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Madgod wrote:And stop knocking Thousand Sons.They are great at what they do i.e. slaughtering MEQs and not needing cover. Plus they can actually move and fire at long range.

Sure, but when a full squad is bordering on 300 points? (If not more, can't remember if it's 24ppm with sorc or without sorc).

That is a gakload of points to spend if all you're really doing is forcing 7 4+ cover saves against T4.

So for my first post.

Stop hating the Thousand Sons.....

ok they are a total niche unit, but when you have 3 Vindicators facing you, there is no cover. There is only a bait unit with 2 HQs and 4+ Invul saves, that just doesnt die.....

Any time my enemy decided to shoot something else it went pop. Yes it was the fault of my Obliterators, that just decided that killing tanks is kinda not their thing that day.

So yeah Thousand Sons i will prolly NOT play against that enemy, but that one game they saved my ass. Oh and a unit of 16 guys with the cheapest psionic power was 415 points..... luckily well spent.

And possessed have great models, but the worst rule of the codex. Even worse than the Dreadnought. I own 2, both have Havoc launchers......I hate GW for killing them :S. (And the "fixed" frenzy rules)

Foda_Bett wrote:
The CSM codex lacks proper progression. A terminator champion has as many attacks as a chaos lord. Abaddon, WITH the mark of Khorne, has as many attacks as a lord with bp/ccw, or a khorne lord, base. And the same as a daemon prince? Wait, a daemon prince has as many attacks as Colonel Straken? Straken is S6 just like a DP with as many attacks, and is in a squad so has LOTS of ablative wounds to soak fire. He also has furious charge, meaning on the charge he's actually S7, and still gets 2d6 armour pen. He's BETTER than a daemon prince. Why is that?

So straken is eternal warrior, has cool psykic powers, wear power armour, has wings and T3.

Foda_Bett wrote:
This leaves us the option of taking what.... havocs? Welcome to 5th edition, you need to keep moving thanks and everything's in cover. Want to save points and kill light tanks well with autocannons? Guess what. A squad of 15 lootas rolling a 1 for number of shots gets statistically the same number of hits as you, for fewer points. Except they're fearless for a while and when in cover just as hard to kill as your guys.

Unit of havocs armed with flamers say: "cover never heard of it"

Foda_Bett wrote:
Fearless? What's THAT? Only cult troops are fearless which is fine and all, but there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY to MAKE squads fearless, by either buff, special rule, or character. In fact they HURT your characters by REMOVING fearlessness, which is just wrong. Again talking about characters, marine characters get all kinds of rerolls and special abilities like orbital bombardment or making bike squads troops. Chaos has NO rerolls for chaos lords WHATsoever. Marines dish out 3+ invul saves like candy, and even guard commanders have 5+ invul saves, making chaos getting them for free quite cheap by comparison. For a while we had the edge on marine characters by being WS6, but they gave that to the marine characters IN ADDITION to everything else.

You just forgot Fabius

Foda_Bett wrote:
Chaos lacks any unit that's truly amazing. Terminators can run away. Possessed are TOTALLY random and only good if they get power weapons. Chosen do their job, but that's all that can be expected from them, and they pay too much to do it. Chosen feel pretty good being able to outflank, though.....too bad Kor'sarro Khan can make his entire ARMY do it.

Don't you lose if you have no models on table.

Your post was plain, boring and unfluffy

illuknisaa wrote:


So straken is eternal warrior, has cool psykic powers, wear power armour, has wings and T3.

He's not T3, but he can ride in a transport [moves as fast as wings], has cool orders, and yes he's immune to instant death in the form of "you MUST kill all these guardsmen before you can allocate attacks to me. By the way, when any guardsman near me charges he's as good as a space marine."

illuknisaa wrote:

Unit of havocs armed with flamers say: "cover never heard of it"

Yay? An IG command squad with 4 flamers has EXACTLY the same offensive potential for FAR less. Just less survivability, which matters little when A) you have killed everything that could hurt you and/or B) with the points you saved you went and bought another unit to either finish off the survivors or hold the objective instead of the unit about to die. Or hey, spend it on a chimera, which has more armor to the front, more powerful weaponry than a rhino, and FIVE models can shoot from the top. So hey, they don't even need to get out to use every flamer in the unit! So I take it back, in a way they're even more survivable than the havocs, as they can use their full offensive potential from the safety of their transport [which also has a heavy flamer].

illuknisaa wrote:

You just forgot Fabius

You're right, I did. Intentionally. Fabius is a terrible character. And that doesn't mean your units are fearless. Fabius doesn't make units fearless, like a good commander or a nice army special rule should. Fabius allows you to BUY fearless for a lot of points. lo and behold, after buying the upgrade the regular troops approach the cost of cult marines! Imagine.

illuknisaa wrote:

Don't you lose if you have no models on table.

What are you talking about? Are you saying you lose if you choose to outflank everything? Nooo, not at all. Anyone can opt to start the game with every single unit in reserves if they want to. In the case of Khan every one of those units can just outflank instead. For essentially free. Khan's point cost is only slightly higher than his special rules [like adding furious charge and hit and run] and combat ability [relic blade with instant death on a 6] would suggest, so the chapter tactics bit is really just icing on the cake.

Spellbound wrote:

illuknisaa wrote:


So straken is eternal warrior, has cool psykic powers, wear power armour, has wings and T3.

He's not T3, but he can ride in a transport [moves as fast as wings], has cool orders, and yes he's immune to instant death in the form of "you MUST kill all these guardsmen before you can allocate attacks to me. By the way, when any guardsman near me charges he's as good as a space marine."

illuknisaa wrote:

Unit of havocs armed with flamers say: "cover never heard of it"

Yay? An IG command squad with 4 flamers has EXACTLY the same offensive potential for FAR less. Just less survivability, which matters little when A) you have killed everything that could hurt you and/or B) with the points you saved you went and bought another unit to either finish off the survivors or hold the objective instead of the unit about to die. Or hey, spend it on a chimera, which has more armor to the front, more powerful weaponry than a rhino, and FIVE models can shoot from the top. So hey, they don't even need to get out to use every flamer in the unit! So I take it back, in a way they're even more survivable than the havocs, as they can use their full offensive potential from the safety of their transport [which also has a heavy flamer].

illuknisaa wrote:

First of all this was csm versus sm thread and I don't think IG command squad has the same potential. If we put IG command squad and havocs face to face so both can shoot with their flamers at the same time, results would we got a pile of dead ig and maybe one csm dead. Also I don't think it's wise to put IG command squad front of an army.

Khan can't make everything outflank, but he can make LR with th/ss termies in them out flanking. But, it seems to slightly depend on how you play and what you verse so much. The predicted meta game might make chaos look crap, but he could be usually against stuff that chaos can go fine against. But, if SM have the right list they can beat the CSM. However, that is also true for all armies really. SM being GW main army just has a bunch of "oh look this guy is good (Calgar if you've read the codex's stories* ), go buy this guy nao!" stuff.


*Shortened version of SM story for those who don't want to read the Calgar ad in the codex

illuknisaa wrote:
First of all this was csm versus sm thread and I don't think IG command squad has the same potential. If we put IG command squad and havocs face to face so both can shoot with their flamers at the same time, results would we got a pile of dead ig and maybe one csm dead. Also I don't think it's wise to put IG command squad front of an army.

4 flamers hitting 5 guardsmen. 20 hits, 14 wounds, guardsmen are dead.

4 flamers hitting 5 marines. 20 hits, 10 wounds, 3 are dead, make a morale test.

Points cost? Do the math.

Not to mention the command squad can be a scoring unit, the havocs can't.

CSM may be cool but atleast regular marines dont poke you and give holes in your fingers whenever you pick them up.

Why play regular marines instead of Chaos marines?
Because spikes, skulls and "We have hated for 10.000 years" doesn't get everybody all hot and bothered.

Personally it just doesn't appeal to me.

I can understand not wanting to play CSM (infact, I encourage it to have more variety for myself)

However, I cant understand why anyone would play Space Marines. They are the most generic, boring, and uninteresting army out there. I guess if you dont understand the game and need simplicity, or you suck at painting, or you just like being a sheep and following what everyone else does, SMs would be perfect for you. There is nothing unique about collecting them, and it just adds onto the pile of lame players to play against.


They arnt even "good". They are just less evil than CSMs. Their version of "honour" is not respectable and not something our world can connect to. The only trait I like about them is their loyalty to one another ("Brothers").


Whatever, SM players are going to reply to this (because as we all know, 80%+ of us play them) with some BS about how theyre not any of the above, and I will just hear "baaaaa".

If this came off as a flame, i apologize, but thats how much Ive grown tired of the lame SMs

quit living in the past!

I won't deny the majority of those claims, except the one about painting.

The space marine as a model is good for a simple painter - it's easy, there isn't that much detail, and what there is you can handle by using a very fine-tip pen and outlining their armour.

BUT, for the skilled painter, they can do some AMAZING things with space marines, and with some skilled modelling work converting their poses, adding details and bits like purity seals and hand-written scrolls and things like that, they can be one of the most beautiful armies out there. I think it takes more skill to have a really really good looking space marine army than, say, a tyranid army.

Sadly, I've seen the "lame marines" mentality actually affect painting scores. At the Big Waaagh! this year there was a beautifully painted army with murals and designs and weathering on all the tanks. Looked absolutely gorgeous, but someone took one look at the army and said "oh, space marines." and walked away without even taking a moment to appreciate the work. That's sad honestly.

Night Lords wrote:I can understand not wanting to play CSM (infact, I encourage it to have more variety for myself)

However, I cant understand why anyone would play Space Marines. They are the most generic, boring, and uninteresting army out there. I guess if you dont understand the game and need simplicity, or you suck at painting, or you just like being a sheep and following what everyone else does, SMs would be perfect for you. There is nothing unique about collecting them, and it just adds onto the pile of lame players to play against.


They arnt even "good". They are just less evil than CSMs. Their version of "honour" is not respectable and not something our world can connect to. The only trait I like about them is their loyalty to one another ("Brothers").


Whatever, SM players are going to reply to this (because as we all know, 80%+ of us play them) with some BS about how theyre not any of the above, and I will just hear "baaaaa".

If this came off as a flame, i apologize, but thats how much Ive grown tired of the lame SMs

It doesn't come off as a flame, it is a flame.

" I guess if you dont understand the game and need simplicity, or you suck at painting, or you just like being a sheep and following what everyone else does, SMs would be perfect for you."

1/10.

Both armies are near each other in terms of playability. Both sides bitch about the other because rarely does anyone play both armies. Lash ISN'T that good anymore, everyone is mech. Loyalists have "broken" termis, guns, a power better than fearless, and SCs that are better than a Greater Daemon; Chaos has "broken" MCs, Psyker powers, (over-priced) cult troops, and Oblitz. If your army can't stand up to Assaulting or Shooting, then something is wrong with it. You can't ignore phases of the game and expect to win.

Both armies are playable, shut up everyone forever.

garret wrote:CSM may be cool but atleast regular marines dont poke you and give holes in your fingers whenever you pick them up.

QFT! Ouch!

whitedragon wrote:

garret wrote:CSM may be cool but atleast regular marines dont poke you and give holes in your fingers whenever you pick them up.

QFT! Ouch!

I've been painting my brother's CSM's for a month now and I'm seriously considering wearing gloves while I'm painting them!

Amazingly my CSM don't have the spike problem, cuz it makes them impossible to transport. I prefer to emphasize the helmet horns instead.

Because Games Workshop Mass markets the marines an Starter sets to know end. (Who cares if chaos is cooler? Get Marines! They're in our new set with a crappy commander!)

Little lord Fauntleroy wrote:Because Games Workshop Mass markets the marines an Starter sets to know end. (Who cares if chaos is cooler? Get Marines! They're in our new set with a crappy commander!)

Aw shucks, you're just jealous that we get over a hundred dollars in minis for $37.50.

...Yeah, I am =)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
...Yeah, I am

I think when you boil it all down it comes to this
Who's Primarchs are still alive and active (not in a coma) and that would be chaos
Now dont get me wrong i play marines and chaos and dark mechanicus and i love marine rules and the conversion beamer rocks
but marines are still so very very bland and i find chaos has more character but then again if you like everyone looking the same and fighting for the same cause all the time just because a old man in a solid gold wheel chair told you to then be my guest and play marines
SW and BT are different but that's a whole nother story

Horus is alive? I've always thought it was odd that CSM believe the emperor is dead, yet one of their cries is"Death to the false emperor!"

oddjustice wrote:

Little lord Fauntleroy wrote:Because Games Workshop Mass markets the marines an Starter sets to know end. (Who cares if chaos is cooler? Get Marines! They're in our new set with a crappy commander!)

Aw shucks, you're just jealous that we get over a hundred dollars in minis for $37.50.

Uhm...they are easily turned to Chaos. Mix and match with orks for mutations and even more, like possessed, demons, oblits and you could probably do a nifty Demon Prince or GD conversion using the warboss.

whitedragon wrote:

oddjustice wrote:

Little lord Fauntleroy wrote:Because Games Workshop Mass markets the marines an Starter sets to know end. (Who cares if chaos is cooler? Get Marines! They're in our new set with a crappy commander!)

Aw shucks, you're just jealous that we get over a hundred dollars in minis for $37.50.

Uhm...they are easily turned to Chaos. Mix and match with orks for mutations and even more, like possessed, demons, oblits and you could probably do a nifty Demon Prince or GD conversion using the warboss.

Sure. Or I could just shave the mold lines off of them, paint them, and use them in my marine army.

oddjustice wrote:

Night Lords wrote:I can understand not wanting to play CSM (infact, I encourage it to have more variety for myself)

However, I cant understand why anyone would play Space Marines. They are the most generic, boring, and uninteresting army out there. I guess if you dont understand the game and need simplicity, or you suck at painting, or you just like being a sheep and following what everyone else does, SMs would be perfect for you. There is nothing unique about collecting them, and it just adds onto the pile of lame players to play against.


They arnt even "good". They are just less evil than CSMs. Their version of "honour" is not respectable and not something our world can connect to. The only trait I like about them is their loyalty to one another ("Brothers").


Whatever, SM players are going to reply to this (because as we all know, 80%+ of us play them) with some BS about how theyre not any of the above, and I will just hear "baaaaa".

If this came off as a flame, i apologize, but thats how much Ive grown tired of the lame SMs

It doesn't come off as a flame, it is a flame.

" I guess if you dont understand the game and need simplicity, or you suck at painting, or you just like being a sheep and following what everyone else does, SMs would be perfect for you."

1/10.

Response QTF, original post for context.

I know that it's really weird to think of it this way, but did you know that you can actually give your marines a back story? And you can model them differently? And that you can choose to take units that are effective and exlude other units that are also effective and still have a good build that matches your backstory?

Yes, the CSM have their eternal jealous quest for power. But look where that's lead them! Eternal residence in the ghetto of the galaxy known as the Eye of Terror... yaaaaay. Or they're pirates or they've made some name for themselves on some backwater planet where they've made sure that they aren't noticeable to illicit the attention of the Imperium.... yaaaaaaaaaaaaaay x 2!

Also, considering that the great revolution that lead to the emperor becoming a vegetable (It also killed your main primarch too, in case you forgot) was all caused because "daddy doesn't love me!" I think that having Carbon copies of Vin Diesel running around pumped up on steroids with an actual objective is quite a nice difference.

Shrike78 wrote:

oddjustice wrote:

Night Lords wrote:I can understand not wanting to play CSM (infact, I encourage it to have more variety for myself)

However, I cant understand why anyone would play Space Marines. They are the most generic, boring, and uninteresting army out there. I guess if you dont understand the game and need simplicity, or you suck at painting, or you just like being a sheep and following what everyone else does, SMs would be perfect for you. There is nothing unique about collecting them, and it just adds onto the pile of lame players to play against.


They arnt even "good". They are just less evil than CSMs. Their version of "honour" is not respectable and not something our world can connect to. The only trait I like about them is their loyalty to one another ("Brothers").


Whatever, SM players are going to reply to this (because as we all know, 80%+ of us play them) with some BS about how theyre not any of the above, and I will just hear "baaaaa".

If this came off as a flame, i apologize, but thats how much Ive grown tired of the lame SMs

It doesn't come off as a flame, it is a flame.

" I guess if you dont understand the game and need simplicity, or you suck at painting, or you just like being a sheep and following what everyone else does, SMs would be perfect for you."

1/10.

Response QTF, original post for context.

Dont cry little space marine players. It's okay to be a sheep

Yeah you can totally create a backstory, and tailor your army using flavorful characters with unique abilities that change the army to match your cool backstory!

Meanwhile chaos can make a cool backstory and.....well, they can kinda just look at it and think "man I'm a good story writer, I sure wish I could bring extra fast attack choices, raptors as troops, bikes as troops, 6 dreadnoughts, affect my reserves rolls in any way, outflank my army, give my basic squads veteran skills, improve the BS of my devastators, bring 4 heavy support choices, or use oblits without taking heavy support slots"

Codex: Chaos Legions please, after necrons and SW and nids and codex: Imperium.....that's a long way. Hey, since it's so far off just write a new chaos codex altogether! Wooo!