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Something interesting to throw into the conversation. I was watching Channel 4 news over here in the UK and they had an interview with an Israeli historian based at Oxford Uni, who'd served in the Israeli army as well, who basically said that he felt Israel had been heavyhanded in it's approach. He pointed out that the Israeli government generally goes in mob-handed and that in fact it was Israel had broken the truce. Apparently the missle strikes had dropped from over 100 a month / week to about 3 a month / week and this was down to a cease fire brokered by Egypt and agreed in July sometime. Israel decided to go over the border after a group of Hamas fighters and this is what sparked the increase. I would be interested to know if his facts are true or close to the truth.

Whilst I'm here I will add a sub post to this as I had come online to put up a post and it is kinda connected to the same subject matter. As well as the interview with this Israeli historian there was also a report on Guantanamo Bay and the closing of it. There appeared to quite alot of support for keeping it open and what had been done there, which I find fascinating. The reason I find it fascinating, and here is the connection to the main story, in the 70's & 80's the UK experienced the joy of the IRA. During this time people, and I do mean the normal genaral public here, in Northern Ireland, mainland UK and where ever the British army was posted had to on their guard for bombs going off and killing them. Now we have a secret service and we have the SAS, both more than able to deal with this threat, but strangely enough not really allowed to. Do you know why? Let me tell you, because countries like the US would scream blue murder if we did. You had the delightful Kennedy's stirring it up as well as that lovely support group called NORAID. M15/M16 and the SAS could of wiped the IRA off the face of the planet, but no this wasn't allowed. Could someone please tell me at what point did it become acceptable in the eyes of the US people for their country and Israel to take such heavy handed approach to terrorists?

And do you know what makes it even more galling? Our black ops just took out the intended target!!! SAS soldiers on the Irish border sat and watched the IRA move back and forward, across open "empty" farm land. If they were lucky and got the go ahead they took them out, with no civilian fallout, but still if the operation came to light the UK got it in the neck.

If an IRA suspect was caught in the US we had a hell of a job getting them back, because apparently we'd tortured them. At least we went through a court, not snatch them from another country and stick them in a place like Guantanamo Bay. There was not a cat in hells chance we could of stuck them in such a place and got away with it.

Just for the record, I do think that terrorists should be dealt with a different type of court and the basics of what Guantanamo Bay was trying to achieve is valid. However I do feel that the US has become very hypocritical in some areas.

Belphegor wrote:Los Angeles Times:
"The Palestinian Ministry of Health reported Monday that the death toll had risen from 884 to 910, according to an update from United Nations officials in Gaza. The dead include 292 children and 75 women, the officials said. The number of injured Palestinians stood at 4,250, of whom 1,497 are children and 626 are women.
Israel has suffered 13 dead: 10 soldiers, four of them by "friendly fire," and three civilians by Hamas rockets."

Hmm.

So they're killing about 100 innocent people for every innocent person from their country killed?

Even if the number of Palestinian innocents were a tenth that it would be a terrible attempt at "justice."

I'm getting tired of our country constantly backing them up.
I'd rather just leave them to solve their own problems with the rest of the world.

Wolfstan wrote:Could someone please tell me at what point did it become acceptable in the eyes of the US people for their country and Israel to take such heavy handed approach to terrorists?

9/11.
Easy one.

Orkeosaurus wrote:9/11.
Easy one.

Exactly.

"If you don't torture, the terrorists WIN!"

Wolfstan wrote:Could someone please tell me at what point did it become acceptable in the eyes of the US people for their country and Israel to take such heavy handed approach to terrorists?

9/11.
Easy one.

Sure, we do.

We're Americans.

To: Orkeosaurus
remember ~4 Israelis fell to friendly fire... so it's even worse


somewhat off topic:
Torture is ineffective to someone who is consigned to their own death.
If you can't receive reliable information from said individual the torture becomes unnecessary.
If you continue. Your using the search for intelligence as an excuse to behave sadistically.
Which is impractical since the act of torture is damaging to both the torturer and the victim.

somewhat more off topic:
It's sad that torture isn't used on the people that it would be effective on.
Those who have a sense of protected entitlement.
Most people wouldn't expect to die as a punishment to embezzlement.
I'd bet the banks would squeal about everyone that our (USA) 'rescue' money went to if we put the screws to them.

Thanks belph for the query as to why this is being closed.

I am shutting this thread down as its an extremely inflammatory topic. Many of the posts have been potentially inflammatory as well, and it seems to be flowing into other areas that are inflammatory. OT does not mean every topic, and this thread has additonally wandered into the topic of torture. While other threads may have been kept open in the past, and other topics of controversy will arise, this particular thread is being closed.