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I'v always wondered why people play with space marines while csm are better, cheaper and ALOT cooler. The sm codex gives sm ability to be able run away well (??) and gives some free guns but while sm get these kinda cool things the csm get all the guns, marks, extra attacks and spikes.

Different styles of play and preferences.
Much better armor.
Dreadnoughts that work.
Whirlwinds.
Land raider crusaders.

The terminators are better. th/ss and cyclone missle launchers ftw.

Multimeltas.

Fast attack slots that are actually usable...

Well, here are a few reasons right off the bat:

1 - Drop Pods... nothing like being able to deploy your entire army (if you choose) after your opponent does and anywhere on the board

2 - Vehicles: SMs get Land Speeders, Razorbacks, multiple Land Raider variants (with better rules than CSM Land raiders), and Whirlwinds, all unavailable to CSM

3 - Elites: SM gets some of the best Elite units in the game...Sternguard, Ironclad Dreads, TH/SS Terminators all are some of the best units out there and arguably better than the CSM Elites options

4 - Characters: While CSM generally have better CC heroes, SM HQs give some of the best "support" options to any army. Librarians with Null Zone, GoI, and Force Dome are very potent; Chaplains make SMs assault units equal to the best in the game; unique Characters like Shrike (Fleet), Khan (Outflank), Pedro Kantor (+1 A within 12" and Stubborn), and Vulkan (TL-ed flamer/melta and MC-ed THs) do for SM forces what the different Marks of Chaos do for their troops (i.e. provide unique but powerful abilities that can affect the whole army).

5 - Solid, economical Troop choices: Tac Squads in Rhinos or Scout Snipers, while not spectacularly powerful or elite like CSM cult troops, are cheap, rugged, and versatile and can do what Troop choices need to do very well (i.e. score, provide back-up for units, provide bodies to absorb enemy attacks).

Finally, most important, is the ability to develop versatile play-styles/tactics. While other armies are pretty "pidgeon-holed" into a certain style (i.e. IG and Tau, shooty; CSM, Nids, Orks, assault; etc.) SMs are one of the best, second probably only to Eldar, at being able to mix shooting, mobility, and CC in a single list.

The strength of the Chaos list is its troops. Very strong basic CSM, cult troops to fit different roles and styles.

And, of course, Lash of Submission.

The strength of Marine lists, conversely, is generally all the other slots. Troops are decent shooting platforms, although generally not incredible in the assault, but their Fast, Heavy, and Elite slots are very diverse and easily tailored to a variety of play styles.

If you want a pure rhino rush Man-pile type list, I'd run Chaos Marines. If you want ... anything else, Marines can probably do it better or in a meaningfully different way.

Here some coolness of sm:
In my last match I played enemy scouts shooted 4 of my khorne berzerkers (that was combined fire of 15 which also included sniper rifles, bolters and missile launcher). Then kb assaulted and only 3 kb was left and a ton of corpses.

Also earlier when the enemy lauched his drop pod assault right on my nose. The assault included 5 sternguard and a captain which were instantly killed by mine amazing basic csm with bolt pistols and chainswords and the worst of csm fast attack, the spawn cutting down captain who couldn't even hit the big plob of flesh.

I won the match with 5 kill points and enemy had none. And that was just 3 rounds because the enemy "had to" leave.

CHAOS PREVAILS!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCAjmuA1HDk&feature=related

illuknisaa wrote:I'v always wondered why people play with space marines while csm are better, cheaper and ALOT cooler. The sm codex gives sm ability to be able run away well (??) and gives some free guns but while sm get these kinda cool things the csm get all the guns, marks, extra attacks and spikes.

Well, the ability to run away is quite useful.

In an RTT, my 5 Termie squad got targeted by Wyches.
They shot two blasters and two Termies died.
Then the Termies decided to fall back volunteerly.
The Wyches were left in the open in front of my army.
Hello Wyches.

wuestenfux wrote:

illuknisaa wrote:I'v always wondered why people play with space marines while csm are better, cheaper and ALOT cooler. The sm codex gives sm ability to be able run away well (??) and gives some free guns but while sm get these kinda cool things the csm get all the guns, marks, extra attacks and spikes.

Well, the ability to run away is quite useful.

In an RTT, my 5 Termie squad got targeted by Wyches.
They shot two blasters and two Termies died.
Then the Termies decided to fall back volunteerly.
The Wyches were left in the open in front of my army.
Hello Wyches.

You should read the chapter in p.132 about sm
The fluff is conflict with the rules of sm

On the other hand csm chapter hits right in the head. "Deadly warriors, ...motivated by greed, ...doom of Mankind.

Sorry illuknisaa, but I must say...

BURN THE HERETIC!!!!!!!

and...

DIE CHAOS SCUM!!!!!!

Anyway, I think some people are swayed by the fact that GW always pushes SM's on everybody, but also because Land Raider Redeemers/Crusaders are just totally awesome

I have always wondered why CSM dont have at least some of the cool things that SM have like whirlwind, landspeeders, LR crusader.


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I have always wondered why CSM dont have at least some of the cool things that SM have like whirlwind, landspeeders, LR crusader.

They were not around during the Horus Heresy and Chaos mostly uses stuff that is really old. Thats the reason I think.

Inigo Montoya wrote:Dreadnoughts that work.

LOL

Anyway, Space Marines are just a different preference. In addition, there are a lot of non-codex chapters like the Black Templars who are not like the Ultramarines.

augfubuoy wrote:Sorry illuknisaa, but I must say...

BURN THE HERETIC!!!!!!!

and...

DIE CHAOS SCUM!!!!!!

Anyway, I think some people are swayed by the fact that GW always pushes SM's on everybody, but also because Land Raider Redeemers/Crusaders are just totally awesome

Thats what I'm doing, burning the heretics and killing the false emperor

Vindicator#9 wrote:I have always wondered why CSM dont have at least some of the cool things that SM have like whirlwind, landspeeders, LR crusader.


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I have always wondered why CSM dont have at least some of the cool things that SM have like whirlwind, landspeeders, LR crusader.

Whirlwind isn't cooler than defiler, landspeeders get killed by boltpistols, who need crusader when you got deamonic LR with tantacles.

Hollismason wrote:They were not around during the Horus Heresy and Chaos mostly uses stuff that is really old. Thats the reason I think.

I don't think it takes genious to add bolters to LR instead lascannons, chaos just doesn't want to use junk.

Here's one for you. The Chaos Marine codex was terribly designed so that virtually only one type of list could work well. Also, the cool legions, like Iron Warriors, Night Lords, and Word Bearers aren't even given there own special rules in the codex. It's a disgrace.

And the list is?


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Exarch_Nektel wrote:Also, the cool legions, like Iron Warriors, Night Lords, and Word Bearers aren't even given there own special rules in the codex. It's a disgrace.

Neither do eldar (what a disgrace), tau, tyranids, orks, necrons...

Nids do not get special legions because in there fluff they are a horde, not various sub factions.

The One Build people reffer to for chaos is Lash Prince+Oblits with Plague marines for scoreing.

The One List to rule them all, and in the Darkness bind them...

I'd put it more like: "One list to find them all, one list to blind them, one list to rule them all, and in the forums bore them."

The reason people run SM is because they are far more versatile than CSM. That and Land raiders are the best tank in the game, and having options as to how to equip them is only available to SM.

Chaos Space Marines have plenty of options for equipping Chaos Land Raiders, particularly the two levels of protection (Extra Armour and Daemonic Possession), five types of pintle-mounted weaponry, and an interesting doo-dad in the form of the Dirge Caster.

I don't think it's a question of versatility, given that they are two distinct army lists, but a question of how you want to play. Chaos Marines favour high risk high payoff strategies, while Space Marines are more reliable but don't have the potential to hit as hard.

Chaos has
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!!
SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!!!
One of their 4 gods nearly wiped out the entire eldar race in one swift blow.

Loyalists have the zombie god sitting on the golden toilet, all it's missing is the newspaper.

Elnicko5 wrote:The reason people run SM is because they are far more versatile than CSM. That and Land raiders are the best tank in the game, and having options as to how to equip them is only available to SM.

Chaos also gets LR as dedicated transport and SM don't (atleast I think so). There is nothing sweeter than deamonically posessed wall of AV14 and inside them Khorne berzerkers and lightning claw termies ready to rumble.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUslGSoEH8I

illuknisaa wrote:And the list is?


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Exarch_Nektel wrote:Also, the cool legions, like Iron Warriors, Night Lords, and Word Bearers aren't even given there own special rules in the codex. It's a disgrace.

Neither do eldar (what a disgrace), tau, tyranids, orks, necrons...

The Eldar have five main factions, or craftworlds.

Just like the World eaters, T-Sons, Emperor's children, and Death Guard all have their own special unit in Codex Chaos, so do each of the craftworlds.

tau and tyranids don't have divisions like Chaos, SM, and Eldar do.

Nurglitch wrote:Space Marines are more reliable but don't have the potential to hit as hard.

I think there are some MC TH/SS terminators who would disagree

"landspeeders get killed by boltpistols"


Wrong,that was 4th ed.

In 5th it takes a S 5 to have a slim chance of penning.

That's something I don't get. You can actually destroy vehicles with cumulative glancing hits in 5th edition. All you have to do is destroy all of a vehicle's weapons, and immobilize it, and the next Damage result is converted to Destroyed.

Landspeeders can be destroyed by Bolt Pistols if they get Immobilized while moving Flat Out or while they're part of a squadron.

Nurglitch wrote:That's something I don't get. You can actually destroy vehicles with cumulative glancing hits in 5th edition. All you have to do is destroy all of a vehicle's weapons, and immobilize it, and the next Damage result is converted to Destroyed.

Landspeeders can be destroyed by Bolt Pistols if they get Immobilized while moving Flat Out or while they're part of a squadron.

Yes,but the chances that someones going to be dumb enough to waste there assault troops potential by shooting a speeder is laughable not to mention the chances of it happening ,also iirc moving flat out gives you a 4+ cover save .

That's correct, skimmers can't be destroyed by being immobilized after moving Flat Out, only if they become immobilized during their movement. If they're part of a squadron, however, they become immediately destroyed.

And yes, fast skimmers do get 4+ cover if they move more than 12".

So odds of S4 killing an AV10 vehicle in a squadron while it's boosting is about 1/72 results per hit.

Glance with a 6, Immobilize with a 6, and your opponent rolls 3 or less on their cover save.

Truly terrible odds, and obviously a tactic of desperation.

If I hadn't made the shot with bolt pistol aka tankhunter, I would have a multimelted vindicator. I take any odds I can get and thats what gets me the winning edge.


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jmurph wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:Space Marines are more reliable but don't have the potential to hit as hard.

I think there are some MC TH/SS terminators who would disagree

I don't care my MoS termies take any other termie as breakfast.

First things first: This is Spellbound posting on Fodabett's computer, so if you think "hey, I've heard these arguments before" then you probably have.

Illuknisaa, allow me to enlighten you as to exactly WHY someone would choose regular marines over CSM.

First of all, ANYONE who likes fluff will want SM over CSM. SM armies can pick options that actually go with the fluff of their army and be effective. Ultramarines can take Marneus Calgar and have an army that works in concert and uses tactics to make properly timed retreats to avoid uselessly wasting precious lives. Calgar is a beast in CC and in shooting. He's easily a match for Abaddon, can KILL Abaddon by SHOOTING him with his AP2 stormbolter that rerolls wounds, and buffs his whole army [does Abaddon do that?].

You want Ravenguard? How about an army of fleeting terminators. Tired of your terminators running away? Join a chaplain to them and make them extra deadly on the charge and fearless. Lash of Submission giving you problems? Take a Librarian and use your psychic hood. You like salamanders? How about a whole army of units that are great at popping tanks, backed up by units great at roasting infantry with flame throwers?

Let's compare characters. Abaddon to Calgar. Abaddon could stab himself in the face, and if he joins his terminator bodyguard that he's ALWAYS seen with in the fluff, he loses fearlessness and could run away with the squad if beaten in combat. Typhus will NEVER stand against a character like Calgar or Lysander in combat, both of which are incredibly deadly. Lysander can join a squad of sternguard veterans and have them re-roll their misses with their special ammunition - in particilar the AP3 "gets hot" rounds, increasing damage and survivability. Ahriman is the greatest sorceror that ever lived? How come he doesn't know all the chaos psychic powers? How come Tigurius DOES know all the SM ones, and BOTH can cast three a turn, yet Tigurius has BETTER spells that buff his army, penalize the enemy, do as good or better a job of doing damage, and includes special rules for reserves as well?

Lucius is a complete scrub with no abilities to grant his army and doesn't even have a daemon weapon. Compare him to someone like Pedro or Khan and he's completely outclassed, not even considering things like Pedro giving extra attacks and scoring sternguard, and Khan giving Outflank, hit and run, AND furious charge to some units. Huron Blackheart can be compared to Vulkan He'stan - except that for only 20 points more Vulkan gets a way better invul save, better armour, master-crafted heavy flamer, a stronger power weapon [that's master crafted], re-roll a failed to wound roll, and buffs his entire army immensely. Huron gets Warp Time. Big deal. 20 points for all that eh?


The CSM army does one thing and one thing only well: Be generic. It's very easy to have every unit be good at multiple things. CSM can use meltaguns on tanks and bolters on enemy infantry. CSM tanks can take combi-weapons to make them each into a tank killer or horde messer-upper. Obliterators can pop tanks, hose infantry or assault fairly well. Combi-weapon terminators can perform a variety of roles while taking a variety of close combat weapons, too.

What chaos lacks is anything special and unique besides lash. Our characters are sub-par compared to anyone else, and most of our units are the same. Compare Sternguard to 1ksons and the 1ksons fail in close combat and versatility, completely lacking much in tank-killing power and gaining only a 4+ invul save, which the sternguard can get in cover to get themselves. Sternguard have 2 attacks base, while chosen have 1. Possessed have 2 base, but only take a single stick to combat, same with daemon princes.

Let's compare points costs. The chaos vindicator comes with a dozerblade. The space marine vindicator costs 10 points less, but comes with a stormbolter as standard. It can buy a dozerblade, but ends up still 5 points cheaper than the chaos tank. Why? No reason. Let's do more comparisons. Marine landraider carries 2 extra models and gets a machine spirit for 30 points more than a chaos landraider. It can also add a multi-melta, which chaos cannot. Let's not even talk about the variants of the landraider, which chaos can't even touch. And for the record yes, chaos can have dedicated landraiders - but you still pay the points for them and they still count for KP, so what's different? Take a landraider and 3 heavy support? Got news for you, marines can too. Marines can have ONE landraider act as a dedicated transport for terminators, getting the same advantage we have! And if you want to bring 2 LR and 3 HS still, then that's one HUGE game.

The CSM codex lacks proper progression. A terminator champion has as many attacks as a chaos lord. Abaddon, WITH the mark of Khorne, has as many attacks as a lord with bp/ccw, or a khorne lord, base. And the same as a daemon prince? Wait, a daemon prince has as many attacks as Colonel Straken? Straken is S6 just like a DP with as many attacks, and is in a squad so has LOTS of ablative wounds to soak fire. He also has furious charge, meaning on the charge he's actually S7, and still gets 2d6 armour pen. He's BETTER than a daemon prince. Why is that?

Marine bikers cost 10 points less than chaos bikers. Chaos raptors have NO special rules, and can't even take meltabombs except on the champion. Marines get deepstrike-and-assault vanguards.

It's nigh impossible for chaos to make a fluffy list and stay competitive. Most lists require lash to work, Noisemarines and 1ksons can't pop tanks, but plaguemarines aren't fluffy for a slaanesh-led army and to some degree neither are CSM. Obliterators aren't supposed to be a dime a dozen yet it's hard really to pick them over some other choices. Dreadnoughts can't be equipped with anti-tank weaponry....ok they CAN, but you risk a lot doing that as they can kill your own troops. Geared for close combat, they're likely to slow themselves down trying to get to combat before making it there. When they do, they'll be I1 if the enemy is in cover. Compare this to the ironclad dreadnought, which gets guns better at killing tanks [meltaguns], offensive [AND defensive?] grenades and better armour, which makes all the difference in the WORLD in close combat.

This leaves us the option of taking what.... havocs? Welcome to 5th edition, you need to keep moving thanks and everything's in cover. Want to save points and kill light tanks well with autocannons? Guess what. A squad of 15 lootas rolling a 1 for number of shots gets statistically the same number of hits as you, for fewer points. Except they're fearless for a while and when in cover just as hard to kill as your guys.

Fearless? What's THAT? Only cult troops are fearless which is fine and all, but there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY to MAKE squads fearless, by either buff, special rule, or character. In fact they HURT your characters by REMOVING fearlessness, which is just wrong. Again talking about characters, marine characters get all kinds of rerolls and special abilities like orbital bombardment or making bike squads troops. Chaos has NO rerolls for chaos lords WHATsoever. Marines dish out 3+ invul saves like candy, and even guard commanders have 5+ invul saves, making chaos getting them for free quite cheap by comparison. For a while we had the edge on marine characters by being WS6, but they gave that to the marine characters IN ADDITION to everything else.

Chaos lacks any unit that's truly amazing. Terminators can run away. Possessed are TOTALLY random and only good if they get power weapons. Chosen do their job, but that's all that can be expected from them, and they pay too much to do it. Chosen feel pretty good being able to outflank, though.....too bad Kor'sarro Khan can make his entire ARMY do it.

And that's pretty much it. Chaos has only one HQ choice, MAYBE 2: Lash Prince, and Warptime Nurgle prince. Troops? You're going to want plaguemarines for meltaguns and survivability, or in my case just regular CSM to use their guns.

And despite it all, none of that is SPECIAL except lash. Everything else is plain, boring, unfluffy, or all three.

And THAT is why someone might choose regular marines over chaos space marines.

-Spellbound

Ahhh, but regular marines were nothing compared to the grand old CSM.....

Damn fine list, damn fine.

New codex is full o' crap.