Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Regwon wrote:golly i dont knw why nobody thought of this before! guns that only work occationally! i should suggest this to millitary organisations aroound the globe. im sure theyed be thrilled to have their soldiers no nothing 42% of the time.

what a genius you are

Out of line and out of context, champ.

It fails to have an effect against AV 12 42% of the time. It has success of some sort 58% of the time.

Taking numbers out of context and then insulting someone about it? I don't always like how Nurglich shoots people down, but you were way off the mark on this one.

Let's clarify something quick. It is absolutely not successful 58% of the time.

S2-5 it does nothing whatsoever.

S6-7 it still does almost nothing.

S8-10, we're doing something. About 1/3 of the time we can do something. Alright!

And rolls of 11-12 our crew dies.

That is definitely not my definition of 58% success.

Actually, on a roll of 11-12 a krew member dies and the shot goes off at S10.

So, to correct you:

S6, 14% - Glancing hits and shaken if glanced
S7-10, 58% - Glancing hits or penetrating hits and shaken if either.

So actually a 72% chance of doing something to AV12 if it hits, 14% shaken and a glancing hit, 58% shaken and either a glancing or a penetrating hit.

With a 50% change of hitting, that's something like a 36% chance of shaking the vehicle and some other glancing or penetrating hit per gun. A ~29% chance if you just count the hits that can penetrate, as well as glance.

I'd just want to point out I did include the Zzap gun in my debatedly useful analysis.

2 batteries of 3 destroy an av12 vehicle 9 times out of 100 in one turn of shooting, ignoring any other effects, assuming they can re-roll misses from ammo runts.

You can decide how useful that is in the context of an army.

Their only real purpose is guaranteeing that something doesn't shoot.

personally i take tankbustas and Zzap gunz and leave lootas behind. mostly due to my own taste and style of taste.

The zzap gunz are fun to make and really scare opponents, as they take 250+ pts land raider and if it does nothing, its a liability. plus the ability [sometimes] to prang tanks scares them

cervidal wrote:Out of line and out of context, champ.

It fails to have an effect against AV 12 42% of the time. It has success of some sort 58% of the time.

Taking numbers out of context and then insulting someone about it? I don't always like how Nurglich shoots people down, but you were way off the mark on this one.

neither out of line, nor out of context.

the context was effecting AV12 vehicles, which it will only possibly ever do 58% of the time. the idea that comething will only possibly do anything 58% of the time is incredible. do you think marines would be good if their bolters only worked 58% of the time (let along having to hit/wound/save)?

Regwon wrote:neither out of line, nor out of context.

the context was effecting AV12 vehicles, which it will only possibly ever do 58% of the time. the idea that comething will only possibly do anything 58% of the time is incredible. do you think marines would be good if their bolters only worked 58% of the time (let along having to hit/wound/save)?

The sarcasm was completely out of line, not up for debate.

As for your lack of context, yes, that IS poor argument. 58% effectiveness against a vehicle, as the weapon was being discussed. Let's actually put it into context:

A straight S7 gun - affects the vehicle 34% of the time

A straight S8 gun - affects the vehicle 50% of the time

A straight S9 gun - affects the vehicle 67% of the time.

A straight S10 gun - affects the vehicle 83% of the time.

So, with proper context away from your need to be insulting, first shows that no weapon is going to be 100% effective. In fact, this weapon, when range is disregarded, is more effective than a missle launcher, and not quite as effective as a lascannon. Given the Orks have access to Rokkits, with no larger gun available to them in an infantry unit, shows that, per shot, yes, the Zzap Gun is going to be the weapon of choice.

Sorry you're somehow insulted by a 58% success rate.

Cervidal: understand that some people find language more offensive than others. Regwon's response are pretty close to the norm on Dakka, however. It's not a friendly and fluffy sort of place. Especially the Tactics/YMDC forums.

Sorry you're somehow insulted by a 58% success rate.

It is not a 58% success rate. It is an automatic 42% chance to fail thrown on top of all of the other chances to fail. That is a huge difference!

You just like to be dense, don't you?

All of this assumed the hit, for starters. Second, 42% failure rate, 58% success rate, what the heck are you getting at? Half-empty versus half-full?

Assuming the hit isn't nearly as bad as you think it is, anyways, given the ease at which those grot guns will have ammo runts. How many guns do you know, beyond characters sitting on BS 5 or better, that are 75% likely to hit?

I have no idea what you're attempting to prove, although of between the two of us I'd suspect you're the one that'd sink in mercury.

Regwon's point: guns that hit half the time, glance or penetrate half the time, and then on top of that, don't work a further 42% of the time aren't good.

Your point: guns that hit half the time, glance or penetrate half the time, and then on top of that, only work 58% of the time are good.

So now we're exploring a difference of opinion. Do more people agree with the opinion that 42% failure, thrown on top of all the other normal percentage of failure, make a unit mechanically 'good' or 'bad'?

You can call it a glass half empty or half full, but doesn't change the fact the glass is filled with goat urine.

Traskel wrote:I'd just want to point out I did include the Zzap gun in my debatedly useful analysis.

2 batteries of 3 destroy an av12 vehicle 9 times out of 100 in one turn of shooting, ignoring any other effects, assuming they can re-roll misses from ammo runts.

You can decide how useful that is in the context of an army.

Their only real purpose is guaranteeing that something doesn't shoot.

Zzap guns are truly useless. For just a few more points than a battery of 3 zzap guns you could have 3 killa kans with grotzookas. Only a plonker would choose zzap guns over killa kans. It's true.

sourclams wrote:I have no idea what you're attempting to prove, although of between the two of us I'd suspect you're the one that'd sink in mercury.

Regwon's point: guns that hit half the time, glance or penetrate half the time, and then on top of that, don't work a further 42% of the time aren't good.

Your point: guns that hit half the time, glance or penetrate half the time, and then on top of that, only work 58% of the time are good.

So now we're exploring a difference of opinion. Do more people agree with the opinion that 42% failure, thrown on top of all the other normal percentage of failure, make a unit mechanically 'good' or 'bad'?

You can call it a glass half empty or half full, but doesn't change the fact the glass is filled with goat urine.

Give me two guns in the Ork book more consistant against AV 12 or better than the Zzap Gun. Wait, even one doesn't exist.

Even Marines only have two guns more reliable available to their infantry, and they're less likely to hit (Compared to a Zzap Gun with an ammo runt reroll) unless they're sitting in a Devastator squad with a living sergeant. And that Devastator Squad is a helluva lot more expensive than a battery of Zzap Guns.

This is my point. You keep looking out of context. You're throwing them out as an option when they're a gun with the highest rate of success against armor.

What do YOU consider good odds for a gun? Because few other armies' infantry heavy weapons are going to have more consistant success against AV12+.

A Loota. It's better. It's more survivable. It's more consistent.

The Zzap gun being the best gun in the Ork codex (arguable, and in my opinion false) does not mean that they're somehow a must-take. This is the context that you're ignoring. They're not a must-have item, they're not a useful item, and they're not an item you want to base your tactics around because what they are is a gimmick item. They're funny and silly and everyone will have one or two stories of how they OMGPWND something when needed, but for the most part they fail as an item. Lootas are better at shooting AV12. End of story.

If you're up against Land Raiders or Monoliths, kill the other stuff or use Power Klaws on the charge. You don't flush out a list by trying to force it into niches that it isn't meant to be good at. In the case of Orks, this is firing high Strength, long range weaponry. They're not meant to do it, they're not able to do it, and having one item that can do a mediocre job does not mean that they have to attempt to use it.

cervidal wrote:

sourclams wrote:I have no idea what you're attempting to prove, although of between the two of us I'd suspect you're the one that'd sink in mercury.

Regwon's point: guns that hit half the time, glance or penetrate half the time, and then on top of that, don't work a further 42% of the time aren't good.

Your point: guns that hit half the time, glance or penetrate half the time, and then on top of that, only work 58% of the time are good.

So now we're exploring a difference of opinion. Do more people agree with the opinion that 42% failure, thrown on top of all the other normal percentage of failure, make a unit mechanically 'good' or 'bad'?

You can call it a glass half empty or half full, but doesn't change the fact the glass is filled with goat urine.

Give me two guns in the Ork book more consistant against AV 12 or better than the Zzap Gun. Wait, even one doesn't exist.

Even Marines only have two guns more reliable available to their infantry, and they're less likely to hit (Compared to a Zzap Gun with an ammo runt reroll) unless they're sitting in a Devastator squad with a living sergeant. And that Devastator Squad is a helluva lot more expensive than a battery of Zzap Guns.

This is my point. You keep looking out of context. You're throwing them out as an option when they're a gun with the highest rate of success against armor.

What do YOU consider good odds for a gun? Because few other armies' infantry heavy weapons are going to have more consistant success against AV12+.

Zzap guns are probably the worst shooting AT option in the codex. Why do you think they're effective? Did you even read the contents of the thread? Two units of Zzap guns are less effective than 1 unit of either Lootas or Tankbustas. Three units look like they're probably as effective, but then you no longer have heavy slots to use.

tankbustas are "Da Bomb" squad and i always take 1 squad of 8 of them in any list i play. Sure they can't take out LR spam, that job is for "Da Boss" with his trusty klaw. However... comboed up in a hijacked truck with a kff nearby, my tankbustas totally PWN any AV 13 or less vehicle that ive come across (exceptions are those stinking soul grinders). Use them without abandon for they are part of the ork army just as any nob squad is. BONUS: after all of your "Have to shoot/assault" targets are dead you get a squad of rokkits that start to really shine!

YAY, Alphus gets it ^^

Whatever you do, don't take any of those bomb squigs... the are such a point sink....j/k.

Funny those discussions for sure.
Reminds me to all those RTS Games discussions.
You might want to add some more open mind into those discussions.
I´ve played WHF for a couple of years and as I started with Imperium many players told me I wont see victory with them because I get eaten alive with my weak humans. I havent lost many games at all and proofed tactical thinking > usual powergamer list. They didnt expect you to a) be a serious gamer and 2) you "just" need to outplay him in the strategical part. There are so many "if´s" in TT that many progamers are tending to try to eliminate as many as possible and come along with Nob Bika Lists - for example. After GT the discussions start how to beat those lists without losing ground vs other lists. They watch what has been used to great success, come to dakka-dakka and try to figure out what´s the meanest stuff you can get out of an Ork Kodex. Than they do same with the other races and build their own list completely forgetting about a lot of other units in everyones army book.
You maybe able or no, you surely can outplay Tankbustaz but because you dont expect them you maybe wont have the right counter at hand. And I guess my opponent wont take me serious nor think I have a plan with those Bustaz so he will be completely surprised when they play in their/my intended role. A good player will be able to react on unforeseen circumstances but that doesnt mean he will come out on top.
It´s the pro´s sturdy and sometimes arrogance that they think about some units/playstyles, cant imagine a successfull way to use them and that´s it. Those units wont be used by them until another one come up and owns with them.
It´s not my point to say Bustaz are UBAR but trying to let some people rethink their opinion. A long chess/rts and not so long tabletop career tought me at least one thing:
The unforeseen stuff can be pretty devastating even more if you undestimate your opponent because it seems he´s doing "newbish" stuff.
I predict we will see some other cheese besides Nob Bikaz and Loota Core lists in the near future.

Something on all those theoretical stuff:

I read so much about if you do this, I will do that and so on and so forth. Guess what? I do something you wont get until it´s too late. Good luck reacting to that.
What I mean is, it´s allways easy to say I will do that if you do that but it´s just easy because I tell you what I would do or why I think I can be successfull with doing this or that.
In a real game with a smartass opponent you might wont know what he plans to do. So Theoretical discussions are allways screwed at one point.


edit: Hopefully it´s readable. Im frickin tired and maybe lost my mind during the written down.

Alphus wrote:Whatever you do, don't take any of those bomb squigs... the are such a point sink

5pts for a bomb to hit the nearest tank in 18" with S8 auto hit and allows the boyz to shoot at another tank, hell they are the best!!

Hello there

As an eldar player new to orks i am on this dilema myself, lootas or tankbustas?
But since i don't know what S7 is in eldar codex, i am gonna trust the S8 hehe

Well, actually i end up at tankbustas because they have cool models and very orky
but mainly because if they get used correctly they can be very rewarding.
You can be hitting 2 tanks a turn with the squigs, which hit at 2+ and not even need LOS, you can close LOS to tanks so you hit a unit if needed,
you have a nob with claw and bosspole very cheap, so we can discuss survivability compared to lootas,
you can charge tanks with 3 nice weapons and plenty of bombs, and if you have none left, at any other unit with S10 weapons at 2-3 Initiative...

On the other hand, you have little to many S7 hits at whatever you choose.

So, if you are a player that can handle a strategic challenge and get the most of it, then the choice is simple.
(luck is another matter, which i don't include in my choice, especially when you don't even have some decent BS)

Anyway, you have yourselves allready said what advantages and disadvantages both units have but what i wanted was to ask for some specifications.
I am considering of using a battlewagon for the tankbustas, so i was wondering about few things...
-If the battlewagon is the only vehicle in my army and on the bomb squig dice i roll an 1, do i hit the battlewagon? If yes, do i hit the side that faces the closest enemy vehicle?
-Due to glory hogs, if i have them in the battlewagon, they have to get out to assault if there is a vehicle in range, right? (ofcourse if they have not shot any other vehicles)
-So if they are in range to assault a vehicle which legaly can, and they have to... is there any use for the boarding plank? as i get it, if they are 2" of a vehicle to use it, they can't cause they have to assault it anyway

azalin_r3x wrote:Hello there

As an eldar player new to orks i am on this dilema myself, lootas or tankbustas?
But since i don't know what S7 is in eldar codex, i am gonna trust the S8 hehe

Well, actually i end up at tankbustas because they have cool models and very orky
but mainly because if they get used correctly they can be very rewarding.
You can be hitting 2 tanks a turn with the squigs, which hit at 2+ and not even need LOS, you can close LOS to tanks so you hit a unit if needed,
you have a nob with claw and bosspole very cheap, so we can discuss survivability compared to lootas,
you can charge tanks with 3 nice weapons and plenty of bombs, and if you have none left, at any other unit with S10 weapons at 2-3 Initiative...

On the other hand, you have little to many S7 hits at whatever you choose.

So, if you are a player that can handle a strategic challenge and get the most of it, then the choice is simple.
(luck is another matter, which i don't include in my choice, especially when you don't even have some decent BS)

Lootas always above Tankbustas. The fact they don't have Tankhunters and they do have gloryhogs wreks their efficency. 15pt models with a six up save and with a base leadership of 7 is going to have problems, especially if your plan is to get them CLOSER to your enemies.

Now for the second group of questions.

Anyway, you have yourselves allready said what advantages and disadvantages both units have but what i wanted was to ask for some specifications.
I am considering of using a battlewagon for the tankbustas, so i was wondering about few things...

If you really like tankbustas, then a unit in a battlewagon is an O.K. idea only if you run a battlewagon list. I mean if you have at least three wagons in your list. A unit of tankbustas in a battlewagon is a large juicy target, and, if you don't have any other armoured targets, it will bear the brunt of the collective anti-tank of the entire enemy army. It will blow up, even if you have a KFF mek somewhere. Then the battlewagon is a liability, because everyone inside is going to take a str 3 hit. That doesn't sound so bad until your realize your t-shirt saves are probably going to do jack. If you have a unit of 15 tankbustas in a wagon, an average of 5 is are going to die when the wagon blows up. Poof, 75 points gone in smoke.

-If the battlewagon is the only vehicle in my army and on the bomb squig dice i roll an 1, do i hit the battlewagon? If yes, do i hit the side that faces the closest enemy vehicle?

Only if is within 18" of the unit that released the squig. The facing it hits is determined from the unit itself. If your squad is behind the wagon, it's getting a str 8 hit up its tailpipe.

-Due to glory hogs, if i have them in the battlewagon, they have to get out to assault if there is a vehicle in range, right? (ofcourse if they have not shot any other vehicles)

Yes.

-So if they are in range to assault a vehicle which legaly can, and they have to... is there any use for the boarding plank? as i get it, if they are 2" of a vehicle to use it, they can't cause they have to assault it anyway

You just have to assault the unit, it dosen't say that you have to get out and assault. If you can assault from the plank, I think that would satisfy the "you have to assault" rule that glory hunters possess. only the most irritating person would try to fight you on that.

But yeah, If you have a solitary battlewagon with tankbustas in them, and no KFF mek, kiss that baby goodbye on turn 1-2.

I've played orks for a few years now and when the new codex for Orks came out i initially had the same dilemma. Through actually playing this i have found more success with my tankbustas at removing tanks (any and all, including AV14) than i have found with the lootas. It may just be in the way i play them though.

I have found that it is pretty simple to screen them to prevent the glory hogs from being to much trouble and even when they are forced to shoot at a lower priority target i can normally keep them behind enough of my other Orks to keep them from being mulched.

Otherwise i have on occasion taken a transport for my nobs and had it drop them by the Tankbustas then loaded up the tankbustas to get them up to the armor quickly. Once a tankbusta gets into assault with a tank it will usually be over (anything besides a land raider normally falls to a tank hammer and land raiders still get pretty beaten up by them)

Like i said, this is all based on my personal use of the tankbustas but i find them to be a pretty solid choice in the ork arsenal for dealing with tanks

I must say, I find the 42%-58% perspective to the effectiveness discussion... interesting.

Rather than looking at the probability that the strength will be high enough to damage the vehicle, shouldn't we be looking at the probability that a given shot will damage the vehicle?

Taking into account the potential number of shots, the BS 2 v BS 3 with re-roll, and the variable strength of the Zzap gun, compare the effectiveness of Lootas to Zzap Guns:

Lootas will penetrate an average of 11.1% of the time and will glance an average of 11.1% of the time. This is based on an expectation of 2/3 hits per Loota and the 7+d6 total penetration.

Zzap Guns will penetrate an average of 18.1% of the time and will glance an average of 9.0% of the time. This is based on an expectation of 3/4 hits per Zzap Gun and the S+d6 total penetration, where S is 2d6 to a maximum of 10.

To put this into context, this means that Lootas will deal minor damage (Shake or Stun) 11.1% of time, major damage (Immobilize or Weapon Destroyed) 7.4% of the time, and destroy the target 3.7% of the time.

Zzap Guns, however, will deal minor damage 12.0% of the time, major damage 9.0% of the time and destroy the target 6.0% of the time.

I admit that I don't know the AP of either of these weapons, so these figures assume an AP of between 2 and 6 for each weapon.

This means that, on average, one zzap gun is more likely to damage an AV12 vehicle - for any type of damage - than one Loota. Without going into the figures, the same is true for all armour values.

If anyone wants to check my method for this, I used an Excel macro to generate the relevant figures. (attached)

The relevant details can be found in cells C13 for zzap penetration and C12 for zzap glance / penetrate, G13 for loota penetration and G12 for loota glance / penetrate.

However, the zzap gun costs 30pts whereas the loota costs 15. You need to run the numbers for 2 lootas vs 1 zzap gun.

Pretty simple numbers where AV14 vehicles are concerned.

Now compare the Zzap gun to a Battlewagon with a Deffrolla. Same point as before, simply because a unit may be the best at xxx for the army (in this case long range anti armor) doesn't mean there's not a better one for the role.

Guys, although this topic is intaresting the OP is miles behind. He posted a new thread.


http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/225909.page

Put your knowlage to use!

Hey...I just thought of something. Wouldn't full squads of Tankbusters totally decimate Biker Nobs? Most Bike Nob armys don't take any tanks and rokkits will ignore FNP. Plus if they are mounted in a Battlewagon.

15 shots
5 hits
5 wounds (5 different models selected to save)
3 Failed (2 if turboboosting).

You should be able to get at 2 rounds at least.

Perhaps, but that would require major tailoring to accomodate, otherwise, you have a bunch of sub-par elites sitting around doing nothing but making you wish you had brought something else. Besides, Lootas can do the same job only slightly worse at the very worst, and much, much better at the very best. And on average, they still edge out ahead.

Against AV 12, at a range the lootas win but AV 13-14 are best left for the zapps and rokkits [hence the tankbustas thread], but the OP wanted to know what other uses there are for tank bustas, eg termis, lord, high toughness units