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the range still sells very well, and does indeed out strip Fantasy.

This is adverse to anything I have seen but would love to see your info stating this. Maybe if more stores saw there was hope they would push it harder.

George Spiggott wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:And although sales have shrunk somewhat without the movies to drive awareness, the range still sells very well, and does indeed out strip Fantasy.

This is conjecture on your part GW do not release such figures, although I do not doubt that it is true.

It would be nice if GW widened their portfolio of fully supported games. Since LotR was released it seems that GW sells three games to exactly the same demographic (14 year old male gamers) I can’t help thinking that this is probably their biggest problem.

GW may not release such figures, but GW is nothing but transparent when they have a real money-maker. Usually, something like LotR would have shuffled off to SG within a year of initial release. That didn't happen. Instead, LotR was ultimately promoted to a main game with full support. The only logical conclusion is that LotR sold well, and continues sell well enough to be comparable to "not 40k, but sells well enough to be a primary game".

LotR has much broader appeal than 40k or WFB, and I do not doubt that is much of the reason it outsells WFB. I suspect that there are quite a few adults who buy LotR, having seen the starters in Borders, B&N, and similar stores. The only thing is that LotR doesn't overlap WFB or 40k in the same way that WFB and 40k overlap each other.

To all of you LotR-haters, I have to wonder how many of you are into hardcore gay pr0n, instead of Sundance Indy movies. That is, I suspect (but cannot prove) that gay pr0n outsells Sundance. This, despite Sundance being able to get national notice for their little show. Just because it's not mainstream, and doesn't overlap your personal tastes, that doesn't mean it doesn't sell well to other people!

I've played in the LotR tournament that last two years at Adepticon. There were 10 or 12 people the first year, and 20 the second year. The first year, I think about half the LotR players didn't play anything else at Adepticon, they came for a 3 round LotR tourney only. Last year, I think out of 20, I think there were 16 people who came only to play LotR (and the 4 people that played 40k were me and my 3 friends). Now, some of the players said that they did play WFB or 40k, but didn't want to play in those tournies.

LotR has a decent fanbase. JJ has said that Legions of Middle-Earth and the other recent supplements have sold better than expected. I would guess that about 2/3 of people buying LotR don't buy WFB or 40k. Also consider that LotR has a build-in appeal for Tolkien fans, who may collect and paint the minis, but not play LotR or any other GW game.

LotR is a good skirmish game. I think the problem for most GW players is that the original game was too much about 9 heroes vs. dozens of nameless villians. It was like Batman vs. the Joker's henchmen, there's no doubt how the fight will end. With Legions, you're more likely to see 2 heroes and 35 henchman vs. 2 heroes and 35 henchmen, and that's a lot more interesting game.

If LotR makes money for GW, that is a good thing. As someone said, a business's first duty to its customers is to stay in business. Anything that makes GW money is good in my book.

To all of you LotR-haters, I have to wonder how many of you are into hardcore gay pr0n, instead of Sundance Indy movies. That is, I suspect (but cannot prove) that gay pr0n outsells Sundance. This, despite Sundance being able to get national notice for their little show. Just because it's not mainstream, and doesn't overlap your personal tastes, that doesn't mean it doesn't sell well to other people!

Wow...so much for an intelligent conversation

JohnHwangDD wrote:GW may not release such figures, but GW is nothing but transparent when they have a real money-maker. Usually, something like LotR would have shuffled off to SG within a year of initial release. That didn't happen. Instead, LotR was ultimately promoted to a main game with full support. The only logical conclusion is that LotR sold well, and continues sell well enough to be comparable to "not 40k, but sells well enough to be a primary game".

Thanks for agreeing with me. You do raise a good point. Recently GW have moved LotR to smaller shelves at the back of the store at my local GW. Perhaps this is a local phenomenon. Perhaps I've overestimated LotR's sales capability. It sold well in the past but does it now? If what you say is true then perhaps not.

Shame about the rest of your post.

well ive spent about 700 bucks on lotr and i still have those models but i only play 40k now its not because lotr is a bad game its way better then most people think and a 1000 point battle should not take 7 hours STELEK it takes 2 to 3 hours tops and even less when you know how to play the game ive got a 3000 point uruk army and i can play a game in 4 hours tops thats over 150 models in the army so unless any of you people that bad mouth lotr really know how to play you really should just sit there with your mouth shut. and GW really does sell alot of lotr stuff but there haveing trouble getting people to go to events for lotr.

Fishboy wrote:

To all of you LotR-haters, I have to wonder how many of you are into hardcore gay pr0n, instead of Sundance Indy movies.

Wow...so much for an intelligent conversation

What? You don't think the analogy holds? Both of those are film niches with limited information in the same way that LotR and 40k/WFB are gaming niches.

i would love to see GW's actual sales figures acros the board, not just LoTR. then we can really discuss this and from what i have heard is that LoTR will hit us around december

the basics of LOTR vs everything else- is LOTR as a range outsells any single army bar space marines


so if you argue LOTR should be dropped- why?
there are just as many people interested as there are in any given army- drop eldar, dark elves, chaos...?

Alot of people seem to bad mouth LOTR- but how many of you have played it properly?

i dont mind LoTR but i prefer 40K but that is just my personal preference. but they are still fun. i dont have anything against them and as it has been said, if it is Making GW money then its great in my book

just waiting to see the new ork characters, only seen blurry pics so far, but from what i see, badrukk looks crap.
anyone got bette pics of badrukk, snikrot and zagstruk?

The whole LotR licence malarkey reminds me of something WotC did some years ago. WotC wanted to produce a Harry Potter CCG. They were told by the HP people that they had to prove that WotC could get a license from a major brand and produce a CCG for that brand before the HP people signed on.

WotC went out and got the rights to produce a Looney Tunes CCG just so they could get the rights to the Harry Potter CCG. Why? So no one else could. The LT CCG was a one-release wonder and wasn't supported and fell off the radar. The HP CCG held on for a few releases, but went the way of the Dodo too.

So it is my belief that GW went after the LotR license so hard is because they did not want anyone else to get the licence. The LotR people knew this and promptly bent GW over the barrel and made them sign some outrageous contract to get said license. I still want to shake the hand of the person who brokered that deal. They stuck it to GW, and delayed my plastic Cadians for over a year. I keep wondering what would have happened with Specialist Games and the main gamelines had GW not received the LotR licence.

My $.02 USD worth.

Bignutter wrote:the basics of LOTR vs everything else- is LOTR as a range outsells any single army bar space marines

More supposition, you are guessing. I doubt very much that you know this information.

Bignutter wrote:the basics of LOTR vs everything else- is LOTR as a range outsells any single army bar space marines

I'd believe that.

Think about the 40k and WFB armies that are NOT Space Marines. Most of them don't have particularly wide followings. For example, 40k IG, DH/GK, WH/SoB, Necrons are all small sellers. Eldar, Nids, Tau and (now) Orks sell OK, but in much smaller volume than Marines.

But LotR as an entire product range? In aggregate, yeah, they probably do quite well for GW compared to other "NOT Marines".

Le Grognard wrote:So it is my belief that GW went after the LotR license so hard is because they did not want anyone else to get the licence. The LotR people knew this and promptly bent GW over the barrel and made them sign some outrageous contract to get said license.

OK, and what is your basis for this supposition? None of what you say is backed by any observable fact or even reasonable conjecture based on such fact.

Fishboy wrote:

I seem to recall reading (fairly recently, even) that LotR was outselling WHFB.

That made me laugh but I would not mind you finding the article.

The reality of it is that LOTR is a drain on GW and its resources. The game did very well when the movie were still in the theaters. Once those ended things REALLY slowed down. Most independant retailers stock it due to GW requirements and that is usually limited to the starter sets. The game started to strugle and some dimwad signed a new contract to continue the game for another 5-10 years. Most people agree that GW's struggles of the last few years are heavily due to LOTR...I think it is more related to bad decision and LOTR.

A great majority of the models sold for LOTR are actually just for people that are into the LOTR movies. They buy the mini's to paint and put on a shelf. If you sell LOTR mini's in blisters at some type of convention you can sell bunches!!!

I did play the game a few times and the rules are pretty good IIRC but I just was not that into the story line and I think that is the limiting factor of the game.

Oh and by the way....What ever happened to Dark Eldar in Nov/Dec?

I disagree. Everyone who dislikes LOTR says the same thing. "LOTR stold my White Dwarf space and my plastics and the rules all suck because the good writers do LOTR." boo hoo hoo!

LOTR is not as popular in the US. GW seems to have a problem figuring out what the "Yanks" will buy. Hence Forgeworld's complete inability to forsee increased sales after APOC. We are more tournament minded. Give us official rules and we will buy it.

I think a large portion of GW's problems over the last few years had more to do with the sinking money into WHOL and the Warhammer 40K games and stumbling a few times. If you remember the first price increases started after the first hiccups with the video games.

SW? Stop the press [lol always wanted to say that], my source has told me that GW has been thinking/working on a new SW codex, not a WD type of patch but a real full shiny one, to hit us in a few months [as early as late december (but i doubt that)].

Anyone else haer about this?

Dear sweet baby [deleted] Jesus. What a load of crap this thread has become. What is this, a contest to see who can post the most "I SAID A SWEAR!" they can't back up? Why are you people arguing? Neither "side" is ever going to be able to produce enough credible proof to satisfy the other. I can understand people voiceing their opinions and such, but this is going waaaay intot he "i have NOTHING better to do" line, ya think?

Heavygear, find that dang article that Fishboy wants to see. I'd LOVE to see it. Give me proof, not vapid back-and-forth.

I have to agree with JHDD. Not necc. b/c of his opinion, but because of his empiricism. Jesus wept, someone whip out some proof.

-=Edited by Iorek for Profanity - Even though we have a filter, please refrain from using profanity. There are better ways to express yourself.=-

Simple soloution, check with your local FLAGs. Most of them will say abour the same things, at least the ones in southern Sweden does. LOTR isnt selling alot these days here at least, maybe its diffrent in other places?

Heavygear wrote:I disagree. Everyone who dislikes LOTR says the same thing. "LOTR stold my White Dwarf space and my plastics and the rules all suck because the good writers do LOTR." boo hoo hoo!

I don't. I dislike it because at this point, GW is flogging a creative dead horse. They've released great miniatures for all of the main factions of the trilogy, as well as several that are mentioned only tangentially in the story. There's very little for them to do unless they go straight into inventing stuff. Some of them are decent ideas (camel-riding tribesmen of Harad seems reasonable enough) others don't feel right (half-trolls).

My White Dwarf was dead long before LOTR ever came out and the rules for my beloved IG had always sucked. I need find no scapegoats for either.

I can not fathom for the life of me why Skaven or Lizardmen would be before Beasts of Chao's. Skaven haven't been updated or Lizards for a while its true;
but Beats of Chao's book is messed way up considering that there is no longer any Mortals or Demons they can take.... Leaves me with a ?_?