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Stygian Mole wrote:I'd say weapons are counted so Angron gets Gorechild and Gorefather, Mortarion gets his Scythe, Russ gets Gormenjarl, the frost blade that cuts mountains in half (as well as Freki & Geri), etc...

and Sanguinus gets the Spear of Telesto

i would have to say Dorn with that nasty Soulspear, nothing like a weapon that uses the same technology as a vortex grenade to cut through its foes.

Dorn, because he has a vortex Spear (remove from play anything under the template, etc.)

Gwar! wrote:

Dreadwinter wrote:

Sternguard_rock wrote:Dorn because only a BAD **** MOTHER ****** could be the primarch of the Crimson Fists.

Crimson Fists technically have no Primarch.

So, he was never a Crimson Fist, never lead them into combat. They are just a bastard child.....

Way to fail at Fluff. Crimson Fists did have a Primarch, the same way all the Ultramarines Successors have Gulliman as their Primarch.

Or are you saying Crimson Fist Geneseed is made of out sunshine and unicorn farts?

While their geneseed came from Dorn and the Imperial Fists, Dorn himself was never a Crimson Fist.

So Technically, while it could be viewed in a skewed way that they had a Primarch since they were once part of the Imperial Fists. When they became their own Chapter, they no longer had a Primarch. Rogal Dorn did not lead them into battle, he had little to do with them other than they were once Imperial Fists.

So, if you wanna say that he is their Primarch just for gaks and giggles, then sure?

But really, just a bastard child.....

LOL. You DO realise that every single one of the first batch of Crimson Fists were just resprayed Imperial Fists. You do know about the Second Founding, the Break up of the Legions and all that jazz?

You also do realise that a chapters Primarch is the one who's Geneseed they carry, regardless of founding?

The Crimson Fists recognize Dorn as their Primarch, just the same as the Imperial Fists and Black Templars (and the Soul Drinkers too for that matter). The IF have the honor of continuing the legacy of the Legion.

Also, I wouldn't be shocked if Dorn did, at one point post-Heresy and post-Legion breakup, lead the Crimson Fists to battle even though he was still wearing canary yellow. Dorn initially opposed the breakup of the Legions (iirc, Dorn felt that it wasn't fair to tell some of the Legion that they could no longer have the honor of being an Imperial Fist). I could easily believe that he took some direct control of the CF after the break-up to 'ease the transition' to being their own Chapter.

Indeed. In fact, Dorn was initialy the biggest opponent of the Codex, even more than Vulkan, Khan and even Russ. However, Gulliman manipulated him (and Pulled the "You let Daddy Die do what I tell you bitch" card) and now the Imperial Fists are one of only Two 1st Founding Chapters to stick to the Codex Wholesale (other than the Ultramarines, the rest of the 1st founding either have a altered version or just Plain Ignore it )

Alpharius, 'cos there is two of him, and neither plays fair.

Then Sanguinnius and Russ tied.

Indeed. In fact, Dorn was initialy the biggest opponent of the Codex, even more than Vulkan, Khan and even Russ. However, Gulliman manipulated him (and Pulled the "You let Daddy Die do what I tell you bitch" card) and now the Imperial Fists are one of only Two 1st Founding Chapters to stick to the Codex Wholesale (other than the Ultramarines, the rest of the 1st founding either have a altered version or just Plain Ignore it )

Don't forget the part where the other Primarchs and their first and second founding chapters also attacked the Imperial Fists for their refusal to adhere to the Codex at first, and considered them an enemy of the Imerium until Dorn broke up the Legion to stop the conflicts

That said, me, because I just win.

Gwar! wrote:LOL. You DO realise that every single one of the first batch of Crimson Fists were just resprayed Imperial Fists. You do know about the Second Founding, the Break up of the Legions and all that jazz?

Holy crap?! No way! I did not hint at that in my post at all!

Wow, I mean. This just blows my mind!

But in all seriousness, when they split and got their own Chapter Master, they pretty much went off on their own without a Primarch to lead them. Crimson Fists were supposed to be the most levelheaded of the Imperial Fists, and they all got lumped together. Once they were split they wholeheartedly began to follow the Codex Astartes to the T. (Other than the First Company being the Crusade Company)

Gwar! wrote:You also do realise that a chapters Primarch is the one who's Geneseed they carry, regardless of founding?

With this argument, all chapters would have a Primarch. Since geneseed is from the original Primarchs, no matter how mutated it gets down the line.

Lets face it, Rogal Dorn would only be their Primarch in name. Which means they pretty much have no Primarch.

Dreadwinter wrote:With this argument, all chapters would have a Primarch. Since geneseed is from the original Primarchs, no matter how mutated it gets down the line.

CONGRATS! You have just worked out how Space Marines Work!

All chapters do have a Primarch, the one whom their geneseed orginaly came from. 90% of Marines have Gulliman as their Primarch. Crimson Fists, Black Templars and Imperial Fists all have Dorn as their Primarch.

All the Primarchs are in fact from the Alpha Legion.

Just as planned.

Gwar! wrote:

Dreadwinter wrote:With this argument, all chapters would have a Primarch. Since geneseed is from the original Primarchs, no matter how mutated it gets down the line.

CONGRATS! You have just worked out how Space Marines Work!

All chapters do have a Primarch, the one whom their geneseed orginaly came from. 90% of Marines have Gulliman as their Primarch. Crimson Fists, Black Templars and Imperial Fists all have Dorn as their Primarch.

In the fact that their Geneseed came from these Primarchs.

But a Primarch leads a Chapter/Legion. Crimson Fists were never lead by a Primarch.

I don't think you understand the argument.

Dreadwinter wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Dreadwinter wrote:With this argument, all chapters would have a Primarch. Since geneseed is from the original Primarchs, no matter how mutated it gets down the line.

CONGRATS! You have just worked out how Space Marines Work!

All chapters do have a Primarch, the one whom their geneseed orginaly came from. 90% of Marines have Gulliman as their Primarch. Crimson Fists, Black Templars and Imperial Fists all have Dorn as their Primarch.

In the fact that their Geneseed came from these Primarchs.

But a Primarch leads a Chapter/Legion. Crimson Fists were never lead by a Primarch.

I don't think you understand the argument.

Just because a Primarch leads a Chapter/Legion, doesnt mean not being lead by one makes your Chapter/Legion Primarch'less.
If your geneseed stems from Dorn, Dorn is your Chapter's Primarch, regardless of whether or not he led them to battle himself.

It couldn't be Alpharius or Omegon. They were of the same ability and one got pwnd by Guilliman! The archsmurf!
As for Dorn and his vortspear, he'd have to hit them first...

Ronin wrote:

Dreadwinter wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Dreadwinter wrote:With this argument, all chapters would have a Primarch. Since geneseed is from the original Primarchs, no matter how mutated it gets down the line.

CONGRATS! You have just worked out how Space Marines Work!

All chapters do have a Primarch, the one whom their geneseed orginaly came from. 90% of Marines have Gulliman as their Primarch. Crimson Fists, Black Templars and Imperial Fists all have Dorn as their Primarch.

In the fact that their Geneseed came from these Primarchs.

But a Primarch leads a Chapter/Legion. Crimson Fists were never lead by a Primarch.

I don't think you understand the argument.

Just because a Primarch leads a Chapter/Legion, doesnt mean not being lead by one makes your Chapter/Legion Primarch'less.
If your geneseed stems from Dorn, Dorn is your Chapter's Primarch, regardless of whether or not he led them to battle himself.

This all has vague similarities to sperm donors and fatherhood.....

This all has vague similarities to sperm donors and fatherhood.....

That's an uh... "Interesting" way of putting it.