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Hmm everybody seems to have missed the Chronicles of Castle Brass by Micheal Moorcock with the Emperor of Gran Bretan on his technologically advanced throne and his armoured soldiers. Getting lost in the warp is probably based upon Joe Haldeman's Forever War. Both are highly recommended.

I could have sworn the Novel Armour was written in the seventies ; ah well anyway if anything read it it has way more to do with the feel of 40k than some of the novels themselves.


The books are all grim dark future and dudes in nuclear power armour fighting aliens.

The silliest thing about this entire argument is that people seem to be thinking that it's actually possible to create something without it having been influenced by things that came before it. You give me time and I'll show you how just about any game or book or movie was inspired by something that came before it. Games are an industry. It's about creativity but it's also about sellinbg product, it's much easier to sell things that are in some way familiar to your audience.

Yes 40k was influenced by Dune, some of the early designers have said as much. Star Wars was influenced by many movies and stories before it, it's overall package was unique but it's elements were not. Same thing with Rogue Trader, it was original in total but influenced largely by books more than movies because of when it was written, there simply weren't alot of good sci-fi movies to draw from. It has since pulled in influences from popular culture, sometimes with subtletly, often with a tongue in cheek wink wink.
Noone should argue that Sly Marbo is anything other than Rambo ported in. Kruellagh the Vile is a terrible homage to Cruella de Ville, but sometimes that's how it goes.

Since 2nd Edition Guard armies have been copies of or references to historical armies. Catachans are Vietnam era Americans, Praetorians are Zulu war era English, Valhallans are World War Two era Russians, etc. Are these rip-offs or did the designers draw inspiration from history?
Clearly they drew inspiration from history, but so have the designers of other games. Just some examples: Imperial Trenchers in Warzone are British World War One infantry, there are Highlanders in Infinity, Capitol Free Marines in Warzone were very similar to Catachans in being Vietnam era Americans. Since they came after Catachans were they a rip-off?

But for a moment consider other games, would White Wolf have ever published Vampire: The Masquerade before Anne Rice wrote Interview with a Vampire? I'd wager not, and while not set in her world it was certainly strongly influenced by it. Is it then a rip-off?

The Dark Angels were inspired by a poem 'Dark Angel' written by a Lionel Johnson. My god they even ripped-off poems, those bastards

just the mad ramblings of someone who was in high school when Rogue Trader came out.

Lanceradvanced wrote:

Bookwrack wrote:People like harping on 'oh, Dune Navigators and 40K Navigators!' despite the fact that since it's their job to 'navigate' the ship (in completely different ways) that's just about the most sensible name for them.

Despite my bashing on folks before over the -steer the ship- vs -move the ship- issues between the the Dune Movie and the Dune Novels, the Navigator thing is a reasonably solid homage at the least..

Just to go through point by point.. from the Novel, and RT

It's not just a job description, Navigators in both books are a -race- of human mutants, that have -no other existance- all they -ever- do is steer ships around.

The Navigational ability is psi based, though it differs modestly in nature (Guild Navigator are precogs, Imperial Navigators are clairvoyant), this is not a common trope in Sci fi, the only major case I can think of, being David Brin, where in the Uplift books with 5 diffrent levels of hyperspace, and psi turned up to 11, it makes the Warp seem tame at times (though you can get though hyperspace without psi, some alien alliances use psi's who warp reality as hyperdrives) EDIT, McCaffery's Pegasus books feature psi powered space travel as well, but it's more of the psi staying home, and telporting the ship in that case..

The physical mutations described are similar - spindly bodies, webbed hands and feet, I seem to have worn out my copy of Dune Messiah, or I'd be more explicit..

The major point of diffrence of course is that the Navigators in RT don't need the Spice, over time 40k has drifted away from the homage...

Just on one small point, there is -one little bit- of Dune, in this case, the movie, and not the book where the Saurdakar -do- resemble the Space Marines, in those brief shots in the intial and final battles, you see the imperial armored goons in action.

The Dune navigators resemble the old 40k navigators found in the vaults in Wolfblade. As they age they become less and less human, so yes there is a major similarity there. Big difference is the spice, I guess.

Make way, younguns ! Old fart coming through !

WARNING :
Years before even Rogue Trader, I was a player of a game called Traveller for which, under license, Citadel produced a range of 15mm figs (see here for examples : http://www.collecting-citadel-miniatures.com/wiki/index.php/Traveller_-_Collectors_Guide

One aspect of this RPG, was the possibility of a career path as a Marine (though more a space faring USMC than Adeptus Astartes.) The highest level of armour for a Traveller Imperial Marine (short of the legenday Personal Black Globe) was Battledress ( see here for a brief description : http://traveller.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_Dress) for which Citadel also produced miniatures (see first link).

Whilst perusing those miniatures, take note of the weapons, not so much the look as the names and the weapon types they imply.

An intermediary stage can be seen here : http://www.collecting-citadel-miniatures.com/wiki/index.php/Spacefarers_25mm, produced for the Spacefarers game, an early forerunner to RT, though I'm sure you can all see the Traveller design influences on the Power Armour figures.

Not too long later, Citadel started producing the first 28mm miniatures of Power Armour , many of which feature in the Original RT rulebook, the clearest being the photo of a rank of Marines in front of a very early Land raider.

Given the capabilities of the Traveller Battledress, and the weapons it allowed a player to use, GW simply "hyper evolved" the wearers to make the suits and wearers fit their own Space Marine agenda.

Space Marines nicked from Aliens USCMC ? Nope, afraid not.
Space Marines = Starship Troopers Grunts ? Sadly, no.

The Adeptus Astartes are, I'm both happy and sad to conclude, the result of GW thinking they could provide a better format of a system they were sub-contracted to reproduce in miniature for another company's gaming system.

Of course, that system also had rules for combat, but Traveller was ( and AFAIK still is, an RPG ) so I think it's also reasonable to assume that GW saw an opportunity to embark on a tabletop game using their own version of Battledress as one of their mainstays.

Of course, there is always the possibility that I'm wrong, and if Rick Priestley or his cohorts want to set me straight then I'm more than willing to stand corrected, but as a player of Traveller for about eight years before the spawning of RT, I am very familiar with the equipment.

ended, I now return you to your normal channels !

edited to include intermediate stage reference.

Thanks for the information. Checking out Traveller I noticed that it's under the GURPS name and license which I've just started to play. And this "Recently many people have noted the remarkable resemblance between the Traveller universe and the one shown in the TV series Firefly." makes me want to convince my gaming group to quit our current GURPS with the UN-in-space campaign and just play Traveller. Although we do get cyborgs in our game...hmm...

Does anyone else note the similarities between the Necron Tomb Spyder and that floaty thing that Flushes Neo in Matrix 1?

Beerforthebeergod wrote:
Thanks for the information. Checking out Traveller I noticed that it's under the GURPS name and license which I've just started to play. And this "Recently many people have noted the remarkable resemblance between the Traveller universe and the one shown in the TV series Firefly." makes me want to convince my gaming group to quit our current GURPS with the UN-in-space campaign and just play Traveller. Although we do get cyborgs in our game...hmm...

One of the best things for me about what is now called Classic Traveller was the ability as a GM to bring almost anything into the game, as long as you could generate a good enough design, stats and reason for it ( beyond the "I'm GM so I'm GOD excuse).
Want the Serenity (from Firefly) ? Draw up the deckplans, run through the Starship Design checklist, cost it up and away you go.
Want Cyborgs ? Find a high TL world, a mad doc, a nutty engineer and Bob's your mother's (half-robot) brother !
ANYTHING was possible with the right tools and experience as a GM, hell my buddies & I even dragged RT vehicles over by converting the stats in the RT rulebook ! ( In fact, IIRC one of them even had the weapons and bike from Judge Dredd as an excuse to use the Citadel JD minis !)

It's been over a decade since my last game tho, so I'm not quite sure where the franchise is at now !

Back on topic tho, as someone with personal experience to the Traveller "REALM", do you see the evolution of Astartes Power Armour from Battledress, or is it just the senile ravings of an aging gamer ?

@Crazy Carnifex : True, there is a similarity, but I suspect WH40K pre-dates even the conceptual draft of The Matrix. Indeed, it's possible that a pair of Mega-Geeks (and I mean no disrespect by that) like the W. Brothers could easily be 40K players.

"Back on topic tho, as someone with personal experience to the Traveller "REALM", do you see the evolution of Astartes Power Armour from Battledress, or is it just the senile ravings of an aging gamer ?"

To be honest I think everyone got the idea from Heinlein's Starship Troopers novel, who probably just got the idea from knights and samurai, etc and updated it. That's actually one of the main reasons I dislike the movie because it would've been so much better with power armored space marines.

Beerforthebeergod wrote:To be honest I think everyone got the idea from Heinlein's Starship Troopers novel...

Having not read the novel, I can neither confirm or refute this possibility.

My post was mainly to show the likelyhood that GW could have been expanding on the concept behind a mini range they were contracted to produce for another games system (albeit RPG) that already had something technically akin to Power Armour, as well as highlighting the possible evolution of the Power Armoured miniatures produced today.

It is indeed a very common maxim that there is very little originality left, only varieties of interpretation and expression, so in that sense 90% of stuff is copied from, or at the very least inspired by, something else, and not just by Games Workshop.

Returning to your original point, about the ST novel, I would like to ask two questions of those who HAVE read it :

1) Were the "Space Marine" forces (referred to in the film as the Mobile Infantry IIRC) genetically enhanced in any way ?
2) What, in 40K terms, was the STANDARD issue armour for those troops ?

Beerforthebeergod wrote:To be honest I think everyone got the idea from Heinlein's Starship Troopers novel

The idea predates Heinlein, though, the Lensmen series features a variety of space armors, usually mounting beam weapony, defensive shields against the same and inertialess drives, in the book "First Lensmen" various suits are described for use in specific envirments, an extra insuated and heated suit for pluto, and another purpose built suit for meeting with the Rigelians, who a) live under a hot blue sun, and b) have no concept of noise reduction, since they don't have a sense of hearing. In the next book the hero has a suit constructed for his solo assault on the Boskonian HQ, during the -testing- of which, he takes over 20k rounds from a heavy machine rifle without damage, before stopping when the rifle overheats...

1) Were the "Space Marine" forces (referred to in the film as the Mobile Infantry IIRC) genetically enhanced in any way ?
2) What, in 40K terms, was the STANDARD issue armour for those troops ?

1) No,
2) Terminator armor... In Individual Drop Pods... With Jumpacks.. and Obliterator Weapons, and Tac Nukes.. oh, and Grenades..If nothing else, read the first chapter...

1) Were the "Space Marine" forces (referred to in the film as the Mobile Infantry IIRC) genetically enhanced in any way ?
2) What, in 40K terms, was the STANDARD issue armour for those troops ?

Beerforthebeergod wrote:1) Were the "Space Marine" forces (referred to in the film as the Mobile Infantry IIRC) genetically enhanced in any way ?
2) What, in 40K terms, was the STANDARD issue armour for those troops ?

In answer to the first, I haven't read the novel in awhile but I do not believe they were genetically manipulated. The standard armor was a powered exoskeleton that while not as big as SM armor provided the same function.

BrotherStynier wrote:

Beerforthebeergod wrote:1) Were the "Space Marine" forces (referred to in the film as the Mobile Infantry IIRC) genetically enhanced in any way ?
2) What, in 40K terms, was the STANDARD issue armour for those troops ?

In answer to the first, I haven't read the novel in awhile but I do not believe they were genetically manipulated. The standard armor was a powered exoskeleton that while not as big as SM armor provided the same function.

1) No, in the film they were just recruits, in the book they went through several years of Training IIRC, but still had no enhancements
2) Flak Armour, the grunts in those movies are just your average guardsmen.

I believe the Power Armour in the book was actually bigger, it had big missile racks and two flamerthrowers, jump jets and could enter atmospheres with out drop pods.

Oh okay got confused is all.

Dark Angels are based off this gay poet!

nickt2245 wrote:Dark Angels are based off this gay poet!

/facepalm

generalgrog wrote:
9: The term Nurgle- "Borrowed" from the Elric Saga

Nurgle comes from Nurgal, the Babylonian god of both pestilence and war.