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Warmaster wrote:

Kevin Nash wrote: This is a real problem for horde orks. Nob bikers are now unplayable in a tournament setting in any capacity. It's simply too risky having to test and watching 700 points worth of your army either running off the table or forced in a bubble where they they can't get into close combat.

Short of a unit of 30 boys I don't think orks can put anything on foot anymore.

I have a feeling you are going to see more battlewagon lists. They were starting to become the rage before the nob bikers became popular. I also think you will see more buggies w/ rokkit's for anti-tank work. Evil Sunz might be all the rage here pretty soon.

Actually I think that would be a very cool looking battlefield tons of buggies and truks and wagons, racing across the field towards a line of imperial armor, good times, good times.

Yeah the full mech list is something I have built but not painted. I guess I have some work to do. Is it viable? Well I think it's good and at this point it's better than horde orks.

Good report, IG are going to be tough to stop. Looks like its going to take really strong lists to beat them.

Somnicide wrote:Khornatedaemon - if you want to write up a list I would be happy to play it against shep and give a full batrep for you - obviously, I won't play exactly like you, but I am a decent enough general. I have been looking for a nice marine solution to that IG list.

I think you should take a version of my mono-tzeentch list against Shep and get some revenge .

Calgar is the obvious counter for marines. But that would involve marines giving up all of their other cool choices (Vulkan).

Personally, I think this is just more incentive for lists to be mounted. Not only does being mounted protect you from Choir, it protects you from Lash as well. In addition, it helps you run from DS daemons.

Warmaster wrote:

Somnicide wrote:Khornatedaemon - if you want to write up a list I would be happy to play it against shep and give a full batrep for you - obviously, I won't play exactly like you, but I am a decent enough general. I have been looking for a nice marine solution to that IG list.

I think you should take a version of my mono-tzeentch list against Shep and get some revenge .

Heh, yeah we were already talking about it - tzeentch heralds on chariots and msu horrors :-) I love that the IG is forcing me (and hopefully others) to crack open those codices and take another look.

AbsoluteBlue wrote:I have been digging through the Tyranid codex for a few days now, trying to see what sort of army I could put together to contend and its been real difficult.

1) With the shift of Chimeras not being open-topped anymore when firing out of them, it further reduced the effectiveness of the Venom Cannon.

2) Genestealers are not fearless, so stealer shock becomes difficult and is greatly dependent on where IG deploy. Deny them the assault on the turn they arrive and they get removed from the table.

3) As normal, gaunts are resistant to the weaken resolve, but now you still got a pie plate right .

4) Killing Chimeras with Barbed Stranglers doesn't sound fun, and point for point its an uphill battle.

5) Screamer Killers / Ninja Fexes almost sound viable if they keep within Synapse, get lucky (eating meltas = death), and have good run rolls. Sounds like a lot of luck.. and only luck.

6) As with non-stealer shock lists, kill the synapse, win the game, still applies...

7) Getting Zoanthropes in range for a Warp Blast sounds like a suicide mission, and ok you kill 1 or 2 of how many tanks?

So I am seeing a pattern with Mechanized Guard = death to the foot sloggers, I am slowly making a Tyranid list (along with the N other armies I am building), so I would like to see how this plays out, but it looks bleak...

.. I am a chaos player, not a tyranid, so this is a VERY naive assessment.

Do NOT underestimate Venom Cannons against Guard for two reasons:

1) Stunned/Shaken results means embarked units inside have to get out to shoot in the next turn.
2) With squadrons, Immobilized results = vehicle destroyed.


I would go with two walking Tyrants with max Guard. These units provide a VERY tough nut of Synapse. Tyrants have Venom Cannons. In front of those two units are a couple smallish units of without number spinegaunts providing cover saves to the Tyrant/Guard units. Behind the Tyrant/Guard units are big units of tooled up Hormagaunts (and maybe some stealers). And of course some Gunfexes marching along as well.

All the venom Cannons should keep the worst of the firing off your bowling ball of doom formation as you march up the battlefield. Weaken Resolve is useless as long as Fearless is in effect and your giant Hormagaunt squads are still getting cover saves for hiding behind your Tyrant/Guard. When you're close enough the Hormaguants are released and jump on up any tank in the IG army with a rear armor of 10 that moved 6" or less (and if they moved more than that they aren't firing at you). They have enough attacks to do some serious damage even though they're only causing glancing hits (and again, with any squadrons an immobilization equals destroyed).

The next turn hopefully some Tyrants, Stealers and Carnifexes also make it into the fray and tear up what the Hormagaunts couldn't handle.


Finally take zome Zoeys to hang in the backfield and meet up with the resurrected spinegaunts to capture objectives for the win.


At least that's how I'd try to do it!

I agree with Yakface's analysis. However I would go one step further and not just put in tough synapse, but generally tougher units. The way the game is shifting less units but harder to kill seems to be the way to go. I personally have found VC's to have great stunning power against IG tank heavy builds, and with their increased variability you can be sure they have a tank for the job needed. Keep the ones you want stunned, and push forward to objectives...or in KP's the tougher units really shine since they are seriously hard to take down. Just my humble opinion...

On another note...great reports. I just hope my IG nemesis isn't taking notes.

Great batreps Shep... Very insightful!

G

That list looks horrific. I'm glad I started this hobby with all its poorly balanced codexes and insane creep...

I also found it HILARIOUS when guard players argued that they weren't going to be broken because of:

1)loss of doctrines
2)ogryns sucking
3)stormtroopers sucking
4)sergeants not being able to carry lasguns (ok this one makes just me lol so it gets let off the hook)

As soon as I saw the codex I knew they would be broken. The tournaments will prove it. They are far too well optimised for 5th if you compare them to the other ''5th ed armies'' ie they take maximal advantage of the cover, scatter and armour table rules. On top of that they get a couple of insanely undercosted units (eg vendettas) and ofc the game breaking psycher choir.

YES!

Guard are the most broken, tank heavy army in the game! Almost like guard are supposed to be THE treadhead army in 40k or something.......

To balance it they should:

Make tanks cost as much if not more then land raiders with less BS and AV...

Have Psykers, but balance it so that abilities gets ignored by units with Stubborn...

Make all the arty open topped and AV 12....

Make Heavy Weapons a W2 model instead of two seperate models....

Make most characters vastly overcost.......

Huge min range for most Arty.........

A poorly written/layout codex.......

Plasma weapons that are overcost......

Redundent codex choices...........

An awsome ICBM that rolls for when it can shoot. Huzzah!

Less wargear then in any other codex before..........

Infantry AV that is negated by every MEQ army weapon. Thank god MEQ's are hardly played right?

I could go on, but you all get the idea!!!


Also no gak that guard will take advantage of cover in 5th. You would too if you had a 5+ save! Also Psykers are far from fething game breaking. If thats the case then I feel that you need to learn to play better. Anyone with brains is going to shoot them off the table a.s.a.p. Plus most armies have some form of Psychic Defence. I suggest you start useing it.

Im done.

A few quick thoughts….

I think that the new IG is brutal against Orks and other “soft” armies, but they do not do as well against MEQs (IMO).

I wonder how the chaos list would have done if he had sat back and tried to out shoot you?

I think that the weakness of your army is a MEQ shooty army that has some lascannons, and tries to sit back.

It doesn't require every single unit in a codex to be broken for the army to become imbalanced. No good player will field the reduntant units in a codex.

It's how good the good units are that counts.

Tbh all of your arguments sound like the 4 I listed i.e the codex isn't your wet dream so it's not broken. Look at the OP's list. It is devastating. No plasmaguns, no heavy weapons, none of the gimmicky stuff marketed for the 12 year olds. Just good old fashion powerbuilding, and guard will do this better than anyone else. When it comes to evaluating a codex's strength noone cares that you can't use that basilisk you've had collecting dust in your case all these years. GW certainly doesn't care- they understandably want you to buy new models.

In 5thed abundance of cover means that high volume of crappy fire at low cost is better than a low volume of high quality fire at high cost. Shoota boyz are proof of that, and they're only BS2. BS3 on vehicles means nothing if you're firing the flamer template, blast scattering, have a high volume of fire or twinlinking all your weapons. A powerbuild will maximize on vehicles that can do as such because they eliminate the factors that were meant to balance the vehicle or make their low costs justifiable. Good thing guard aren't known for their pie plate spam then.

The Russes are expensive yes but are actually undercosted for what they do. Landraiders are offensively inferior to Russes, the cost of a landraider is only comparable as you pay a premium for transport capability. If you can't maximize on a capability you are paying for then it will limit the number you take. Russes don't suffer from this, you can take as many as you want and you will get what you pay for (and then some- as imo then are undercosted).

Fragile infantry and target priority on psychers are completely redundant thanks to chimeras- which is imo the best transport in the game point for point. If I could take them instead of rhinos for marines I would. If eldar didn't revolve around a low troop count they would drop those wave serpents in a heartbeat. Yes guard are supposed to have the best vehicles in the game, but it's no excuse to undercost them and it makes the offensive capabilities of a vetsquad inexcusable. The points system is there to balance the game. I imagine they spend a lot of time writing up fun and imaginitive codexes at GW...only to have a monkey come along at the end and slap on some arbitrary points value on each unit.

Psycher squads not gamebreaking....lol. The leadership mechanism for assaults is fair because it takes into account things like initiative and difference in wounds. i.e you'll have a fighting chance. Applying it to shooting is beyond powerful and multimodel unit means getting line of sight while staying in cover is that much easier. A libarian hood doesn't have the same range, and including an expensive librarian just to shut down the choir is foolish anyway- you have to remember the choir is also a bit of an offensive powerhouse thanks to it's large blast attack. The librarian will only be included in a select few lists if you want to get the full use out of it against armies other than guard. Teams like Tau have no psychic defence at all. Eldar will do the best thanks to runes. Yes you can focus on the choir and it's transport to take them out- the same can be said for anything in the game. The point is that the effort involved is completely disportionate to the unit's cost- and if you don't try they will wreck you in the blink of an eye.

In a tournament setting and assuming both players are of the same skill I think only Eldar have a good chance against them. Everyone else will have a horrible uphill battle against guard. Sure you could engineer a list specifically to combat them, but you would get rolled by everyone else. I don't really mind it personally, guard have sucked for a long time, I'm just asking that noone tries to deny it.

@blackmoor: I imagine it would go along the lines of: guard meltas pop rhinos/LRs, marine meltas pop chimeras, executioners butcher marines/terms, marine support fire implodes in on itself due to complete suckage.

Aries_37 wrote:
@blackmoor: I imagine it would go along the lines of: guard meltas pop rhinos/LRs, marine meltas pop chimeras, executioners butcher marines/terms, marine support fire implodes in on itself due to complete suckage.

I think your a little off here. It would come down to a lot of variables including, but not limited to, deployment, who gets the first turn, who can maneouver melta's into range earlier. I know my mech marines run lots of multi melta's which out range guard meltaguns. I can sit at 24" with them and still pop chimera's. And once the chimera is popped the squishy guardsmen inside are easy meat for pred's. But its all in theory. I've played games where my opponent got 3 drop trooping melta vet squads in on the second turn and they all failed to hit or do any damage and were promptly boltered to death. In practice things arent always cut and dry.

I will agree with you on vendetta's though. Tell me again why a pred annihilator is 165 points and a vendetta gets to be 130?

Oh and shep and somnicide, lemme know if you get to test the vulkan list against the guard.

Aries_37 wrote:
Tbh all of your arguments sound like the 4 I listed i.e the codex isn't your wet dream so it's not broken. Look at the OP's list. It is devastating. No plasmaguns, no heavy weapons, none of the gimmicky stuff marketed for the 12 year olds. Just good old fashion powerbuilding, and guard will do this better than anyone else. When it comes to evaluating a codex's strength noone cares that you can't use that basilisk you've had collecting dust in your case all these years. GW certainly doesn't care- they understandably want you to buy new models.

I think it is way to early to say if the IG codex is way overpowered, or underpowered, or just right. There is a lot of gnashing of teeth whenever a new codex is first released, and I want to see how the builds take shape, and how they really do in a competitive setting with good players before we know into which category the codex falls. Normally you can't make a judgment on a codex until at least about 3 months go by. There are a lot of examples where people guessed wrong about new codexes like when Drop Pods dominated for the first few months after the 4th edition marine codex came out and everyone where saying that they are overpowered and unstoppable, or everyone thought how weak the demon codex was before the massed bloodcrushers were used.

@blackmoor: I imagine it would go along the lines of: guard meltas pop rhinos/LRs, marine meltas pop chimeras, executioners butcher marines/terms, marine support fire implodes in on itself due to complete suckage.

I am old school, and I believe in the lascannon. I don't care much for the multimeltas that the kids are all talking about. If the game were to go down like you say, the guard army would have to take about 2-3 turns to get to me, and if I pop those Chimeras then he would be in a world of hurt trying to kill my vehicles.

I might be able to make it to LA in a couple of weeks for the holiday and I might be able to test out my theories out in person.

Blackmoor wrote:
I am old school, and I believe in the lascannon. I don't care much for the multimeltas that the kids are all talking about. If the game were to go down like you say, the guard army would have to take about 2-3 turns to get to me, and if I pop those Chimeras then he would be in a world of hurt trying to kill my vehicles.

I might be able to make it to LA in a couple of weeks for the holiday and I might be able to test out my theories out in person.

I'm having similar feelings on the lascannons. Currently I use all multi melta's in my tac squads but if i find the short range against the new guard becoming an issue i might try out a few lascannons instead. Kinda brings me back to third edition where I always had 2-3 las/plas squads to take out transports for my BA. In fact I dont think I've used lascannons since 3rd.

yakface wrote:
Do NOT underestimate Venom Cannons against Guard for two reasons:

1) Stunned/Shaken results means embarked units inside have to get out to shoot in the next turn.
2) With squadrons, Immobilized results = vehicle destroyed.


I would go with two walking Tyrants with max Guard. These units provide a VERY tough nut of Synapse. Tyrants have Venom Cannons. In front of those two units are a couple smallish units of without number spinegaunts providing cover saves to the Tyrant/Guard units. Behind the Tyrant/Guard units are big units of tooled up Hormagaunts (and maybe some stealers). And of course some Gunfexes marching along as well.

All the venom Cannons should keep the worst of the firing off your bowling ball of doom formation as you march up the battlefield. Weaken Resolve is useless as long as Fearless is in effect and your giant Hormagaunt squads are still getting cover saves for hiding behind your Tyrant/Guard. When you're close enough the Hormaguants are released and jump on up any tank in the IG army with a rear armor of 10 that moved 6" or less (and if they moved more than that they aren't firing at you). They have enough attacks to do some serious damage even though they're only causing glancing hits (and again, with any squadrons an immobilization equals destroyed).

The next turn hopefully some Tyrants, Stealers and Carnifexes also make it into the fray and tear up what the Hormagaunts couldn't handle.


Finally take zome Zoeys to hang in the backfield and meet up with the resurrected spinegaunts to capture objectives for the win.


At least that's how I'd try to do it!

Hmm.. so with your suggestion, I might finally find a reason to build the countless Hormagaunts I have (as a result of buying shooty-gaunts). I don't have the time to build this yet, since I am missing the Walking Tyrants with full Guard, but I think this gives me some inspiration to build a couple with full guard.

On a different note, I did get a chance to play my own Renegade IG list at 1500 points, only 1 PBS, and it destroyed foot slogging orks... tabled on turn 5 :( My ork friends are hating guard right now. I think as time goes by and people get a chance to tech out and adjust their list, the field will even out a bit. Though guard definitely got some love. I really wish there was a way to get some Ogryns in though. The forgeworld Ogryns just looks too cool, so maybe they make the "fun" list.

I should post up a battle report for a game I played one night this week with Space Marines versus the new IG. I decided to field Marneus so my army is effectively fearless. I also ran a librarian in terminator armor with a stormshield plopping a squad of Lost Legionnaires around the table. Marneus dropped his ordnance on the PSB the second turn and vaporized them. I had the rest of army consisting of two squads of Sternguard in drop pods with all combi meltas and some heavy flamers coming down one in a drop pod and the other in a rhino. The sternguard wrecked two tanks the first turn splitting into combat squads as they disembarked from the pod. Some of my rhinos carrying tacticals made it on top of the objectives and my opponent could never quite budge them off try as he might and he really tried hard. The Lost Legionnaires also killed their fair share of armor popping around with the Librarian. I'll be honest and say it was not a close game by any means and I effectively tabled my opponent by the fifth turn. He's no scrub by any stretch of the imagination so I guess all the new toys kind of threw him for a loop. My army was fairly small but well designed to crack armor wide open. If IG gets very popular I might even feel more inclined to break out the power armor again. To me IG are definitely better but I don't necessarily see them as top tier. We were playing a combination of objectives and KPs and I won both hands down. I would love to give a rematch and see what changes my friend would make.

G

BoxANT wrote:This is something that completely changes the metagame (as was demonstrated). Certain armies are going to be really vulnerable to this (poor necrons).

What were Paraiah's designed for again?

Takeing up space on a stores shelf due to stupid high price tag.

Great way to break in the new codex. Awesome report Shep, keep it up!

Green Blow Fly wrote:I should post up a battle report for a game I played one night this week with Space Marines versus the new IG. I decided to field Marneus so my army is effectively fearless. I also ran a librarian in terminator armor with a stormshield plopping a squad of Lost Legionnaires around the table. Marneus dropped his ordnance on the PSB the second turn and vaporized them. I had the rest of army consisting of two squads of Sternguard in drop pods with all combi meltas and some heavy flamers coming down one in a drop pod and the other in a rhino. The sternguard wrecked two tanks the first turn splitting into combat squads as they disembarked from the pod. Some of my rhinos carrying tacticals made it on top of the objectives and my opponent could never quite budge them off try as he might and he really tried hard. The Lost Legionnaires also killed their fair share of armor popping around with the Librarian. I'll be honest and say it was not a close game by any means and I effectively tabled my opponent by the fifth turn. He's no scrub by any stretch of the imagination so I guess all the new toys kind of threw him for a loop. My army was fairly small but well designed to crack armor wide open. If IG gets very popular I might even feel more inclined to break out the power armor again. To me IG are definitely better but I don't necessarily see them as top tier. We were playing a combination of objectives and KPs and I won both hands down. I would love to give a rematch and see what changes my friend would make.

G

I can see highly mechanized IG armies being very vulnerable to this type of SM army. They simply do not have the meat needed to protect their armor from DS meltas.

However, I would be interested to see how your SM army goes up against an IG army that utilized a large footprint of infantry platoons to force back DSers. I assume your opponent ran a more mech force?

But I agree, IG got a lot stronger, but I do not think they will become "the ultimate army" or anything. However, I do think they are now a serious competitive army now, either Tier1 or close to it.

IQ+Mystics seems solid enough protection from DS if the IG player is careful with his deployment knowing that there will be meltas falling on his army. DS meltas is an obvious threat to mech IG, so people who want to play a mech style list seriously will have to, at the very least, consider the IQ in their army. Meltas romping through the back lines are terrifying and while in Shep's example they outflanked onto the table, the more popular means of deploying them back there will likely be deepstrike.

I was playing against an army that was heavily mechanized. I would like to play against an army that has a higher ratio of foot sloggers though. I am curious to see how IG pans out by the middle of the summer... By then we should all know what are the most popular net lists. I know IG has gotten a lot of new toys to play with but I think a lot them won't see much action such as the deathstrike missile. There are definitely some strong combinations such as sour clam's 900 point core list he posted over on the tactics forum. I do think the vendetta is pretty sweet but then again it is only AV12 and fairly easy to drop in my opinion. I have never been afraid of multiple pie plates but the Russ will be harder to take down. It's nice to see people excited about an army not featuring Orks or daemons.

G

Aries_37 wrote:I also found it HILARIOUS when guard players argued that they weren't going to be broken because of

I don't think I heard a single Guard player say that their list wasn't going to be broken because of X bad choices. Furthermore how does having good units make an army broken? Guard aren't broken. They just might be competative for a change. The sad part is it comes from a few really good units, rather than a balanced Codex. Guard players will still ignore half of what's in there. How many killer lists are going to be bringing Leman Russ Exterminators? Basilisks? Penal Squads? Storm Troopers.

None of them.

Because Guard is now like every other Codex - one or two killer builds, no variation.

Aries_37 wrote:4)sergeants not being able to carry lasguns (ok this one makes just me lol so it gets let off the hook)

I clear-cut indication that you lack the reading comprehension skills to understand legitimate modelling concerns. A lot of people have made their Sergeants with Lasguns, and have since gone on to paint those models. I haven't - most of my guard are all 2nd Ed metal models - but for those that do have hordes of Lasgun Sergeants, the change to LP/CCW only has nothing to do with being broken, and has more to do with it being a complete fething pain in the ass to either re-model all the Sergeants or go out and buy new ones especially when there was no reason to remove that option in the first place.

Same deal with the HW Teams, only with the added effect of making HW teams more worthless.

Aries_37 wrote:As soon as I saw the codex I knew they would be broken.

That's a load of nonsense. No one can see that just from looking at a Codex for the first time. It takes people like Shep to number crunch and test it. Psyker Squads and Vendettas do not a broken Codex make. That and the Psyker Squad is hardly game breaking. First time it walks into a Fearless unit it ceases to be useful so has to shoot at it. First time it walks into a Fearless unit in cover shooting back... well then it's not so broken.

Don't fly off the handle with your "The sky is falling and/or broken" crap. The Guard Codex is not broken.

Useful =/= Broken.

Well Said HBMC.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Because Guard is now like every other Codex - one or two killer builds, no variation.

It will be interesting to see which builds can make the cut.

I think Mech/Vets will be in there.

I hope Platoon/Tanks/Arty still is viable.

But it will be interesting to see if anything else makes it. Perhaps something that takes advantage of a lot of Outflanking, or something interesting built around IronHand.

BoxANT wrote:
But it will be interesting to see if anything else makes it. Perhaps something that takes advantage of a lot of Outflanking, or something interesting built around IronHand.

Mechanized Platoon lead by Al´Raheem is the Guards answer to Korsarro Khan ( "Arabs" vs "Mongols" so to speak ). But I´m not sure if this will make it to the "top", might be a bit too gimmicky. Even with Advisors boosting your chances of getting the right time and flank, a bad roll might leave a substantial amount of firepower stranded on the wrong side of the table.

Straken is interesting. He is the only one of the Officers that can actually boost your line for melee ( Yes, I know that talking about Guard and melee in the same sentence is tantamount to heresy ). He might be the joker in the deck. I am using him tomorrow in a test game ( against Deamons of all armies ) to get some experience with the new dex.

Blackmoor wrote:I think that the weakness of your army is a MEQ shooty army that has some lascannons, and tries to sit back.

My army list has a MASSIVE blind-spot. I built this particular version to beat up on everyone's hardest tourney lists. No one takes lascannons, they kill armor with multi-meltas. Everyone I've played has been pretty hell-bent on closing the distance with IG and getting in my grill. So my list is designed to LOVE it when people get in my grill. 17 meltaguns will probably be irrelevant pretty soonish, especially against my gaming group. They'll stop getting in my face, and I'll need to add vanquishers and/or vendettas.

His particular list couldn't sit back just based on the fact that his lascannons (obliterators) are executioner food. I had first turn, so he had to try for the deep strike. Had he actually made a gunline list with long range armor, I would have been in trouble.

Khornatedemon wrote:I will agree with you on vendetta's though. Tell me again why a pred annihilator is 165 points and a vendetta gets to be 130?

Don't underestimate armor 13. Big difference between lootas, hydras and leman russ executioners penning you or just glancing you. You can't get the side shots so easily, but you have rad front armor and tank shock. Maybe not worth 35 points, but pred annihilators are a hard counter to my list absolutely. Melta-proof chimera eaters.

Khornatedemon wrote:Oh and shep and somnicide, lemme know if you get to test the vulkan list against the guard.

Looks like we're trying for wednesday.

Blackmoor wrote:I am old school, and I believe in the lascannon. I don't care much for the multimeltas that the kids are all talking about. If the game were to go down like you say, the guard army would have to take about 2-3 turns to get to me, and if I pop those Chimeras then he would be in a world of hurt trying to kill my vehicles.

Khornatedemon wrote:I'm having similar feelings on the lascannons. Currently I use all multi melta's in my tac squads but if i find the short range against the new guard becoming an issue i might try out a few lascannons instead. Kinda brings me back to third edition where I always had 2-3 las/plas squads to take out transports for my BA. In fact I dont think I've used lascannons since 3rd.

Yep. I'm not gonna try and claim that this list is going to be the best guard list in a couple months, but I wanted to get some wins in with them, as I haven't been able to for a long time. So I keyed HARD on the current metagame. Orks, demons, thunder hammers, lash

Orks- 2 units of PBS
demons- full mech, 17 meltaguns, 2 executioners
thunder hammers- full mech, 17 meltaguns, 2 executioners
lash- full mech, 17 meltaguns, 2 executioners

If obliterators, thunder hammers, plaguemarines and bloodcrushers disappear, then so will my executioners

If land raiders disappear, then so will some of my 17 meltaguns

If non-fearless, non-mechanized units disappear, then so will my PBS

If I took this list over and over, I'd start facing more predators, drop and pop style meltas, overloading outflanks, and/or longer range heavy armor spam.

Keep in mind in discussions about lascannons that you don't include space marines on foot (devestators or sternguard) as a hard counter. The leman russes are more than capable of picking up a combat squad in a single round, even in cover. And if you are close to the back table edge, even your survivors will get weakened off the table.

Blackmoor wrote:I might be able to make it to LA in a couple of weeks for the holiday and I might be able to test out my theories out in person.

I'd love to get a game in. Let me know when you are in town.

Shep wrote:
Keep in mind in discussions about lascannons that you don't include space marines on foot (devestators or sternguard) as a hard counter. The leman russes are more than capable of picking up a combat squad in a single round, even in cover. And if you are close to the back table edge, even your survivors will get weakened off the table.

I'm actually thinking that a normal land raider in addition to 2 tac squads shooting lascannons out of rhino's might be the way to go. I sit back and shot for a turn or 2 and pop as many chims as i can while my deep striking speeders try and hit the russ's.

Something along the line of

vulkan

2 dreads w/ MM

2 tac squads with las/flamer in rhino's

1 tac with mm/flamer/fist

2x 2 speeders with MM/HF

2 preds

standard LR with MM

depending on the deployment of the chims and missions i can potentially engage 6 a turn if the dreads can get withing 30" first turn. At least when I get around to testing new guard this is one of the builds i'm gonna try out. Might not do so bad against all comers either.