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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

Vaktathi wrote:Also the newer codex's still have large numbers of problems.

Why don't they just make these their official FAQ's then instead of bothering with the crap they put out?

Even if "tournament" gamers aren't their primary market, most people play what amounts to tournament style games most of the time (use the points value of whatever the local tourney standard is with those rules and the GW FAQ's)

If a software or electronics firm provided such errata for instance, they'd take tons of flak for it and lose sales.

I don't think so. Perhaps 1 or 2 issues per Codex, which is pretty good compared to what we've seen before.

In most ways, something like the INAT FAQ is a step backwards because it doesn't address the Frequent questions GW gets - it attempts to address *ALL* questions, regardless of whether they'll reasonably come up or not. Writing a FAQ assuming two Adepticon TFGs is *NOT* in GW's interest. The INAT FAQ is often unnecessary and redundant based on how GW intends for players to interpret the rules.

I don't know about that, either. Certainly, with GW's emphasis on Apoc and deemphasis on Tournament, this should continue to shift away from what you suggest.

I completely disagree with this. I buy tons of consumer / computer electronics with crappy / redundant manuals, and couldn't care less. When you buy a car, how much attention do you pay to the Owner's Manual? Do you really need a manual to turn on the headlights and wiper? Or start the engine? If you don't get a manual, can you still drive the car? So I conclude that it's the product that matters, not the manual. And GW's product is the minis, not the rules, and definitely NOT the FAQs.
____

Saldiven wrote:Here in North Metro Atlanta,

While there was a decent surge in purchasing and playing of Apocalypse in the months following their release, there has been a significant drop off in more recent months.

If they show Apocalypse the same kind of support that GW normally shows its products, that profit spike will go the way of LOTR.

Buckhead?

Sorry to hear that.

If Apoc continues to follow LotR, I guess we're going to have Apoc for the foreseeable future, with Apocalypse 2 coming out late 5th Edition. I can't see that as a bad thing.

(You're aware that LotR makes money for GW, right?)
____

gorgon wrote:Your post doesn't make any sense, nor does it have any proof behind it.

No, you just don't like the fact that Apoc is displacing Tournament.

gorgon wrote:The global performance of Apoc has no direct correlation on the decisions of GWUS about their GT circuit.

I didn't say there was a direct correlation. I said that GW resources were finite and subject to zero-sum rules such that any resources expended on one cannot be expended on the other because there is ZERO overlap between Apoc and GTs. That is, if GW spends money on Apoc rules or product, none of that feeds their GTs, and vice-versa.

So the smart decision is to allocate resources towards those things that generate revenue (i.e. Apoc) vs those that don't (i.e. GTs).

gorgon wrote:Currency fluctuations have more to do with it than anything. Can you show me where GW's claimed that Apoc has led them back to profitability?

Read Jervis' Standard Bearer. He's all wound up over how players are using Apoc Datasheets to collect models above and beyond what a GT-limited list might require.

gorgon wrote:I call bull$hit if you're telling me big multiplayer games that you have to drag thousands of points to outweigh all the normal sized, 3 hour pickup games.

Given that Apoc can be a 2 vs 2 game of 3000 pts per side, and people typically game for a chunk of time, you can retract that call.

gorgon wrote:I'm sure that customers *could* patch software too. But why should they be expected to do so?

Software isn't a good example, because the software *is* the product, and usually requires special skill / training to patch. GW's product isn't really the rules, it's the models. And we do a lot of conversions to suit ourselves. To the extent that GW's rules are the product, there are usually House Rules and conventions at most play areas. So I'd say, in GW's case, such patching should be expected and taken for granted.
____

Vaktathi wrote:From a cursory glance it reads to some people as though if a shot ignores a models armor they don't get feel no pain, whereas this only actually occurs against AP1/2 weapons.

RAW is clear and I don't see the confusion. AP3 weapons allow a save for Sv2+ models, so they don't negate FNP.

Vaktathi wrote:I love Apoc games, but I still find tournament standard games to be the norm. I play Apoc once every couple months, even though I'd like to get it in more.

You know, you can play "small" 2 on 2 games, of 1500, 1750, 2000, 2500 pts per player...

Vaktathi wrote:if a competitor releases a similar product with better documentation, driver support, and updates, they'll lose out.

Documetnation? no way. Driver support and updates? Perhaps - driver support and updates tie to what the product actually does.

Following the car analogy above, would anyone *really* buy a Chevy vs Honda vs Toyota based on the Owner's Manual?

Vaktathi wrote:I really wish they'd go back to doing proper FAQ's and updates, even if it's just an annual pamphlet or something.

You mean Chapter Approved, again? Please no. That got old, fast.

I think GW is deliberately NOT doing Chapter Approved because they realized that all it did was sell a single $20 book once, instead of scads of model product repeatedly.

   
Made in fi
Calculating Commissar







JohnHwangDD wrote:No, you just don't like the fact that Apoc is displacing Tournament.

You're deflecting the question with an ad hominem.

The supply does not get to make the demands. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

Given that he started with an ad hominem, it's well-justified.

   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
I don't think so. Perhaps 1 or 2 issues per Codex, which is pretty good compared to what we've seen before.
I think I've seen *maybe* one issue per FAQ that people actually asked and far more that routinely pop up on here, warseer, and other places that get ignored. Most of it is simply a waste of space, or re-iterations of what the book already says explicitely.


In most ways, something like the INAT FAQ is a step backwards because it doesn't address the Frequent questions GW gets - it attempts to address *ALL* questions, regardless of whether they'll reasonably come up or not. Writing a FAQ assuming two Adepticon TFGs is *NOT* in GW's interest. The INAT FAQ is often unnecessary and redundant based on how GW intends for players to interpret the rules.
Maybe, but GW could still do an infinitely better job at addressing issues that don't currently get answered.

Currently, GW's FAQ's *DON'T* answer most of the frequently asked questions.


I don't know about that, either. Certainly, with GW's emphasis on Apoc and deemphasis on Tournament, this should continue to shift away from what you suggest.
I honestly haven't seen this occuring, in any of the places I've played (Portland, Salem, Fresno/Clovis, San Diego, etc). I've seen Apoc played yes, but I haven't seen or experienced any decrease in Tournament style play. Tournament style play is exactly what the average pickup game typically is, which comprises the vast majority of games. Also, there's generally more tournament events than Apoc events, at least at most places I've seen. While I'd love to see Apoc on the level you describe, I think Apoc is a lot cooler than normal play, I'm just not seeing it. Neither in what people are usually playing, events, nor the in the way GW FAQ's it's rules.


I completely disagree with this. I buy tons of consumer / computer electronics with crappy / redundant manuals, and couldn't care less. When you buy a car, how much attention do you pay to the Owner's Manual? Do you really need a manual to turn on the headlights and wiper? Or start the engine? If you don't get a manual, can you still drive the car? So I conclude that it's the product that matters, not the manual. And GW's product is the minis, not the rules, and definitely NOT the FAQs.
If you buy a motherboard without a manual and don't have any instruction on how to connect the front panel, wouldn't that piss you off? If another company did so, and provided a nice, if cheap, diagram to do so, and had a comparable product, wouldn't you next time maybe think a bit less of the one without the manual?

RAW is clear and I don't see the confusion. AP3 weapons allow a save for Sv2+ models, so they don't negate FNP.
However by the reading of the rule, many people interpret it as if a model doesn't get *its* armor save (e.g. 4+ armor on nob bikers). I've seen people think that Heavy Bolters ignore nob Bikers FNP, far more than I've seen many of the other FAQ's asked.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/02/01 22:28:41


IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
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[DCM]
.







JohnHwangDD wrote:Given that he started with an ad hominem, it's well-justified.


Wha...?!?

The old "two wrongs make a right" argument?

I expect better from you John!
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

Vaktathi wrote:GW could still do an infinitely better job at addressing issues that don't currently get answered.

Currently, GW's FAQ's *DON'T* answer most of the frequently asked questions.

Not sitting on GW's call center makes it hard to guess what questions GW is receiving relative to what Dakka, etc. are seeing. Recall that Dakka and other websites are anomalous in that they have a far higher proportion of touranment-style players than what GW's actual customer base. Most issues that crop up online probably get buried in normal play.

Vaktathi wrote: Tournament style play is exactly what the average pickup game typically is, which comprises the vast majority of games.

I doubt that very strongly. I would bet that the overwhelming majority of GW's games are in a living room, basement, or garage among a handful of friends, and that pickup shop play is a clear minority.

Vaktathi wrote:While I'd love to see Apoc on the level you describe, I think Apoc is a lot cooler than normal play, I'm just not seeing it.

That's because most GW gaming is intensely private and social, rather than public / competitive stuff that people can actually see.

Vaktathi wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:
I completely disagree with this. I buy tons of consumer / computer electronics with crappy / redundant manuals, and couldn't care less. When you buy a car, how much attention do you pay to the Owner's Manual? Do you really need a manual to turn on the headlights and wiper? Or start the engine? If you don't get a manual, can you still drive the car? So I conclude that it's the product that matters, not the manual. And GW's product is the minis, not the rules, and definitely NOT the FAQs.
If you buy a motherboard without a manual and don't have any instruction on how to connect the front panel, wouldn't that piss you off? If another company did so, and provided a nice, if cheap, diagram to do so, and had a comparable product, wouldn't you next time maybe think a bit less of the one without the manual?

Motherboards and such traditionally have *terrible* manuals. But they're idiot-proof because they generally follow the Intel reference design, and all connectors are one-way unique.

And besides, all of the setup in in the firmware, not DIP switches. DIP switch MOBOs are like 20-30 years ago...

In any case, you're saying that you'd pay Cadillac money for Dodge product just because the manual is better?

Vaktathi wrote: However by the reading of the rule, many people interpret it as if a model doesn't get *its* armor save (e.g. 4+ armor on nob bikers).

And that's why it's easier to bypass the question with Vindicators / Demolisher that cause Instant Death *and* have AP2!

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

Alpharius wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:Given that he started with an ad hominem, it's well-justified.


Wha...?!?

The old "two wrongs make a right" argument?

I expect better from you John!

Yeah, and in general, I probably should respond better.

If he's willing to address the substance of my reply, then that's great. Otherwise, I'll tell him to go pound sand.

   
Made in us
Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces






Southeastern PA, USA

Ultimately, the burden of proof is on you to show us how U.S. events resources is directly affected by design team budgets.

But really, I'm done feeding the troll here and I'm more than content to move on.

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Made in us
Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces






Southeastern PA, USA

Alpharius wrote:The old "two wrongs make a right" argument?

I expect better from you John!


I don't.

My AT Gallery
My World Eaters Showcase
View my Genestealer Cult! Article - Gallery - Blog
Best Appearance - GW Baltimore GT 2008, Colonial GT 2012

DQ:70+S++++G+M++++B++I+Pw40k90#+D++A+++/fWD66R++T(Ot)DM+++

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

So, two zero-content posts from gorgon, and I'm the "troll"?

Yeah, right.

Move on, nothing to see here...

   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Not sitting on GW's call center makes it hard to guess what questions GW is receiving relative to what Dakka, etc. are seeing. Recall that Dakka and other websites are anomalous in that they have a far higher proportion of touranment-style players than what GW's actual customer base. Most issues that crop up online probably get buried in normal play.
The same questions I see on Warseer and on here are typically similar to the ones I see in my FLGS, most of the questions in the FAQ's I don't recall ever hearing of.


I doubt that very strongly. I would bet that the overwhelming majority of GW's games are in a living room, basement, or garage among a handful of friends, and that pickup shop play is a clear minority.
Maybe, but even in such instances (I play many games in friends basements and kitchen tables) it's likely to use 1500-2000pt armies of basic codex design using the basic 3 mission/3 deployment types, e.g. tournament play.


That's because most GW gaming is intensely private and social, rather than public / competitive stuff that people can actually see.
Possibly, but I still know far more people that play at stores than just at home, and I like to think I'm pretty well connected with the local gaming network. Stores have terrain, free tables, no parent/spouse/siblings/etc and, a huge incentive to play there.

JohnHwangDD wrote:


In any case, you're saying that you'd pay Cadillac money for Dodge product just because the manual is better?
Not quite (I wouldn't ever buy either brand), I'm saying if I had the choice between a Toyota and a Honda, I'd choose the one with the best support unless one had a significantly better product on it's own that it overshadowed such support.


And that's why it's easier to bypass the question with Vindicators / Demolisher that cause Instant Death *and* have AP2!
Yes, but you see where you could read the interpretation I gave from the way the rule reads right?

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

Vaktathi wrote:The same questions I see on Warseer and on here are typically similar to the ones I see in my FLGS, most of the questions in the FAQ's I don't recall ever hearing of.

That doesn't surprise me in the least, as Dakka / Warseer / FLGS all have similar issues with strangers playing strangers.

Vaktathi wrote:Maybe, but even in such instances (I play many games in friends basements and kitchen tables) it's likely to use 1500-2000pt armies of basic codex design using the basic 3 mission/3 deployment types, e.g. tournament play.

I probably haven't played a store game in over 5 years. I play nearly exclusively in friends places, and they overwhelmingly prefer to play Apocalypse over tournament-style gaming. This is over a dozen people who rarely set foot in a game store, and are primarily supported by the WarStore for purchases.

Vaktathi wrote: Possibly, but I still know far more people that play at stores than just at home, and I like to think I'm pretty well connected with the local gaming network. Stores have terrain, free tables, no parent/spouse/siblings/etc and, a huge incentive to play there.
If they don't know you, you probably won't know them. Homes have beer onsite and home-cooked eats, along with "babysitting" if needed. Different incentives for different folks.

Vaktathi wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:In any case, you're saying that you'd pay Cadillac money for Dodge product just because the manual is better?
Not quite (I wouldn't ever buy either brand), I'm saying if I had the choice between a Toyota and a Honda, I'd choose the one with the best support unless one had a significantly better product on it's own that it overshadowed such support.

Really? I'd be OK in a CTS. Or an Escalade.

I wouldn't get Toyota or Honda - I'd get a Subaru because the product is superior value for the money. And a *lot* more fun to drive. Support-wise, I hope never to see the dealer after the sale.

Vaktathi wrote: but you see where you could read the interpretation I gave from the way the rule reads right?
Yes.

   
Made in us
Sslimey Sslyth




JohnHwangDD wrote:
Saldiven wrote:Here in North Metro Atlanta,

While there was a decent surge in purchasing and playing of Apocalypse in the months following their release, there has been a significant drop off in more recent months.

If they show Apocalypse the same kind of support that GW normally shows its products, that profit spike will go the way of LOTR.

Buckhead?

Sorry to hear that.

If Apoc continues to follow LotR, I guess we're going to have Apoc for the foreseeable future, with Apocalypse 2 coming out late 5th Edition. I can't see that as a bad thing.

(You're aware that LotR makes money for GW, right?)
____


LoTR has made money, but it has been an ever decreasing amount since the movies that drove the game have gotten farther and farther away. They should see another spike with the release of The Hobbit, but then keep dwindling. Even GW's profit reports from years past like to refer to the "LoTR bubble," whatever that was.

And, honestly, I have seen exactly one game of LoTR being played at any of the gaming stores I have visited since it came out, and that was years ago. I can't remember if it was before or after I moved to Atlanta, but I moved here in the summer of 2004. Personally, I have never seen anything attractive about LoTR. If I wanted to play a game set in Middle Earth, I'd rather play MERP.
   
Made in us
Sslimey Sslyth




JohnHwangDD wrote:
Vaktathi wrote: Tournament style play is exactly what the average pickup game typically is, which comprises the vast majority of games.

I doubt that very strongly. I would bet that the overwhelming majority of GW's games are in a living room, basement, or garage among a handful of friends, and that pickup shop play is a clear minority.


Wow, the gaming demographic here must be totally different from yours, John.

The ONLY people I know that have gaming tables with terrain, etc. at their homes (whether garage, basement or living room) are the hardest core tournament players I've ever met. The few times I've gone to play with them at their homes, the atmosphere has been a lot more like a tournament that any pickup games I get at the store.

The two big stores in my area are much more social in organization, with at least a half of the regular players being under the age of 20; the games tend to be more "fun," unless the two people playing are a little more on the competitive side. It's why I prefer to play at the stores; everyone is usually much more laid back.
   
Made in us
Foul Dwimmerlaik






Minneapolis, MN

Saldiven wrote:And, honestly, I have seen exactly one game of LoTR being played at any of the gaming stores I have visited since it came out, and that was years ago. I can't remember if it was before or after I moved to Atlanta, but I moved here in the summer of 2004. Personally, I have never seen anything attractive about LoTR. If I wanted to play a game set in Middle Earth, I'd rather play MERP.

Off topic but this thread has already veered past its prime anyways, the best thing that came from the LotR game was the game engine that was ported over to the warhammer historical branch that also utilized the mordheim/necromunda skirmish style.

Legends of the old west and legends of the high seas are really damned sweet.

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

Saldiven wrote:LoTR has made money, but it has been an ever decreasing amount since the movies that drove the game have gotten farther and farther away. They should see another spike with the release of The Hobbit, but then keep dwindling. Even GW's profit reports from years past like to refer to the "LoTR bubble," whatever that was.

And, honestly, I have seen exactly one game of LoTR being played at any of the gaming stores I have visited since it came out, and that was years ago.

And yet GW is hard at work converting LotR into a mass battle game... LotR is doing well, or GW wouldn't continue to throw this much development resource at it. GW's dumb, but they're not stupid. If they were just trickling down and waiting for the Hobbit, they could save a lot of development money.

How many games of D&D have you seen campaign at those FLGSs? And how many copies of D&D do you think are out in your area? Just because you prefer to game in the store, that doesn't mean LotR players choose to do so. Especially as LotR is designed for smaller boards that are more conducive to living room gaming.

Also, the disdain, contempt and outright hostility that the 40k / WFB crowd throws at LotR does a hell of a job at keeping them out of the store.

Saldiven wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:I doubt that very strongly. I would bet that the overwhelming majority of GW's games are in a living room, basement, or garage among a handful of friends, and that pickup shop play is a clear minority.


Wow, the gaming demographic here must be totally different from yours, John.

The ONLY people I know that have gaming tables with terrain, etc. at their homes (whether garage, basement or living room) are the hardest core tournament players I've ever met. The few times I've gone to play with them at their homes, the atmosphere has been a lot more like a tournament that any pickup games I get at the store.

The two big stores in my area are much more social in organization, with at least a half of the regular players being under the age of 20; the games tend to be more "fun," unless the two people playing are a little more on the competitive side. It's why I prefer to play at the stores; everyone is usually much more laid back.

My gaming demographic is professionals in their 30s. We have considerable resources and aren't afraid to spend them when we want to have fun. However, we feel kind of silly playing in shops with a bunch of kids who're still wet behind the ears (i.e. <30). So we prefer to play at home.

Anyhow, interesting switch in the demographic, thanks.



   
 
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