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whatwhat wrote:I think your underestimating the quality of Israeli soldiers. Like, a lot.

two words...operation thunderbolt.

This stuff is from Reporters without Borders, a non-profit dedicated to preserving a free media. The 08 summary report acknowledges Israel has the best record in the region for free media, but notes that they kill a lot of journalists.

2008
"Sixteen journalists were injured when troops fired real or rubber bullets or percussion or teargas grenades during 2007. Palestinian photographer Abbas Momani, of the French news agency Agence France-Presse, received head injuries from a plastic bullet while covering a demonstration against the Israeli “separation wall” at Bilin, on the West Bank, on 25 May. The army reportedly fired on a group of journalists to disperse them. Al-Aqsa TV cameraman Imad Ghanem was seriously wounded by Israeli soldiers on 5 July as he filmed an army operation near the Gaza Strip’s Al-Barij camp. He lost the use of both legs."

2007
"Only 17 media workers were hurt during Israeli bombardment of the Palestinian Territories in 2006 and none killed. Reporters Without Borders went to Israel in December however to publicise the lack of openness in the Israeli army’s enquiries into these incidents. A senior military spokesperson said most of them had been investigated but that evidence gathered was “insufficient to bring charges.”

Several journalists were wounded while covering events in the Palestinian Territories and the fighting in Lebanon. Photographer Hamid al-Khur, of the Turkish news agency Ihlas, was shot three times by Israeli soldiers as he took pictures of clashes between Palestinian militants and Israeli troops in Beit Lahiya, in northern Gaza, on 7 July.

A few days later, about 20 media workers were caught in gunfire when reporting on an Israeli incursion in the Gaza Strip. Cameraman Ibrahim Atla, of the Palestinian public TV station, was hit by shell fragments and suffered chest wounds, even though he was wearing a jacket marked “Media.” His assistant was also wounded along with a Japanese journalist, and a Reuters news agency vehicle was damaged."

2006
"A dozen journalists, nearly all Israeli Arabs, were summoned and interrogated about their work and political views by the Israeli intelligence service, Shabak, which suspected them of having links with the Lebanese Hezbollah movement. Nabil al-Mazzawi, an Al-Jazeera cameraman on the West Bank, was beaten on 4 November by Israeli soldiers and held for several hours after he filmed a demonstration against the wall separating Israel and the Occupied Territories. Majdi al-Arabid, cameraman for the Israeli TV stations Channel 10, was wounded in the stomach and the leg by gunfire as he filmed Israeli troops entering Beit Hanoun, north of Gaza."

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Strike at them themselves, which is incredibly foolish. Such things are for the UN to sort out, not individual countries (remember Iraq?)

Honestly, I think Israel lacks the balls to attack Iran. It's been far too used to just using Bully Boy tactics on the weak and infirm. I think most of their soldiers would befoul themselves if caught in a proper war where the enemy had Tanks and Missiles as well....

They're geared for war against a low tech opponent, but they're certainly a skilled military. Their force projection is too limited to ever invade another nation in the region, and fortunately the same is true for everyone else.

However, that doesn't mean they won't do something stupid that might escalate. Strike against Iranian nuclear facilities, leading to Iranian retaliation, and more Israeli strikes and so on, until both sides stumble into full scale war.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I don't. At all.

See my earlier comment about a Man, non-Arab, wielding a White Flag with JOURNALIST on his UN-Issue Flak Jack, being gunned down in the street whilst unarmed.

They have never been in a proper battle. Taking on a bunch of Terrorist arsholes who are poorly trained and equipped, is different to fighting a proper war against a Military Power....

Not quite. for example

And they did alright in the 6 day war. They've been getting ready for a re-run of that ever since.

And the Israeli army is very well equipped. It's generally regarded as being amongst the top 10 armies in the world.

And MOSSAD don't %^&* about either.

I think if the Israelis felt they could successfully "hurt" an Iranian nuclear program in such a fashion tehy wouldn't hesitate.

Sebster, bigger mistakes have been made by the US army on hundreds of occasions.

In any case the israeli army is commonly considered by military analysts to be one of the best fighting forces in the world. Whether by funding or circumstance, it doesn't matter. Rather than a bunch of weekend warriors as mad doc seems to believe.

I'm just questioning the overall experience of an army with a large section of inducted Youths.

Good on paper is one thing, good in practice is quite another. We know the British and US armies are pretty hard, because they are fighting in Wars and have a long and bloody history of doing so. Israel does not.

But either way the whole region is stuffed.

Israelis know more about war than most US and British citizens ever will. Honestly how ignorant can you be.

This is going to sound kind of terrible. But I've often wondered if the lack of full, outright war between the two sides is what keeps the entire bizarre situation sustainable. Rockets get fired, buses explode, and people keep going to shopping malls. Yes, there's a cycle of vengeance at work, but at no time is the bloodshed enough that both sides become sickened to the point of wanting a real peace.

reds8n, do you remember the conflict between the Orthodoxy and Ultraquist Geomancers in Morrison's Doom Patrol? I've often wondered if there was a commentary there on the Israeli/Palestinean situation, or at least senseless conflicts like it.

Modquisition on:

As this is a highly emotional topic, this thread is being monitored to insure it complies with Dakka guidelines. If it gets out of hand it will be shut down and disciplinary proceedings enforced if necessary.

*Be polite
*refrain from racist or discriminatory comments.

I will refrain from posting personally to insure nuetrality.

Modquisition off.

gorgon wrote:This is going to sound kind of terrible. But I've often wondered if the lack of full, outright war between the two sides is what keeps the entire bizarre situation sustainable. Rockets get fired, buses explode, and people keep going to shopping malls. Yes, there's a cycle of vengeance at work, but at no time is the bloodshed enough that both sides become sickened to the point of wanting a real peace.

Tragically I think there's a degree of truth in this.

I think the whole middle east powder keg is rapidily approaching a situation akin to the M.A.D pacts we had in the tail end of the cold war. Any of the countries that go all out for it would be so damaged by the carnage and death that they would cease to exist as they are now. Insofar as anyone can ever be said to win in a war, I think (hope) the leaders of the countries in and around the region know this and that's why they strive to accept and move on.

Which I'll point out here is something that the USA has actually been encouraging and trying to assist with.

But fanatical religios fundamentalism and realpolitik don't mix al that well.

reds8n, do you remember the conflict between the Orthodoxy and Ultraquist Geomancers in Morrison's Doom Patrol? I've often wondered if there was a commentary there on the Israeli/Palestinean situation, or at least senseless conflicts like it.

, Yeah, I must confess it wasn't the first thing that sprung to mind on this thread. I'd hazard it's about senseless conflicts in general more than the specific scenario here. Although I do think the Potlatch solution is an excellant one.

Although it'd be equally pointless, a War of Nerves would at least be less hazardous to lives and property.

Think of the money the cigarette and chewing gum companies could make though !

Frazzled wrote:Modquisition on:

As this is a highly emotional topic, this thread is being monitored to insure it complies with Dakka guidelines. If it gets out of hand it will be shut down and disciplinary proceedings enforced if necessary.

*Be polite
*refrain from racist or discriminatory comments.

I will refrain from posting personally to insure nuetrality.

Modquisition off.

It's also a good idea to refrain from calling people "ignorant," due to the loaded naure of that particular word.


Eric

Give me an alternative and I'll use it.

Short sighted.
Ill informed.

That sort of thing. Wonderful thing the English language.

I have to say, this whole issue is being swerved by Peoples' impressions from the Media. What we hear about on a daily basis from our News Reporters is not exactly what is happening. For all the bravery and "On The Scene" impression we get from our contemporary News Reporter, what you see is not what you get.

Now, I'm not running any 'Conspiracies' here, but (for British people, at least) with a Government Controlled News Centre controlling much of what comes into our Homes, you can't expect the Truth. At least, not the whole truth. More often that not, in the UK, Israel's Case is presented by eloquent, well spoken, well dressed Army Spokespeople. These people can hold an argument better than half of our Public Faces, and are apparently highly Media-trained. This gives an extraordinarily one sided impression when we see, on the other hand, a Palestinian man, badly shaven, obviously under a lot of stress, speak to us about the Palestinian side, not in English.

I have a colleague whose entire Family is in Israel. From what I hear from a man who has next to no interest in making Israel sound good, (he himself has been extremely critical at times, having had his Father and Uncles all in the Israeli Army) but with close contact to his family in Israel, they're at least giving as good as they're getting.

~sA

(If any part of my Argument doesn't make sense, please tell me. I've literally just fallen off an Erg, so garbled language is generally excused.)

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Short sighted.
Ill informed.

That sort of thing. Wonderful thing the English language.

And you'd prefer I used them instead?

edit: because 'ignorant' is exactly the word I wanted to use.

Ignorance suggest that I am ignoring facts, almost to a revisionist point of views.

Ill informed suggests that one is not aware of certain facts.

Now which would you prefer people used?

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Ignorance suggest that I am ignoring facts, almost to a revisionist point of views.

Ill informed suggests that one is not aware of certain facts.

Now which would you prefer people used?

Oh great, so I could have used both.

Lets play nice people. This thread is not free from Dakka strictyures and they will be enforced in this instance.

Regardless of anybody's personal feelings, the obvious fact is that seventy years ago, the Iraelis were moved by force into the middle of the part of the world that hates them, and they've been squatting there, giving the arab and muslim world the finger ever since. This mess will not end until Irael is destroyed. I have no feelings about this one way or the other, so hold your petty accusations.

Interestingly, the land Israel was meant to sit on was bought from the Palestinians.

After that it gets really murky and is open to debate.

BBC had a really good potted history of the whole thing but I can't find it (was on their Website). Both sides are to blame, but it was pretty bloody stupid of us to put them there.

Ghetto_Fight wrote:Israel's "right to protect it'self" is the universal "right" to protect one's self. Such as if you found a thief in your house and you want to kill him, he has the right to protect himself.

Too bad Gaza and the other Palestinian territories aren't part of Israel.

What Israel is doing is going over to their neighbor's house, shooting the women and children, and then claiming it as their own.

Given that Israel isn't on their own soil, but is instead invading another country, claiming "self defense" doesn't really hold.

- - - - -

Los Angeles Times:
"The Palestinian Ministry of Health reported Monday that the death toll had risen from 884 to 910, according to an update from United Nations officials in Gaza. The dead include 292 children and 75 women, the officials said. The number of injured Palestinians stood at 4,250, of whom 1,497 are children and 626 are women.
Israel has suffered 13 dead: 10 soldiers, four of them by "friendly fire," and three civilians by Hamas rockets."


Two separate things but so closely linked....
People aren't money.
Israelis aren't US dollars, and Palestinians aren't Mexican Pesos.

This is revolting.
and I blame us (the U.S.A.) for setting such an abominable standard of action.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I really do wonder just how long the rest of the Arab states are going to stay non-aggresive toward Israel. Surely at some point, a decision is going to made?

Well, given that the US is completely embroiled in Iraq and Afghanistan, and we've got a clueless limp-dick Dem taking office in a week, I'd say the Arab shelling and invasion is about 6.5 days away.

But, it's not without provocation.

Hamas ARE launching Rockets into Israeli territories, aiming for civilian areas. This is being done on a nearly daily basis.

But Israels response, in my opinion, is vastly overblown.

Hamas is down nearly 400 women and children.

Hell, if it were me as an Arab Minister of Peace, I'd have gone nuclear against Israel.

No, Gaza is down that.

How many were Hamas militants is pretty much impossible to say sadly.

Anyhow, wait until the Inauguration to see what really happens. Once Bush and the Reps are out, we'll see what the Arabs are up to.

Well, I think Obama is doing the right thing closing down 'Camp X Ray' waste of bloody time that it was.

That ought to go some way to showing the US in a new, more favourable light. Bush just loved his mailed fist. Obama it seems is at least willing to present it in a velvet glove first.

IMO, the big mistake was in taking prisoners in the first place.

Should have simply shot them in the field.

But now that we've got them, and they're going to be released the US has no choice but to break the minds of every single one of them.