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I live in Hackney, East London. So I'm never more than a few metres from an illegal firearm, right?

Having said that, I have never even seen a gun that wasn't on a police officer or a soldier. Nobody I know owns a gun, much less in my gaming group.

djones520 wrote:I don't know about to many people in my group. I'm a big supporter of the 2nd Amendment though. Hate living in Illinois. I own 2 firearms right now, and I'll be picking up a third this summer.

jp400 wrote:What really gets me is how all you people without american flags next to your name seem to think that America is exactly like what some bad Hollywood movies depict. I hate to break your little cush bubble, but we cant buy Assault Rifles off the shelf at any gun show table or store. We are not all running around with a Six shooter on our hip forming lynch mobs and possies, and We are not driveing around shooting Chicago Typewriters out our car windows screaming "Cant Catch me Coppers See!"

It would be silly to assume that we all think everyone in America walks around with loaded guns in their pockets. However, a few people in this thread HAVE mentioned their 'carry' pieces.

The 2nd Amendment on the other hand is one of the greatest RAW vs RAI conflict in history, right?

The 2nd Amendment wrote:A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

So, RAW everyone in the US can have guns.
But, RAI everyone should also form themselves into an organised militia to use them, right?

If someone is a huge supporter of the 2nd Amendment, they should also be part a militia organisation? You know, a non-government controlled paramilitary force??? I have a sneaky feeling that's illegal even in the US...

Not running around forming posses? By the 2nd Amendment, you should be....

ArbitorIan wrote:I live in Hackney, East London. So I'm never more than a few metres from an illegal firearm, right?

Having said that, I have never even seen a gun that wasn't on a police officer or a soldier. Nobody I know owns a gun, much less in my gaming group.

djones520 wrote:I don't know about to many people in my group. I'm a big supporter of the 2nd Amendment though. Hate living in Illinois. I own 2 firearms right now, and I'll be picking up a third this summer.

jp400 wrote:What really gets me is how all you people without american flags next to your name seem to think that America is exactly like what some bad Hollywood movies depict. I hate to break your little cush bubble, but we cant buy Assault Rifles off the shelf at any gun show table or store. We are not all running around with a Six shooter on our hip forming lynch mobs and possies, and We are not driveing around shooting Chicago Typewriters out our car windows screaming "Cant Catch me Coppers See!"

It would be silly to assume that we all think everyone in America walks around with loaded guns in their pockets. However, a few people in this thread HAVE mentioned their 'carry' pieces.

The 2nd Amendment on the other hand is one of the greatest RAW vs RAI conflict in history, right?

The 2nd Amendment wrote:A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

So, RAW everyone in the US can have guns.
But, RAI everyone should also form themselves into an organised militia to use them, right?

If someone is a huge supporter of the 2nd Amendment, they should also be part a militia organisation? You know, a non-government controlled paramilitary force??? I have a sneaky feeling that's illegal even in the US...

Not running around forming posses? By the 2nd Amendment, you should be....

Muh ha ha ha.....

If you only knew...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPofRQdREyU&NR=1

One reason to own a gun...

I think it's fair to say that, on a population level of individuals who play wargames, the propotion who have a positive opinion of firearms is relatively higher than in those who don't play wargames.

This probably means that the proportion of those for whom it's legal to own a firearm, play wargames and do own a firearm is relatively higher than the general population.

Maybe.

And as for the 'we saved your asses in dubya dubya too' chat - I lol'd. And they say stereotypes are wrong!

ArbitorIan wrote:
The 2nd Amendment on the other hand is one of the greatest RAW vs RAI conflict in history, right?

No

The 2nd amendment is just as clear as any other. People who don’t like guns just try to make the issue as turbid as possible and argue that they founding founders didn’t mean to write what they wrote. Its not like they descended from a saucer and drop the Constitution and bill of rights on the ground and disappeared into the sky. The bill of rights was one of the greatest accomplishments of their lives. If you want to know what they felt about the amendment read their journals, their statements to the press, or their documented commentary. And this was from a time period in which the common man could posses the same armaments as the federal army – if anything we could argue that by not allowing US citizens to own tanks, stealth fights, depleted uranium rounds, or RPGs our 2nd amendment rights are being violated.

It would be as if a group that wanted to remove free speech was stating the 1st amendment was not written as intended, and that speech they disagree with should be outlawed, AND that the founding fathers would agree.

2nd Amendment
“A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.”

Anyone could form a militia, you don’t need permission. If you have a bunch of buddies go form a militia if you like. Our founding fathers probably pictured a Red Dawn like situation, in which the common man would have to overthrow oppressors either foreign or domestic.

Million wrote:I think it's fair to say that, on a population level of individuals who play wargames, the propotion who have a positive opinion of firearms is relatively higher than in those who don't play wargames.

This probably means that the proportion of those for whom it's legal to own a firearm, play wargames and do own a firearm is relatively higher than the general population.

I think the majority of Americas are in support of the 2nd amendment. You cannot take the media in American as a consensus for the country. While there are people who are very fearful and are negatively disposed towards guns there are also people of have similar reactions to dogs. I been to parties in which a guest made the host lock up his 30 pound terrier in his bedroom before entering his house, and I seen people get very nervous when an owner is walking their dog in a town park with or without a lease. In my area there is a place people have been letting their dogs go free and run around with other dogs in a field that which was donated by a wealthy woman for that express purpose. This has been the the standard practice for the last 30 years.

One person, I repeat ONE person who decided to take her regular walks there filed a complaint that people where letting their dogs free and the town put up lease law signs and even assigned tickets. One vocal woman against hundreds of other people AND the expressed wishes of the departed woman who donated the park, and she won her way, now the park is relatively deserted because people take their dogs to other more distant dog-friendly parks, and the one woman that complained doesn’t walk there anymore simple because a handful of people still let their dogs go free (me included) and if I am ticketed I will eagerly argue my class in court.

If you take this case and compare it to gun laws you can understand the similarity. Only one person who had a somewhat irrational attitude towards canines was able to have them removed from the field by law only have people violate the law by bringing their dogs there anyway. Not that I am eager to compare myself to a criminal who carries and unlicensed firearm or brings their gun into a gun free zone. But, I think you get the point.

My current group, not so much.

My previous group was a gun-nutty as you're likely to find in the UK. Several shooters and a whole bunch of airsofters.

ArbitorIan wrote:

If someone is a huge supporter of the 2nd Amendment, they should also be part a militia organisation? You know, a non-government controlled paramilitary force??? I have a sneaky feeling that's illegal even in the US...

I was part of an Elite Para-Military force.... the........ Eagle Scout!






Actually, It isnt. It is however watched like a hungry fat kid in a candy store by our government.

Check out the Michigan Militia for a very good example. (Mad respect for these guys, they prove that you can form a Militia and not be a bunch of psyco nutjobs living in bunkers fearing the government)

ArbitorIan wrote:


If someone is a huge supporter of the 2nd Amendment, they should also be part a militia organisation? You know, a non-government controlled paramilitary force??? I have a sneaky feeling that's illegal even in the US...

Actually it is legal, but they are normally just full to the brim with the nuttiest of nutters.

I own a number of guns, a MkII ruger target, an FNH 5.7, and a FNH PS90, I don't have my CC yet but its on the list. One of the nice things about living in South Carolina, take the safety class ( varies in length but the good ones are about 12 hours) pay the Fee and you have your CC. My group has 2 guys with CC's 4 other guys besides them and myself own guns. 3 of them are ex military.

I think really the Ssecond Amendment is there to protect the other Amendments, period. Goverment in general find it very difficult to deal with decent to well arm populace. I will back this though up with a Quote from the most important founding father.

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."

Benjamin Franklin, 1759

@Tek: Its perfectly safe so long as you keep a level head and are not a total dumbarse. Also its not hard to make sure said firearm is unloaded for said photo op. In which case said firearm is as deadly as a heavy paperweight.

My game group is 50% gun owners.

A day at the range for most of us is as fun as a day of gaming.

My game group is almost 50% military; reserves, guard, active and retired too. We have Navy, Marines, Army and AF too.

Almost 50% of my game group is over seas or in Washington now. I pray for their health of body and mind and their safe returns!

If you like playing wargames of any stripe, I suggest, learning about, and firing, real weapons can be most beneficially educational as well as entertaining. I think everyone should try it at least once, it is key in understanding the difference between fantasy and reality. Like any hobby, it is filled with people who have different reasons. For the curious, local gun clubs/ranges and stores rent pistols for the range and often have classes.

Learning to handle, operate and respect a firearm is part of what makes a complete adult in America. As much as learning to read, swim, drive or balance a checkbook. But not having to is also a part of the greatness of our nation.

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower

Well everyone pretty much but then again I'm in the army .

i dont have a gun but i know a good bit about tanks and ww11 vechicles.
................go sherman v1

gaming group: 11 persons
gun owner: 3
thats about 27%

Canada statistics (source: guncontrol.ca, 1998)
firearms in canada: 8.6 M
population: 30.2 M
that's about 28%

So, My gaming group is pretty normal, I suppose.

I own a double barrelled breach loading shotgun, technically. In that I bought it, and it was licenced to me for a while when I was younger. It lives with my uncles at home now, and one of them holds the licence. I used to use it for hunting, but I'm not much interested in shooting animals anymore, I'm happy enough watching them through binoculars.
So, probably not a gun nut. No one else in my group owns a gun as far as I know. Though we do call our arms "guns" and talk about "tickets to the gun show" *kisses biceps* a lot. So, that may be gun nutty.

I reckon some of the american posters could do with laying off the critisism of the UK and other nations if they are going to get all upset about a poor choice of words though. Glass houses, stones, all that.

Da Boss wrote:
I reckon some of the american posters could do with laying off the critisism of the UK and other nations if they are going to get all upset about a poor choice of words though. Glass houses, stones, all that.

And I reckon that some of the Non-American Posters should Lay off with the US critisism and supposed "lack" of gun control... And posting about US laws and views that they have no real experiences with.

I think its funny that this is the first thread that the Americans have put our foot down and said enough is enough with the Anti-US Bull and people are looking at us like were off our rocker for doing so.

Shall I post links to past Us bashing threads from the Off Topic Section of Dakka?

Frazzled you know full well what im talking about, you have been in several of those threads yourself at the center of attack.

I could post links to bashing of other countries just as easily. I agree education is needed in these debates- I enjoy them for that reason! I've learned lots about america by arguing, being wrong and then getting corrected! It's great.
At the same time, there's a difference between debate and overblown taunting. I think what some posters were posting here falls into the category of taunting. I don't agree with it in the other threads when it happens, though it is possible I keep quieter there because I assume an american will stick up for the US.

Mango wrote:1. A firearm is a tool, nothing more.
2. A firearm is a mechanical device.
3. It uses a chemical propellant to push a lump of metal at high speed with some degree of accuracy.

right first up, I'm very much of the Voltaire school of thought.

however, WTF re. the above.

why on earth would you require a tool to propel a lump of metal with a high degree of accuracy?, perhaps you're in desperate need to move a pile of small bits of metal to a point some distance away and don't want the tiresome task of moving them yourself?

or perhaps you need to make small holes in something a distance away, presumably for ventilation?

Guns are to kill and wound things, saying anything else is disengenuous, its like saying my car is mainly a tool for burning fossil fuels.

I can think of situations when having a tool to kill and maim things could be usefull, so man up and call a spade a fething shovel.

I am offended by the use of "gun nut". In the USA, citizens have the right to bear arms. Doing so doesn't make one crazy as long as no laws are broken. Nothing wrong having a firearm for practice at a range and personal defense. Please, don't call gun owners nuts just for exercising our Constitutional rights.

Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut Gun nut


One person in my group owns a gun.

And I reckon that some of the Non-American Posters should Lay off with the US critisism and supposed "lack" of gun control... And posting about US laws and views that they have no real experiences with.

There are tonnes of gun laws in america and very little effective gun control. The laws are poorly implemented and the populace disregards them anyway. There is a lack of gun control in america.

I think his intent was to show that a gun doesn't kill a person, a person kills a person. A gun isn't going to kill anyone without someone pulling the trigger.

My group started gaming with this English guy a few years ago after he emmigrated to the US.

We made him buy a glock.



As for me, I am a cowboy. I have a six-shooter, drink whiskey and punch cows, everyone in Texas does.

Sgt_Scruffy wrote:I think his intent was to show that a gun doesn't kill a person, a person kills a person. A gun isn't going to kill anyone without someone pulling the trigger.

Which goes without saying. Guns are just point and click single button devices designed to kill people. Just because the person choses doesn't mean when he makes his choice he should have a wonderous little pushbutton solution to the problem of other human life.

I hate the saying "guns don't kill people".

This is my solution to the problem of human life.

NO_SUCH_LUCK wrote:This is my solution to the problem of human life.

Guns don't kill people. Daleks do.

Hurr!

Oh come now, Shuma. I know you've shot guns before. Actually hitting something is a bit more difficult than just "push-button."

There are plenty of other things that are legal and just as deadly. Cars for one. Yes, cars aren't built specifically for killing, but a lot more people die because of them than from guns. It's a good thing they haven't started designing cars for killing - then we might have a real problem.

Oh come now, Shuma. I know you've shot guns before. Actually hitting something is a bit more difficult than just "push-button."

Thats true in combat, not in murder. Generally civilian gun crime isn't against a moving target with any sort of cover. It's pretty rare for a 7/11 employee or a cheating wife to be in a situation where the party thats holding the gun will miss. It's not particularly hard to use a gun for the first time and hit something across the room from you.

There are plenty of other things that are legal and just as deadly. Cars for one. Yes, cars aren't built specifically for killing, but a lot more people die because of them than from guns. It's a good thing they haven't started designing cars for killing - then we might have a real problem.

They have those, but they are pretty expensive. I think they're called tanks .

I'm the only gun nut in my group. I guess it comes naturally after being in service to Uncle Sam. My gun-nutty-ness must have predated my service though, because I signed up to shoot the mortars. Biggest guns you can get and still fire them by hand!

ShumaGorath wrote:

Oh come now, Shuma. I know you've shot guns before. Actually hitting something is a bit more difficult than just "push-button."

Thats true in combat, not in murder. Generally civilian gun crime isn't against a moving target with any sort of cover. It's pretty rare for a 7/11 employee or a cheating wife to be in a situation where the party thats holding the gun will miss. It's not particularly hard to use a gun for the first time and hit something across the room from you.

There are plenty of other things that are legal and just as deadly. Cars for one. Yes, cars aren't built specifically for killing, but a lot more people die because of them than from guns. It's a good thing they haven't started designing cars for killing - then we might have a real problem.

They have those, but they are pretty expensive. I think they're called tanks .

So I take it from some of your posts that you advocate stricter gun control laws. Tell me, how you'd go about making people who don't give a damn about them listen to them?

So I take it from some of your posts that you advocate stricter gun control laws. Tell me, how you'd go about making people who don't give a damn about them listen to them?

I don't believe that half assing the laws really works. Either ban them or don't. Standardised psychological screening and much more strict punishment for selling guns unlawfully are about the best compromise I can really think of. I believe that more understandable bans like assault rifles, autoloading shotguns, and sub machine guns are also healthy for a civilian nation.

I would love to see all non hunting weapons banned entirely from the nation. Civilian militias are a joke and a liability in a major land invasion, and theres no way this populace is going to overthrow the government without the support of the military (meaning the weapons have little to do with it). Theres really just no reason to have them around other than sport and murder.

The big issue is that the are constitunionally lawful. And I don't expect that to ever change. Americans are in love with guns, so until the end of times they will hug them until someone they know gets shot then they will try and ban them. We'll always have crappy half assed gunlaws.

Here's a picture of a mortar similar to the one I manned.
Side bubble, side bubble, TNC!