd that that would happen.