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Some additions...

1: Necrons - "Borrowed" from Dr Who Cybermen
2: Tyranids - "Borrowed" from Starship Troopers
3: Space Marines - "Borrowed" from Dune (Sardaukar) & Starship Troopers and Rogue Trooper
4: The Chaos Gods - "Borrowed" from the Elric Saga

Just as a small point, there were other sci-fi movies out there at the time, with armored dudes in space...(with they had deplorable aim generally) I think folks are getting way too hung up on the "Marines" moniker that got stuck on the grunts in one movie that came out prolly almost -too- close to 40k to have much influence unless GW had a less than one year development cycle (for the tyranid/genestealer advocates remember, Aliens was a sequel after all)

As for Chaos.. that's pure Moorcock, down to the eight pointed star...

Doctor Optimal wrote:

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:Well as I've been looking at warhammer fantasy I realize almost every single race is just a 'space' version of a fantasy army. Undead=necrons, so on and so forth. I almost think we should do a thread to see where the fantasy armies came from, as they came before 40k, right?

What complete nonsense. Where are the Space Dwarves, hmmmm?

one word
SQUATS !!!!!

George Spiggott wrote:2: Tyranids - "Borrowed" from Starship Troopers
3: Space Marines - "Borrowed" from Dune (Sardaukar) & Starship Troopers and Rogue Trooper

People keep saying these, but they still don't make any sense. Name one way that Tyranids are anything like the ST bugs, aside from the fact that they're fighting humanity.

Why I call threads like this exercises is ignorance is because you have statements like 'Space Marines - "Borrowed" from Dune (Sardaukar) & Starship Troopers and Rogue Trooper.' How exactly, does a marine so strongly reflect a sardauker? That's why I called out 'Space Marines 40k - borrowed from Colonial Marines Aliens' as being so poorly thought out. You're literally down to 0 similarities there, aside from the fact their both called 'marines.' In a previous thread, one poster included comparing the Rhino to the APC as a rip-off, ignoring the fact in any given setting, an armored ground transport is probably going to share certain characteristics. Power armor is not a unique concept, elite, brutally trained shock troops are not either. If you tried to make a direct comparison, death world troops, like Catachans, would adhere most closely to what Sardaukar are supposed to be, not Space Marines.

Then there are the really silly things, like the OPs #10, which doesn't even make sense.

10: Raven Guard- "Borrowed" from Edgar Allen Poes, poem The Raven. ( I realize that there was really no sublety to this "borrowing" but still they could have been a bit more original)

I'd ask him to explain just what this was supposed to mean, but since he decided he was going to take his toys and go home, I guess he's focusing on Corax's final statement of 'Nevermore.' Which, actually, would be a reference or an homage, since it's the leader of the Ravenguard making a meta-reference to the most famous Raven in western literature.

generalgrog wrote:This is not meant as a criticism but more of a bit of education. We all know that GW(and a lot of sci fi in general) "borrows" ideas from other sources and makes it their own. So I thought it might be fun and educational to point out the instances of GW "borrowing" ideas.


5: The concept of the "Warp" and traveling in the warp- "Borrowed" from Dune.



GG

edited the title to bring clarity to the subject..GG

don't want to go into the quantum mechanics of it but guild navigators (over stage 3)"BEND" space and as such travel without moving ,all travel is instantaneous you just ARE where you want to go and AREN'T where you were

Bookwrack wrote:

George Spiggott wrote:2: Tyranids - "Borrowed" from Starship Troopers
3: Space Marines - "Borrowed" from Dune (Sardaukar) & Starship Troopers and Rogue Trooper

People keep saying these, but they still don't make any sense. Name one way that Tyranids are anything like the ST bugs, aside from the fact that they're fighting humanity.

Let's see.

Rogue Trader - second imprint, 1987.

Starship Troopers - 1997 - about 10 years after space marines and tyranids
Dune - written in 1965 - ok, maybe there is the possibility of a link, but nothing "aesthetic" as its a book
Starcraft - computer game - 1997 - 10 years after Rogue Trader

So, 2/3s of the "sources" were created 10 years after Rogue Trader, which included Space Marines and Tyranids.

The best you could do would be to argue that GW has changed its aesthetic to more closely mirror the movies and computer games since their release.

So, actually, its more like:

Myth (book, papyrus, stone tablets)
Tolkien (book)
Dune (book)
Moorcock (book)
Armour (Steakley) (1984?) (book)
Aliens (1986) (movie)
GW (Rogue Trader 1987) - the stealers in RT look nothing like Gieger's Aliens
Predator (1987) (movie)
Starship Troopers (1997) (movie)
Starcraft (1997) (computer game)

So where exactly is the "rip off"?

*edited to get my dates in order

GW ripped off:

English Soccer Hooligens: Orks
Judeo-Christianism: Daemons, Chaos, Inquisition
Folklore: Elves, Dwarves, Vampires, Orks
Modern Armies: IG
E.T.: Tau
Robbie the Robot: Necrons
Elves (from Folklore): Craftworld Eldar
Craftworld Eldar: Dark Eldar
GW ORIGINAL: SPACE MARINES, LETS MAKE 20 CODEXES FOR EM!!! Cuz we didn't steal them from nobodies!

darkangels_rule wrote:don't want to go into the quantum mechanics of it but guild navigators (over stage 3)"BEND" space and as such travel without moving ,all travel is instantaneous you just ARE where you want to go and AREN'T where you were

Um, the -movies- may do it that way, the Dune novels don't... Hyperspace travel in the Dune universe existed -BEFORE- the Guild, which didn't exist till after the Butlerian Jihad, and BEFORE the Spice was discovered. It existed -after- the fall of the Guild in the Starvation and Scattering, and the Navigators were replaced with machines. It's not -explictily- stated in the books (though the non-cannonical Encyclopedia lays it out) but reading between the lines, the hyperdrive is a variation of the antigrav/shield Holtzman effect.

Navigators -steer- the ships, they don't move them...

Starship Troopers - 1997 - about 10 years after space marines and tyranids

Based on the 1959 novel, Space Marines are also mentioned in Heinlein's "Space Cadet",

Dune - written in 1965 - ok, maybe there is the possibility of a link, but nothing "aesthetic" as its a book

First off, books can convey a "look and feel" as well, though good description, plot and tone, and then there is the small matter of the 1984 David Lynch Movie...

Also insert in the sources...

Lensmen 1934-1948(books) - armored goons, galactic enforcers
Alien 1979(film) - dark future feel, xenomorphs
Star Wars 1977(film) Space Empire, with armored goons
Battlestar Galactica 1978(film) Space Empire, with armored goons
War against the Chtorr 1983-1993(books) Xeno-ecological invasion

Nerf_IG wrote:

Firstly, if you get a chance to read SST then by all means take it. In this political rant/novel the Mobile Infantry are power-armor wearing badasses who jump around on their jump jets like House of Pain could only dream of.

Also, Raven Guard are indeed a Poe reference. One of the quotes in the fluff ends with "darkness is there and nothing more". (It's a "nod" to "The Raven" for all you uncultured heathens out there)

Or their Primarch's last words being "Nevermore." They are an Homage not a copy or borrowing

Starship Troopers - 1997 - about 10 years after space marines and tyranids

Study your literature before posting. They're based on the novel, not the movie. But you're not completely off target - the plastic Cadian minis are heavily influenced by the Soldiers in the movie. But the Space Marines are quite close to the description in the novel, which is a good 30 or so years older than 40K.

Are they really? It's been quite a while since I read ST, but IIRC, you never really get a good physical description of the suits, and in capability they're a whole lot more like souped up crisis suits than anything the marines have.

Review Space Marines from Rogue Trader, not the current fluff. iirc, the backpacks were all called jump packs or something similar. Crisis Suits in current fluff do more closely resemble SST novel suits than power armor.

GW does a good job of taking archetypes, plagarizing some ideas, and then making it all look just different enough to not be someone else's creation.

Marines are similar to a number of ideas in other sources, as are tyranids, necrons, and pretty much everything else in 40k. The Hammerhead is the closest to the hover tanks in Hammer's Slammers, etc.

And that's not just a complete coincidence? I presume of course you're comparing the rail gun to the powerguns.

Bookwrack wrote: Name one way that Tyranids are anything like the ST bugs, aside from the fact that they're fighting humanity.

Don’t be obtuse, there are plenty, being insectoid being psychically controlled by leader ‘bugs’ having ‘biological’ weapons being biologically adapted to a particular form of combat, I’m sure I could think of more.

Bookwrack wrote:Why I call threads like this exercises is ignorance is because you have statements like 'Space Marines - "Borrowed" from Dune (Sardaukar) & Starship Troopers and Rogue Trooper.' How exactly, does a marine so strongly reflect a sardauker?

Apart from being former convicts (as Space Marines were in RT) forming the elite of the Emperors armies? Space Marines are a blend of ideas from various sources, Dune is just one of them. Dune has literally dozens of themes that appear in 40k, Dune is a massive influence on 40k.

Cruentus wrote:Starship Troopers - 1997 - about 10 years after space marines and tyranids

FAIL!

Cruentus wrote:
Starship Troopers - 1997 - about 10 years after space marines and tyranids

FAIL!

Hey now, he's been informed twice of his error. A fail it may be, but there's no need to be so outward about it after he's already been learned

Death watch was taken from star wars.
aswell as the name rynn.

Hmm....I'm going to have to read the original star ship troopers novel, to see the similarities. I actually liked the movie by the way.


GG

The Mobile Infantry in the novel is very different than in the movie. I hated the movie, partially because I wanted the MI to be running around in power armor with jump packs and dropping tac nukes, and partially because I couldn't stand Casper van Diem or Denise Richards.

George Spiggott wrote:

Bookwrack wrote: Name one way that Tyranids are anything like the ST bugs, aside from the fact that they're fighting humanity.

Don’t be obtuse, there are plenty, being insectoid being psychically controlled by leader ‘bugs’ having ‘biological’ weapons being biologically adapted to a particular form of combat, I’m sure I could think of more.

Than please do so because the examples you've given are almost uselessly vague, if not probably incorrect. For one thing, the bug warriors actually carried guns, and unlike the movie, the bugs were technologically advanced. Since you seem to be trying to draw a comparison to tyranids, the only common factor you really have is that there's a hive mind thing going on.

Mars.Techpriest wrote:2: Tyranids- "Borrowed" from Starship Troopers, Starcraft
3: Space Marines- "Borrowed" from Starship Troopers, Starcraft
5: The concept of navigators from Dune.
6: Tau-"Borrowed" from Roswell Greys.
9: The term Nurgle- "Borrowed" from the Elric Saga (I think it's older then that actualy)

Um...Starship Troopers circa 1957.

Starcraft circa 1998.

40K circa 1987.

Starcraft didn't have much to do with Space Marines, but it's a pretty simple leap to assume that Starship Troopers did, especially since Avalon Hill had a Starship Troopers board game out at the time that 40K was created.

Bookwrack wrote:Than please do so because the examples you've given are almost uselessly vague, if not probably incorrect. For one thing, the bug warriors actually carried guns, and unlike the movie, the bugs were technologically advanced. Since you seem to be trying to draw a comparison to Tyranids, the only common factor you really have is that there's a hive mind thing going on.

Uselessly vague? There are clear parallels that you are simply ignoring, they're never going to be clear and in your face for obvious legal reasons (Moorcock aside) and because a novel has no distinct imagery (being a novel). How does actually carrying guns change anything? So did Tyranids until 3rd edition (they had boltguns in RT).

You're really stretching trying to prove these 'parallels.' Hive-minded aliens are not unique, and given the ST's arachnids were (iirc) described as nightmare spiders with guns, you're attempt to link the two is getting weaker and weaker.

You're just plain wrong about a novel having no distinct imagery. That's a style choice on the part of the author, and Heinlein didn't dwell much on physical appearances in that book. However what he did describe for both power armor, and the arachnids bears very little
resemblance to 40k. You can keep trying to make the stretch, but you've got very little to work with.

The problem with topics like these is people always get confused by what's just thematic coincidence, and what is actual inspiration or deliberate reference. It would be very hard to make a robotic space skeleton that did not make people think of the t-800, so they had fun with Terminator references.

Someone referenced John Steakley's Armor above, and that just doesn't work at all. Humans fighting bug-aliens is a common trope in sci-fi. Power armor too is a common trope, and in that book is unlike anything fielded in 40k (maybe it'd be the equivalent of a nuclear powered wraithlord). People like harping on 'oh, Dune Navigators and 40K Navigators!' despite the fact that since it's their job to 'navigate' the ship (in completely different ways) that's just about the most sensible name for them. Just because something came before 40K doesn't mean GW borrowed from it.

thank you

Doctor Optimal wrote:

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:Well as I've been looking at warhammer fantasy I realize almost every single race is just a 'space' version of a fantasy army. Undead=necrons, so on and so forth. I almost think we should do a thread to see where the fantasy armies came from, as they came before 40k, right?

What complete nonsense. Where are the Space Dwarves, hmmmm?

They were called squats, they were around in 2nd edition.

Bookwrack wrote:The problem with topics like these is people always get confused by what's just thematic coincidence, and what is actual inspiration or deliberate reference. It would be very hard to make a robotic space skeleton that did not make people think of the t-800, so they had fun with Terminator references.

People like harping on 'oh, Dune Navigators and 40K Navigators!' despite the fact that since it's their job to 'navigate' the ship (in completely different ways) that's just about the most sensible name for them. Just because something came before 40K doesn't mean GW borrowed from it.

If only there was something else linking them like the both have extended lives are genetically different to normal humans or that they see reality differently. Oh wait! There are too many parallels with Dune for it to be coincidental.

Kreedos wrote:

Doctor Optimal wrote:

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:Well as I've been looking at warhammer fantasy I realize almost every single race is just a 'space' version of a fantasy army. Undead=necrons, so on and so forth. I almost think we should do a thread to see where the fantasy armies came from, as they came before 40k, right?

What complete nonsense. Where are the Space Dwarves, hmmmm?

They were called squats, they were around in 2nd edition.

Thank you!



I had never heard of Squats before and certainly wasn't making a fairly obvious joke.


You've enlightened my life, Kreedos, and for that I'll be eternally thankful.

Bookwrack wrote:You're just plain wrong about a novel having no distinct imagery. That's a style choice on the part of the author, and Heinlein didn't dwell much on physical appearances in that book. However what he did describe for both power armor, and the arachnids bears very little
resemblance to 40k. You can keep trying to make the stretch, but you've got very little to work with.

The problem with topics like these is people always get confused by what's just thematic coincidence, and what is actual inspiration or deliberate reference. It would be very hard to make a robotic space skeleton that did not make people think of the t-800, so they had fun with Terminator references.

Exactly.

And if you read my original post, I mentioned Starship Troopers as the movie version. I am well aware of the book (I liked it), but as mentioned, there is no really distinct imagery of the suits.

I also had the Starship Troopers game from Avalon Hill way back in the day, and those "Troopers" looked like the 50's era spacemen with dome helmets. Hardly "Space Marine".

Having read Armour, and Starship Troopers, I formed an idea of what I thought they looked like. And if I were to describe what I thought they looked like, everyone else in this thread would probably describe them differently.

And my main point is that is it possible that GW was influenced by the aesthetic of the movies prior to '87 and after? Sure. Is that a "rip-off"? No. Do Nids look exactly like gieger's aliens? No. Do the starship troopers (movie) bugs look like Nids? Maybe. Did they influence each other? Likely.

This is a chicken and egg argument. For every example that claims to prove how GW ripped something off (or paid Homage - Poe and Ravenguard, Lion'el Johnson and Dark Angel), there are examples that clearly show there was nothing to actually rip off (i.e. vague descriptions of the suits in starship troopers). If someone at GW read the original Starship Troopers, then sculpted the RT-era Marines based on what he/she thought they looked like, then its at best derivative. If GW changes their sculpts due to the influence of Star Wars, then again, derivative, but not a rip-off.

Just about everything in Sci-fi and Fantasy is derivative of earlier works. I doubt there is one company out there that produces anything "original".

*edited for clarity and absolutes

Bookwrack wrote:People like harping on 'oh, Dune Navigators and 40K Navigators!' despite the fact that since it's their job to 'navigate' the ship (in completely different ways) that's just about the most sensible name for them.

Despite my bashing on folks before over the -steer the ship- vs -move the ship- issues between the the Dune Movie and the Dune Novels, the Navigator thing is a reasonably solid homage at the least..

Just to go through point by point.. from the Novel, and RT

It's not just a job description, Navigators in both books are a -race- of human mutants, that have -no other existance- all they -ever- do is steer ships around.

The Navigational ability is psi based, though it differs modestly in nature (Guild Navigator are precogs, Imperial Navigators are clairvoyant), this is not a common trope in Sci fi, the only major case I can think of, being David Brin, where in the Uplift books with 5 diffrent levels of hyperspace, and psi turned up to 11, it makes the Warp seem tame at times (though you can get though hyperspace without psi, some alien alliances use psi's who warp reality as hyperdrives) EDIT, McCaffery's Pegasus books feature psi powered space travel as well, but it's more of the psi staying home, and telporting the ship in that case..

The physical mutations described are similar - spindly bodies, webbed hands and feet, I seem to have worn out my copy of Dune Messiah, or I'd be more explicit..

The major point of diffrence of course is that the Navigators in RT don't need the Spice, over time 40k has drifted away from the homage...

Just on one small point, there is -one little bit- of Dune, in this case, the movie, and not the book where the Saurdakar -do- resemble the Space Marines, in those brief shots in the intial and final battles, you see the imperial armored goons in action.

metallifan wrote:Indeed a lot of GW's line was inspired by Fantasy as to what they should include, but the influences on unit appearance were drawn from history and the big sellers of the 80's - the novels, movies, and TV shows that defined Sci-fi.

Daemons were indeed intended as an "either-or" army, though it wasn't much of a gamble. GW figured that there would be a decent market among existing Chaos players to add yet more scariness to their armies, and new players would just be drawn in by the badassness of Daemons. It didn't work as well as they hoped, but I would say it was nonetheless successful.

something GW seems to avoid like a Vegetarian avoids my refrigerator (that is until I hunt them down and butcher their tasty herbivore meat).

O.o I hate Vegans/Vegetarians too, but uh... little extreme?

Don't knock it until you try it.

Hive World = Trantor, from Asimov's Foundation saga. The Imperial capital that covers the surface of the planet.

Deathworlds - where the fauna AND flora are inimical to human life and colonists adapted to become better fighters (old enough to walk, old enough to learn how to shoot) came from Harry Harrison's 'Deathworld" novels (1-3, written pre-1987).

Homage is just French for Lobster.


No, wait, that's Homard. Homage is French for "rip off".