Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

If not Wednesday that Thurs or Fri for sure

Great reports Shep! I am glad to see that my idea for a mechguard list is moving in the right direction, even though I wanted more boom-pie than your scary lists. Thanks for posting!

Shep wrote:If obliterators, thunder hammers, plaguemarines and bloodcrushers disappear, then so will my executioners

If land raiders disappear, then so will some of my 17 meltaguns

If non-fearless, non-mechanized units disappear, then so will my PBS

If I took this list over and over, I'd start facing more predators, drop and pop style meltas, overloading outflanks, and/or longer range heavy armor spam.

And frankly, this is the point I'm most interested in - if one singular IG build is so darn useful at taking on some of the top tier lists, 1) will we see a resultant shift in the composition of these armies, or are there enough non-IG armies out there to make keeping these lists as they are worthwhile; and 2) if we do see a shift, what will it look like?

It definitely looks like a top list, and really will mess with any army that's not mechanized (or if non-mech then fearless and in large numbers, with decent long-range). Executioners just aren't that great against mech lists, but if they get close you have enough melta. Seems like the hardest list for you to beat would be a guard/tau/marine gunline, with a lot of long-range firepower and mechanized, as really only your hydras and executioners have range to do serious damage.

Death By Monkeys wrote:And frankly, this is the point I'm most interested in - if one singular IG build is so darn useful at taking on some of the top tier lists, 1) will we see a resultant shift in the composition of these armies, or are there enough non-IG armies out there to make keeping these lists as they are worthwhile; and 2) if we do see a shift, what will it look like?

They don't really have to reinvent the wheel to get right back in it.

Demons- railtongues (they are already taking the grinders) and dropping MCs for tzeentch heralds on chariots, and including some horrors as replacements for some or all of the plaguebearers.
Space marines- Khornatedemon's list here, Stelek's "best of" space marines, hell I even made a ravenwing based dark angels army that would look like a top tier list when facing guard.
Lash- manimal's inclusion of chosen with max meltas in rhinos was a little pre-emptive, old lash lists didn't have stuff like that.. but they were gang-busters in our match. Don't bring terminators, maybe consider predators
Orks- KevinNash and I are trying to find the answer, we've been through some playtesting and haven't struck gold yet. Going to try mechanized orks soon, maybe this weekend.

So all the big guys can do a little shifting without losing their identity. Unfortunately, space marine thunder hammer lists seem a bit disadvantaged (I should have seen this mechanized trend coming) and horde orks amy never return in the same fashion they were before. Certainly strong in the mid tables of a tourney, neither of them really excel when facing down transports overloaded with special weapon toting riders. Not to mention specifics such as lash and weaken resolve really hurting them.

tzeentchling wrote:It definitely looks like a top list, and really will mess with any army that's not mechanized (or if non-mech then fearless and in large numbers, with decent long-range). Executioners just aren't that great against mech lists, but if they get close you have enough melta. Seems like the hardest list for you to beat would be a guard/tau/marine gunline, with a lot of long-range firepower and mechanized, as really only your hydras and executioners have range to do serious damage.

Foot based "elite" firepower units are really countered well by executioners. A lot of armies have a hard time getting lascannons into their lists without putting them in the hands of infantry. tri-las predators are a little spendy, but are a nightmare opponent. Max broadsides would be a hard counter if it wasn't so easy to run them right off the table. Tau can only field one broadside unit, as they have to run an ethereal to keep them in the game. Disruption pods fail versus meltas, and hammerhead based anti-tank isn't enough to stop the advance i think. A guard gunline army with 15 lascannons and 15 autocannons would probably make a mockery of my list, although my multi-lasers and my plasma blasts can scoop up some HWS before I'm unceremoniously tabled. And a predator/dreadnought/speeder space marine army has the stuff it needs to pick me off.

I think I've already made a switch in response to the shifting my group is doing, orks are going to be trying lootas in battlewagons, people are spamming predators, or just parking godhammer land raiders in the back row and plunking chimeras. So out goes the hydra battery, and in goes a pask powered vanquisher. I lose anti-infantry, I lose fantastic skimmer kill, but I gain seriously respectable long range heavy armor kill. And I cover up a bit of a vulnerability I have.

I love how 40k is a living game this way... I bring something to hurt what i know you have, you adapt to counter that, i adapt to cover my weaknesses, you can now use some things that you weren't able to use before. This is what makes the game so fun for me.

But what happens if you never know what your opponent will bring?

I think that has something to do with my win percentage. Usually by the time someone has "figured out" an army of mine I've already moved on to something else just because I like the variety.

It's interesting that you are pondering the vanquisher, because I'm becoming very tempted to drop the executioner in my list to add it in. That or I may try out the exterminator with pask.

Warmaster wrote:But what happens if you never know what your opponent will bring?

That's what tourney play is all about...

Game one is a total crapshoot, if you are a serious tourney player, you have an advantage against the cross section of players, but you can bump into another serious tourney player, or into a player who is taking a lot of units that are difficult for your list to handle.

Game two you are playing against a serious list. Or if you lost game one, you are playing against another random list, but are much more likely to win big.

game 3-5. Serious lists.

Successful players have a high propensity for playing with certain list types, which you can track on the internet. There are great players with weird lists on occasion, and you can't always predict exactly what you'll face. If you could the game would boil down to one or two armies fighting each other at a tourney.

I don't remember your demon list for Vegas, but I know it was non standard. You are one of the guys bringing "rogue" army lists to tourneys, one of the guys that really keeps it interesting.

But I'm very analytical in my playstyle. If i can watch a trend and prepare to deal with that trend, and speculate even somewhat correctly on what I'll be facing in my last 3 or 4 games at a tourney, that gives me an advantage.

This IG list is strong enough to get through a guy who isn't playing one of the lists i've prepared against, if he isn't a strong player. So, I can probably win my first game.... probably, not guaranteed. Then as the tourney continues, my likelihood of facing lash, orks and demons increases. As does the caliber of my opponent. Its when the generalship is really strong at the end of the tourney that you need the most help winning, and so keying your list to beat the "big guy" is a smarter way to play the averages.

Of course, you could end up in mirror matches all weekend. Or could keep pulling rogues all weekend. Or you could guess the metagame wrong, or you could just lose 2 or 3 games, at which point you focus on having more fun

Shep wrote:

Orks- KevinNash and I are trying to find the answer, we've been through some playtesting and haven't struck gold yet. Going to try mechanized orks soon, maybe this weekend.

the 4 battlewagon ghazzy list seems like a strong contender to me.

Shep wrote:They don't really have to reinvent the wheel to get right back in it.

Demons- railtongues (they are already taking the grinders) and dropping MCs for tzeentch heralds on chariots, and including some horrors as replacements for some or all of the plaguebearers.
Space marines- Khornatedemon's list here, Stelek's "best of" space marines, hell I even made a ravenwing based dark angels army that would look like a top tier list when facing guard.
Lash- manimal's inclusion of chosen with max meltas in rhinos was a little pre-emptive, old lash lists didn't have stuff like that.. but they were gang-busters in our match. Don't bring terminators, maybe consider predators
Orks- KevinNash and I are trying to find the answer, we've been through some playtesting and haven't struck gold yet. Going to try mechanized orks soon, maybe this weekend.

So all the big guys can do a little shifting without losing their identity. Unfortunately, space marine thunder hammer lists seem a bit disadvantaged (I should have seen this mechanized trend coming) and horde orks amy never return in the same fashion they were before. Certainly strong in the mid tables of a tourney, neither of them really excel when facing down transports overloaded with special weapon toting riders. Not to mention specifics such as lash and weaken resolve really hurting them.

See, that's really what I'm hoping for. And I'm hoping that by doing these tweaks that it will make them all a bit more competitive with each other rather than just being "rock-paper-scissors".

Shep wrote:

Warmaster wrote:But what happens if you never know what your opponent will bring?

That's what tourney play is all about...

I was talking more about your games each week amongst your group but it does also apply equally to tournaments.

Shep wrote:
Successful players have a high propensity for playing with certain list types, which you can track on the internet. There are great players with weird lists on occasion, and you can't always predict exactly what you'll face. If you could the game would boil down to one or two armies fighting each other at a tourney.

I don't remember your demon list for Vegas, but I know it was non standard. You are one of the guys bringing "rogue" army lists to tourneys, one of the guys that really keeps it interesting.

And I guess that might be my personal problem . The lists I take to tournaments are never something you see on the internet. And I've found that even when I do balance my list for play against certain types of armies I never end up facing them at tournaments. I built my Baltimore list to laugh at lash lists and horde orks and didn't play a single one, the closest I got was an evil suns army, ah well.

Shep wrote:
This IG list is strong enough to get through a guy who isn't playing one of the lists i've prepared against, if he isn't a strong player. So, I can probably win my first game.... probably, not guaranteed. Then as the tourney continues, my likelihood of facing lash, orks and demons increases. As does the caliber of my opponent. Its when the generalship is really strong at the end of the tourney that you need the most help winning, and so keying your list to beat the "big guy" is a smarter way to play the averages.

Of course, you could end up in mirror matches all weekend. Or could keep pulling rogues all weekend. Or you could guess the metagame wrong, or you could just lose 2 or 3 games, at which point you focus on having more fun

The IG list is strong, I'm just not sure if it's because of the mech factor or because of the codex. I also wonder if you will still see the horde players stick it out. The problem is that it's usually hard to make a good anti-tank and anti-horde list, some armies do it better than others. If everyone is gearing to take out the mechanized horde then the foot horde might be able to make it through.

With the inclusion of battle psykers it helps a lot against horde, that and hull heavy flamers on chimera's, and their special weapon squads (vets and ccs) IG can build an effecive anti-horde and anti-mech list. Not too many of the books out there allow you to do this. Mech sisters can do both okay, but they have to get really close. This may see a resurgeance in properly built marine lists rising to the top because they can do the same thing. Orks have a rough go if you make loota's combat ineffective, I wonder if we will start to see tank busta's in looted wagons now. I think daemons are in a bit of trouble, as well as nids. Tau I think will have to go all mech with suicide crisis squads to even compete but being able to neuter path finder squads with battle psykers really hurts them.

Warmaster wrote:
I was talking more about your games each week amongst your group but it does also apply equally to tournaments.

Typically that is how it is in our group. The only time we know for sure what our opponents are bringing is when we specifically ask someone to bring something (typically when testing out a tourney list). The rest of the time it will be more like, "hey, wanna play a game on Saturday? 1750pts (or whatever)?" We all have multiple armies and are all adhd enough to bust out a surprise list from time to time. Sometimes we'll also say things like, I have a new idea for a space marine army will you bring a 6 or 7 list (we have a hardness scale) so I can check it out?

Khornatedemon wrote:Oh and shep and somnicide, lemme know if you get to test the vulkan list against the guard.

Had to pare the list down to 1750, we played yesterday. It was a fun quick game... batrep incoming, I'll edit reply with link once its up. Som and I both took a lot away from the game. I think others will too. (hows that for a hook?)


batrep found here

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/239379.page#706492

Shep wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:Oh and shep and somnicide, lemme know if you get to test the vulkan list against the guard.

Had to pare the list down to 1750, we played yesterday. It was a fun quick game... batrep incoming, I'll edit reply with link once its up. Som and I both took a lot away from the game. I think others will too. (hows that for a hook?)

hmm the list should have been 1750 as thats what we play here. Cant wait to see the report though.

hmm, I might have done something wrong with it - I was going off the last list you posted which was:

vulkan

2 dreads w/ MM

2 tac squads with las/flamer in rhino's

1 tac with mm/flamer/fist

2x 2 speeders with MM/HF

2 preds

standard LR with MM

I think I see where the other points got lost - my original write up of your list had a rhino for the third squad and sponsons for the predators. The final list was pretty close to what you were thinking.

Vulkan
2x10 Tac Squads (LC, Flamer, Rhino)
10 Tac Squad (MM, Melta, Power Fist)
2 Predators with LC Sponsons
LR with MM
2 Dreads with MM
2 Speeders with Heavy Flamer and MM
1 Speeder with Heavy Flamer and MM