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illuknisaa wrote:Here some coolness of sm:
In my last match I played enemy scouts shooted 4 of my khorne berzerkers (that was combined fire of 15 which also included sniper rifles, bolters and missile launcher). Then kb assaulted and only 3 kb was left and a ton of corpses.

Also earlier when the enemy lauched his drop pod assault right on my nose. The assault included 5 sternguard and a captain which were instantly killed by mine amazing basic csm with bolt pistols and chainswords and the worst of csm fast attack, the spawn cutting down captain who couldn't even hit the big plob of flesh.

If he's stupid enough to drop just 5 sternguard on the nose of cc Chaos, he deserves to lose. The way to do that properly would be to drop 10 sternguard with two heavy flamers in the squad onto you, with lysander in the pod with them (yes he can fit because he takes up two slots and the drop pod has 12) and Vulkan elsewhere to make the heavy flamers twin linked if you're feeling extra nasty.

Scouts suck at taking out anything with a 3+ armour save, a pair of tactical squads on the other hand would rip them apart especially with plasma cannons or heavy bolters and plasma rifles

BTW that army list there comes in at 1140 points, leaving a good whack of points in a 1500 games for heavy support like three predator destructors

Foda_Bett wrote:Spellbound about CSM's lack of goodness

*looks at his CSM and dies a little inside*

I had no idea (having not really played the game too much) about the shortcomings of CSM. Looking at the models I have, I don't think my army will do very well, being mostly comprised of HW Havocs and regular CSM...

[Still Spellbound posting on foda]

Silver, if you read all of that, what I said was that regular CSM ARE the good things in the codex. They come with Ld 9, frag and krak grenades, bolters, AND bp/ccw for the lowest points of any other troop choice in the codex. Able to take two assault weapons and a cheap rhino, they can be very deadly.

The problem basically is that they pay too much for certain upgrades. 25 points gets you a powerfist. Ork nobs pay the same points but have an extra base attack and +1 S when charging, so they get more for the same cost. SM have that same comparison-disadvantage though.

Havocs suffer from the perils of 5th edition more than sucking on their own as a unit. 5th edition favors mobility and armour, and havocs don't have it. I OWN lascannon havocs and heavy bolter havocs, but they've fallen by the wayside in favor of other units. In their defense, though, there's really nothing better at dropping tyranid monstrous creatures than a team of 4 lascannons with an aspiring champion w/ combi-plasmagun, so you can still make good use of them.

Keep your chaos army. I play chaos still, and always will. Our codex got hosed in terms of options this time around, but you can still make a viable list, and using basic CSM is definitely the way to go about it - I just got 74/100 points at a GT using mostly basic CSM with icons of Slaanesh, something dakkaites would tell you is a terrible idea. So stick with it! CSM are GOOD, they just lack OPTIONS like SM and Orks and people have gotten.

SilverMK2 wrote:

Foda_Bett wrote:Spellbound about CSM's lack of goodness

*looks at his CSM and dies a little inside*

I had no idea (having not really played the game too much) about the shortcomings of CSM. Looking at the models I have, I don't think my army will do very well, being mostly comprised of HW Havocs and regular CSM...

The strength of the chaos codex is in its troops. If all you have is a crap load of spiky guys in power armor, then count yourself lucky for not having the more worthless models. I took 1st place in 'Ard Boyz with an army that included 50 CSM. When you add rhinos and Havok Launchers to CSM with melta guns you suddenly have a very strong all-round mobile assault, anti armor, and anti horde unit.

sourclams wrote:The strength of the chaos codex is in its troops. If all you have is a crap load of spiky guys in power armor, then count yourself lucky for not having the more worthless models. I took 1st place in 'Ard Boyz with an army that included 50 CSM. When you add rhinos and Havok Launchers to CSM with melta guns you suddenly have a very strong all-round mobile assault, anti armor, and anti horde unit.

Batrep and list please! I'm liking Flavius' idea more and more of going all out with Fabius Bile's enhanced troopers, and I'm also trying to work a bunch of cheap dreadnoughts in!

Actually, keep two CC weapons on the dreads, and fire frenzy is not really an issue. And you have something else that tears up in CC.

*is uplifted*

Thanks for restoring my faith guys

jmurph wrote:Actually, keep two CC weapons on the dreads, and fire frenzy is not really an issue. And you have something else that tears up in CC.

Fire Frenzy isn't really an issue with 2 CC weapons, thats true, however, when you roll that 1, you are stuck there for a turn, which is a pretty big detriment for even a cheap 100 point model. Also, if you get immobilized, the dread becomes useless. Even still, having 2 or more dreads makes up for that in redundancy.

Scouts suck at taking out anything with a 3+ armour save, a pair of tactical squads on the other hand would rip them apart especially with plasma cannons or heavy bolters and plasma rifles

BTW that army list there comes in at 1140 points, leaving a good whack of points in a 1500 games for heavy support like three predator destructors

QFT

I shredded a pair of ten man berserker squads last night with a unit of sternies paired up with Lysander. AND Telion and the boys did some solid work with their 2+ cover save all night (Thanks for bolstering my defenses Big D!).

I do so enjoy when people crap all over other units without really grasping strategy themselves.

I've heard Lysander is a terrible character, and should never be taken.

......and I believe those people are on crack. I've seen him soak thousands of points in firepower and lead squads to decimate the enemy both shooting and in cc. He's amazing really, and I wonder why more people don't take him.

Spellbound wrote:I've heard Lysander is a terrible character, and should never be taken.

......and I believe those people are on crack. I've seen him soak thousands of points in firepower and lead squads to decimate the enemy both shooting and in cc. He's amazing really, and I wonder why more people don't take him.

He doesn't grant insanely awesome army-wide special rules that exponentially multiply the power of your force. I don't think anyone has ever said that he sucks, but he makes a pretty nifty beatstick and that's about it. As for the sternguard trick, that is pretty nifty, but how many points did you sink to re-roll their shots? Also, how do you get them around with Lysander? If they ride in a land raider, that's easily 1/3 or more of your army, and otherwise, they are on foot which makes them vulnerable. If you add a librarian to gate them all around, they become almost as expensive as the land raider option.

Conversely, somebody else can take Shrike and 2x 10 TH/SS terminators, and your Sternguard + Lysander and whatever else you had in the army is done.

Lysander can walk around by himself once he's delivered with a squad of terminators. Sternguard can ride around in a rhino. It's possible to drive both forward and disembark. During disembarkation, Lysander goes from joined to terminators to joined to sternguard. Sternguard uber-shoot a nearby unit, then the terminators assault whatever they were going to go after. Anyone counter-charging the sternguard has to now deal with Lysander!

Consequently, in a crusader you could have 6 terminators and a terminator librarian with Null Zone in the raider with Lysander. Combi-melta or plasma-armed sternguard can shoot those thunder-hammer terminators while lightning claw or your own TH termies charge, after the Librarian casts Null Zone. That would do QUITE a number on any enemy terminator units, even if they are TH/SS. Good enough for me!

Hey nice posts,

Just wanted to add one thing,
Tyranids do have diffrent sects.
Leviathen, Bohemoth, ect...
One is known for its use of Biovores, ect.....
Not to be a *pecker* but I just had to throw that in their.
Tau has some diffrent things aswell, what about that one commander that fights mostly Orcs, his army is laid out diffrently, just saying

Theoretically, tyranid fleets would get "known" for using certain types of units depending on the enemies they're fighting. They all adapt based on effectiveness and enemies, not according to "preference". So if they get known for something it'll depend on A) stage of invasion and B) types of opponents.

whitedragon wrote:Also, how do you get them around with Lysander? If they ride in a land raider, that's easily 1/3 or more of your army, and otherwise, they are on foot which makes them vulnerable. If you add a librarian to gate them all around, they become almost as expensive as the land raider option.

I've only played on 48" depth tables so moving him isn't an issue, either he comes down in a drop-pod or he waits for the other team to come get him and his sternguard, in the later case the sternies have heavy bolters. One of my eventful battles with him was in a 1000 point mini tournie where a squad of killcans backed up by two squads of boys managed to kill all of the sternguard; lysander then went on to kill the two killcans and the deffdread before ripping into the second squad of boys (the first had been torn apart by my predator and a tactical squad as they couldn't get into cc and had to get around the dreads).
He's not perfect, I would like it if he at least had a bolt pistol, but as long as you don't let him go against hordes of lasguns etc he will kill more than his own points, and at the end of the day that's what you want in this game

Spellbound wrote:Theoretically, tyranid fleets would get "known" for using certain types of units depending on the enemies they're fighting. They all adapt based on effectiveness and enemies, not according to "preference". So if they get known for something it'll depend on A) stage of invasion and B) types of opponents.

Some of the fleets are different though, because they will have absorbed different genetic material and abilities/etc from the creatures they have attacked and absorbed. I seem to recall reading something about a suspected tyranid fleet that actually contained creatures capable of rational speach which talked with the Imperial soldiers and fleet, inviting them on board before killing them. Though I might be muddling things up.

However, there are a number of "suspected" tyranid creatures in the galaxy that have evolved cut off from the fleets which are unique, which goes some way to prove that the tyranid fleets may well differ until they meet, fight (to determine the fittest) and absorb each others genetic material to create even stronger organisms.

Inigo Montoya wrote:
Dreadnoughts that work.

Don't rub it in.

Spellbound wrote:Lysander can walk around by himself once he's delivered with a squad of terminators. Sternguard can ride around in a rhino. It's possible to drive both forward and disembark. During disembarkation, Lysander goes from joined to terminators to joined to sternguard. Sternguard uber-shoot a nearby unit, then the terminators assault whatever they were going to go after. Anyone counter-charging the sternguard has to now deal with Lysander!

Consequently, in a crusader you could have 6 terminators and a terminator librarian with Null Zone in the raider with Lysander. Combi-melta or plasma-armed sternguard can shoot those thunder-hammer terminators while lightning claw or your own TH termies charge, after the Librarian casts Null Zone. That would do QUITE a number on any enemy terminator units, even if they are TH/SS. Good enough for me!

Like I said in my post, he is a really big beatstick and has a nifty trick, but the army you describe is literally over 1000 points for less than 20 models and you haven't even added troops yet. Conversely a Vulkan or Shrike army will have alot more in it, with bonuses army wide rather than just the unit Lysander is with.

Lysander (200)

Librarian (100)

10 Sternguard (250)

7 Assault Terminators (530)
in a Land Raider Crusader

See the list above. You literally have spent 1130 points and don't have any troops yet, and this assumes no extra equipment on the sternguard and Librarian. If you take 1130 points worth of space marines built around Vulkan or Shrike, you would get alot more value.

Spellbound wrote:Lysander can walk around by himself once he's delivered with a squad of terminators. Sternguard can ride around in a rhino. It's possible to drive both forward and disembark. During disembarkation, Lysander goes from joined to terminators to joined to sternguard. Sternguard uber-shoot a nearby unit, then the terminators assault whatever they were going to go after. Anyone counter-charging the sternguard has to now deal with Lysander!

Consequently, in a crusader you could have 6 terminators and a terminator librarian with Null Zone in the raider with Lysander. Combi-melta or plasma-armed sternguard can shoot those thunder-hammer terminators while lightning claw or your own TH termies charge, after the Librarian casts Null Zone. That would do QUITE a number on any enemy terminator units, even if they are TH/SS. Good enough for me!

Holy crap man, you're doing that the hard (and expensive) way. Lysander is a fine wound sink/close combat ward for a sternguard unit in the spearhead of an army. You can even footslog them with reasonable success if you don't have a drop pod for them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

whitedragon wrote:

Spellbound wrote:Lysander can walk around by himself once he's delivered with a squad of terminators. Sternguard can ride around in a rhino. It's possible to drive both forward and disembark. During disembarkation, Lysander goes from joined to terminators to joined to sternguard. Sternguard uber-shoot a nearby unit, then the terminators assault whatever they were going to go after. Anyone counter-charging the sternguard has to now deal with Lysander!

Consequently, in a crusader you could have 6 terminators and a terminator librarian with Null Zone in the raider with Lysander. Combi-melta or plasma-armed sternguard can shoot those thunder-hammer terminators while lightning claw or your own TH termies charge, after the Librarian casts Null Zone. That would do QUITE a number on any enemy terminator units, even if they are TH/SS. Good enough for me!

Like I said in my post, he is a really big beatstick and has a nifty trick, but the army you describe is literally over 1000 points for less than 20 models and you haven't even added troops yet. Conversely a Vulkan or Shrike army will have alot more in it, with bonuses army wide rather than just the unit Lysander is with.

Lysander (200)

Librarian (100)

10 Sternguard (250)

7 Assault Terminators (530)
in a Land Raider Crusader

See the list above. You literally have spent 1130 points and don't have any troops yet, and this assumes no extra equipment on the sternguard and Librarian. If you take 1130 points worth of space marines built around Vulkan or Shrike, you would get alot more value.

Drop Pod, Lysander + 10 Man Sternguard Squad w/4 combi meltas was my original deployment method. I happen to run Kantor as well to make them scoring and generally give them an extra attack + stubborn.

It's not bad, and let's be honest, Terminators are not everyone's cup of tea. I'd much rather my elite slots be sternguard because they've NEVER underwhelmed me.

Um...drop pod + Lysander + Sternguard + Kantor is still about 800 points. What can other armies take for 800 points?

Well dont count out my two favorite units in the chaos list
1. Thousand Sons: while slow and purposeful they can still their bolters when they move and this trashes marines and are incredibly tough though expensive they can easily out match sternguard.
2. Oblits are a brutal ranged unit and can match any specialized unit in range and role

Battle Brother Loken wrote:Well dont count out my two favorite units in the chaos list
1. Thousand Sons: while slow and purposeful they can still their bolters when they move and this trashes marines and are incredibly tough though expensive they can easily out match sternguard.
2. Oblits are a brutal ranged unit and can match any specialized unit in range and role

Obliterators are admittedly tough to deal with being two wound terminator models. Consider though that Thousand Sons CSMS are not nearly as versatile as Sternguard.Though they have AP3 (AP2? Can't recall off the top of my head) weapons, which are great against heavy infantry, they still allow cover saves, wound on +4, and are shorter range than each variant of normal bolter ammo. Thousand Son troops are significantly less likely to be able to spearhead a charge with slow and purposeful (although being able to shoot the full 24 on the move makes them better as fire support, along with the aspiring sorceror's bolt of tzeentch), and can't be combat squad-ed for extra scoring. There are different roles for both units with Sternguard filling more varied combat roles than Thousand Sons overall.

Not to take anything away from a very cool unit, but Thousand Sons are not flexible enough for what you pay, especially considering how cheaply and effectively you can outfit Sternguard for anti-armor and horde operations.

Chaos troops are better at what they do, but Space Marines can do a bit of everything and I'm pretty sure this balances out in the end. Especially considering my games against Chaos players end in more draws than any other matchup.

oddjustice wrote:Not to take anything away from a very cool unit, but Thousand Sons are not flexible enough for what you pay, especially considering how cheaply and effectively you can outfit Sternguard for anti-armor and horde operations.

Chaos troops are better at what they do, but Space Marines can do a bit of everything and I'm pretty sure this balances out in the end. Especially considering my games against Chaos players end in more draws than any other matchup.

Thousand Sons Advantages
- Don't lose anything from taking small squads, no need to combat squad (Just take two squads of 5 if you want, or a squad of 20)
- Sorcerer can be loaded out to do whatever you want. (Bolt, Wind or Warptime)
- 4+ Inv save
- Fearless
- Slow and Purposeful means you can shoot farther or rapid fire and still assault if need be
- Cheaper than Sternguard
- Troops

Something to remember is that Sternguard Vengeance Rounds have Gets Hot! While Thousand Suns really lose effectiveness if their Aspiring Sorcerer gets picked off.

Exarch_Nektel wrote:Here's one for you. The Chaos Marine codex was terribly designed so that virtually only one type of list could work well. Also, the cool legions, like Iron Warriors, Night Lords, and Word Bearers aren't even given there own special rules in the codex. It's a disgrace.

QFT

The 4th ed chaos codex was MUCH better.

somecallmeJack wrote:

Exarch_Nektel wrote:Here's one for you. The Chaos Marine codex was terribly designed so that virtually only one type of list could work well. Also, the cool legions, like Iron Warriors, Night Lords, and Word Bearers aren't even given there own special rules in the codex. It's a disgrace.

QFT

The 4th ed chaos codex was MUCH better.

You mean the 3.5 ed codex. The one we have now is the 4th ed codex, seeing how it was released at the end of 4th edition.

So I got around to reading Spellbound's post, via Foda_Bett, and I'd just like to point out everything he's gotten wrong, and rebut the mistaken conclusions he's thoughtlessly drawn.

"First of all", no Abbadon does not "buff" his whole army. He simply adds A4+1D6 S8 Power Weapon attacks at I6 re-rolling all failed rolls to wound. All he does is demolish units, Guardsman, Land Raiders, it's all the same. Otherwise, well, I agree he's useless. Fabius Bile is the character that enhances the Chaos Space Marine army. If you're afraid of him running away, put him in a Fearless unit. There's plenty of Fearless units running around in the Codex that would better support him than four Terminator Champions. Eight Possessed with the Icon of Khorne, for example, or Eight Berzerkers, or Eight Enhanced Chaos Space Marines with an Icon of Slaanesh. And, don't forget, his Personal Icon synergizes with the rest of his army to bring either quality (Terminators, Obliterators) or quantity (Lesser Daemons) in on his position.

If I wanted Ravenguard, I'd probably be taking something like Assault Marines. As a Chaos Space Marine player I'm never tired of my Terminators running away, because they win combats, and have good enough Leadership that morale checks due to casualties aren't really an issue. If the Lash of Submission turns up, I shut it down the old fashioned way: with overwhelming firepower, or simply claming up in my transports, and usually both. The Chaos Space Marine army is already an entire army full of units that are great at popping tanks, and roasting infantry, and following up with 3 attacks per Chaos Space Marine in a charge. The Chaos Space Marines already do what your enhanced Marines can do without being enhanced by characters.

Ahriman doesn't get all of the Chaos Psychic Powers because he's dedicated to Tzeentch, and so characterfully does not have powers that are the province of Nurgle. Unlike Tigurius Ahriman gets an Invulnerable save, W3, I5, A3, and Warptime. Warptime lets him re-roll all his misses and wounds, meaning his shooting powers are nigh guaranteed to destroy something, and he's a close combat monster. He can also cast three Psychic Powers per turn. He could, possibly, kill both Abbadon, Maneus Calgar, and the Nightbringer in a single turn, thanks to Gift of Chaos. He won't help the Thousand Suns he joins re-rolls Gets Hot! rolls because the Thousand Suns don't suffer from that deficiency in their AP3 bolters, which they can move and fire and assault at full effect. He will prevent them from suffering from the loss of their Aspiring Sorcerer, but that loss is unlikely because the Aspiring Sorcerer is not an Independent Character.

Lucius is a fantastic horde and character killer, all in one. His Doom Siren and Armour of Shrieking Souls murders hordes, and even Elite units. The best part is that he's inexpensive, so that his Personal Icon can be put to good use bringing Lesser Daemons charging in with him on the turn they arrive, Arigon-style. He enhances any unit he's with his Lash of Torment and close combat murderousness, and is far cheaper points-wise than Pedro Cantor or Kar'sarro Khan. Pedro Cantor lets you count Sternguard as Troops, which is okay because you get Noise Marines as Troops whether you take Lucius or not. He doesn't need an Inspiring Presence because most Chaos units are Fearless or can be made Fearless.

Huron Blackheart, again, is a close combat monster than to combining the effects of Warptime with the stats of a Chaos Lord, and either a Power Weapon or Power Fist, which makes him more flexible than Vulkan He'stan, his Heavy Flamethrower more effective, By all means make the measly few Melta Guns you can get in your army Twin-Linked. Chaos Space Marines can have up to five in a unit of Chaos, and more is better than fewer. Then there is Typhus, he of the Sorcerous Powers and the Poisonous Daemon Weapon. He is mass destruction incarnate.

The Chaos Space Marine army is about high risk, high reward play, while the Space Marine army is about low risk, steady play, so each unit needs to co-ordinate with every other unit or you are toast. Chaos Space Marines pay for their flexibility with risk, but they have to have some downside. Chaos Space Marines, for example, have better Leadership, better equipment, and better options than Tactical Marines with the downside that if they run, they run. But Tactical Marines can also run, are more likely to run, and smart play lets you negate the auto-rally effect of And They Shall Know No Fear. Unsurprising for different units in different armies, no?

Chaos has plenty besides the Lash of Submission, Plague Marines, and Obliterators. It has Warptime, for example, that maximizes the effects of both psychic shooting attacks and close combat attacks. It has Gift of Chaos, a power which can defeat any model in the game, and produce new models. It has Nurgle's Rot, which allows a model in close combat to act as a weapon of mass destruction to surrounding units. No other army has the ability to devastate multiple small units as efficiently.

Chaos has incredible variety of troop choices, most with tremendous flexibility, and two with tremendous power in their given roles: Chaos Space Marines, Thousand Suns, and Noise Marines are all flexible and hard-hitting, capable of engaging all targets in all situations. Plague Marines are the premiere objective holders, and Berzerkers are murderous assault troops.

Compare Thousand Suns to the Sternguard, for example. Sternguard are Elites, 25pts apiece if you arm them with Combi-Meltas, and have A2. Chaos Space Marines are Troops, 17 pts apiece if you arm them with two Melta Guns, and have A1+1 for Extra Close Combat Weapon. That's without including the options for more Attacks, higher Initiative, higher Toughness, or an Invulnerable save. Who needs Force Dome when you have the Icon of Tzeentch? Thousand Suns are Troops, 23 pts apiece, don't worry about Gets Hot! at all, are Relentless, 4+ Invulnerabe, and come with a Sorcerer that has the Mark of Tzeentch. That Mark of Tzeentch makes the Sorcerer better than a hidden Powerfist, conferring a 4+ Invulnerable, two Psychic Powers a turn, including Instant Death from a Force Weapon, perhaps enhanced with Warptime, an extra attack thanks to the BOlt Pistol with Inferno Bolts, and far tougher squadmates to hide amongst. Or you can just give him Gift of Chaos, tarpit attacks for a turn, and then add a couple of Spawn to the combat, for D6+1 S5 attacks. Sternguard are vulnerable because they have to enter charge range of everything to be used to full effect, and they are only marginally better at combat than Tactical Space Marines, and the equal of Chaos Space Marines.

So the Chaos Vindicator is more expensive than the Space Marine Vindicator? So? Different armies, different incentives to take difference combinations of units. And About Chaos Land Raiders? Give me Daemonic Possession over the Machine Spirit any day. They can have Combi-Meltas, Combi-Flamers, even Combi-Plasma, as well as a Havoc Launcher. Space Marine Land Raiders don't get these bargains. I'm glad you noticed every unit of Chaos Terminators can take a Land Raider though, whereas only one unit of Terminators and one unit of Assault Terminators can take a Land Raider in the Space Marine Codex. I suppose it incentivizes Deathwing players. Not to mention Chaos Terminators start cheap and awesome, like Terminator Sergeants but 10pts cheaper, and with a minimum unit size of 3. That means six Land Raiders in an army is possible at 1850pts with room to spare. Pretty average sized game in North Am these days.

The Chaos Codex has proper progression, no longer beholden to the artificial progression of previous Codeces. Abbadon, after all, is simply a Chaos Lord with the Mark of Chaos before you add the Mark of Tzeentch, the Mark of Slaanesh, and the Mark of Nurgle, a super Daemon Weapon, Terminator Armour, Eternal Warrior equivalent, a Personal Icon, and re-rolling any failed roll to wound in close combat. He's not the Super-Lord of Khorne, that's Kharn, he's the Warmaster of Chaos and his melding of all the Marks plus the extra stuff reflects his ecumenical status.

As for Straken, let me let you in on a secret: T3, I3. He hits like a Daemon Prince, after the real close combat monsters have had a chance to fight. And, unlike a Daemon Prince, he has no Wings to deliver him to the battlefield of his choice, and no Eternal Warrior to prevent him from going squit like a pimple when a Daemon Prince decides to squeeze his head off, or a Chaos Sorcerer decides to Instant Kill him, or Ahriman decides he needs more Spawn. Straken has all those enhancements to incentivize his use because otherwise he'd simply be too soft to use.

Marine Bikers are 9 points less than Chaos Bikers in the initial buy, and eight points less per additional Biker. Then again, Marine Bikers don't get Icons, or escort Chaos Characters with Icons, and lack all Daemon-Bombability. In addition, like all Chaos Space Marines, Chaos Bikers remembered to bring a Close Combat Weapon, giving them effectively A3 on the charge. I'd say they're about even.

Chaos Raptors do get special rules: they have the option of Icons, and they have access to a greater variety of special weapons than Assault Marines do, particularly the Melta Guns that are in such high demand these days. So they can be tougher, faster, more brutal, and less vulnerable. As for Space Marines getting Vanguard, yes they do. I like Vanguard, but they're far more expensive than Assault Marines or Raptors even with an Icon.

It's perfectly possible for Chaos Space Marine to play a "fluffy" list and stay competitive. In fact, the list rewards "fluffy" lists and doesn't constrain you in what sort of fluff you'd like to employ. No list requires the Lash of Submission to work, although the Lash of Submission is pretty handy against newbs, or people that haven't made the transition to 5th edition. Noise Marines have Blast Masters and Melta Bombs, and can be built into expensive but versatile squads, or focused into cheaper dedicated squads. You can even plump for Power Fists for the Noise Champion, though it's giving up the I5 he has (not bad against Tyranids and the like though, plus people don't expect it). Likewise Thousand Suns can have Melta Bombs, Bolts of Change (especially combined with Warptime, you virtually can't miss with a 24" AP1 weapon), and Winds of Chaos.

You don't have to take Plague Marines in a Slaanesh-aligned army. You can use Chaos Space Marines with an Icon of Slaanesh, and benefit from the additional numbers and access to a heavy weapon, or take a short Noise Marine squad with a Blast Master, or a large basic squad of 15 or 15 or so. The fact is that the Lash of Submission has interfered with people exploring the list more deeply and developing the tactical acumen that would allow them to maximize the effectiveness of the army rather than hit the easy button, but never be able to work beyond the crutch of the Lash of Submission.

Similarly Obliterators are the epitomy of the Chaos high risk/reward scale. You don't get many, they're hideously expensive, and they're softer than any equivalent points value worth of models in the army. If they get assaulted by enemy assault troops, they're dead, if they get hit by anti-tank weapon (the same weapons that are so effective against Rhinos, Land Raiders, Daemon Princes, and Plague Mariens) they're dead. They actually make Vanguard useful, and then useless as people stop bothering with them. You get more weapons, wounds, and close combat power out of an equivalent number of Havocs, long range and less vulnerability from a Defiler, more accurate Lascannons on a Land Raider and cheaper Lascannons on a Predator.

Dreadnoughts are only a risk if you're not prepared for them going crazy, and if you're prepared for them to go crazy then you can use it to your benefit. If you're going to go for close combat Dreadnoughts, the coolest looking ones, take three with double Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons and run up the field. If you're going to take a fire support Dreadnought, stick is near a Land Raider and run up the field. Best of all, the Chaos Dreadnought is cheap, occasionally doubles its firepower (Heavy Flamethrower and Plasma Cannon for the win!), and occasionally Fleet. You won't see an Ironclad Dreadnought charge an enemy 18" away. As for engaging units in cover, well, anything that's going to threaten the Chaos Dreadnought in combat will be hitting on I1. Plus the Chaos Dreadnought starts at A3, with A4 if taking two Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons.

Now Havoc are awesome. You can stick them in a Rhino with a Havoc Launcher, two Melta Guns and two Flamethowers, and go hunting. If you want to give them Autocannons, go for it, as they'll be more effecive against the inevitable torrent of Valkyries, Hellhounds, DevilFish, and son on than Obliterators.

Cult troops aren't the only Fearless units in the Codex. Possessed Chaos Space Marines are Fearless, Obliterators are Fearless, all the Chaos characters are Fearless except the Sorcerer and all you have to do is stick him in a Fearless squad. I like Possessed for that purpose.

Speaking of Fearless, Fabius Bile has this rule that lets you Enhance squads of Chaos Space Marines, which include Chaos Space Marines, Chosen Chaos Space Marines, Bikers, and Havocs. In fact, they not only get Fearless for +3pts, but they also get S5. So you too can have a unit of ten Havocs with four Flamethrowers with an Icon of Khorne. They'll be Fearless, and attack with four attacks each on the charge.

So, in point of fact, you are embarrassingly wrong about making squads Fearless. You can, in fact, make squads Fearless by a Special Character's Special Rule. A "buff" if you will. Of course, you have to take Fabius Bile, but he's a pretty tough kitten himself, full of Instant Death attacks. You can't have Fearless Terminators, I'll agree, but with Ld10

Possessed aren't totally random. The Daemonkin table has six results, and the unit will get one of those six results. Otherwise they behave exactly as it says on the box: S5 Iv5+ A2 I'd advise against Chosen outflanking, unless your entire army is starting in reserve, because they're much more useful starting up close and in the enemy's face where their masses of special weapons can murderize, or their close combat equipment can slaughter.

The Chaos Space Marine Codex has ten different HQ choices, three of which have an incredible variety of configurations to choose from. Daemon Princes, for example, can go cheap and go Khorne. Nurgle-aligned Princes can massacre opponents in close combat using Warptime or Nurgle's Rot. Tzeentch-aligned Princes can hammer opponents with Warptimed Wind of Chaos, Doombolt, or BOlts of Change, and then massacre in combat. Slaanesh Daemon Princes have the Option of Lash, but do better with Warptime to maximize their close combat potential of I6.

Chaos Lords can be fielded as Terminators, mounted on Steeds, on Bikes, with Jump Packs, and armed with Daemon Weapons, Lightening Claws, and the all important Personal Icons. Chaos Sorcerers can do even nastier things, like combine Combi-Weapons in Terminator Armour with Warptime, take up to three psychic powers, useful powers (not like Machine Curse!), and fight nearly as well (perhaps better with Warptime). A Chaos Sorcerer of Nurgle on a Palaquin with Nurgle's Rot will tear the heart out of an Imperial Guard army.

All of this is sitting there waiting for players to explore beyond the obvious. It's all fluffy (gee, Dreadnoughts, Possessed, Daemon Weapons, Terminators, etc are Chaotic, who would have thought?), meaning that you can build a Khorne-aligned shooting force, a Berzerker World Eaters army, a company of the Thousand Suns, or part of an Iron Warriors' Grand Company.

That's why, Spellbound, someone might choose a Chaos Space Marine army over a Space Marine army.

I think Nurglitch writes army reviews for White Dwarf, in his spare time.

To reiterate, the strength of a Chaos list is in its troops slots. If you want a very fundamentally strong mechanized manpower army, it's hard to go wrong with Chaos Troops and Rhinos. They're certainly not unbeatable, but damn, that's versatility. The majority of their other slots tend to be overcosted and/or not very useful beyond what their troops are capable of, if not outright inferior.

The opposite is true of Marines. The basic Marine Tac squad isn't bad, but on a point-per-model basis they're not nearly as killy as the Elite, Heavy, and Fast selections and they certainly don't have much assault utility.

Marines for the Toys, Chaos for the Boys.

Oh god, do I really have to reply to each and every point? I'll just try to sum up. God, what a bother.

ANY chaos HQ with a daemon weapon is a scrub. 1 out of 6 times, more if you're khorne, and you stab yourself in the face. What's wrong with "aw, you just got 1 extra attack, better luck next time!" why's the damn thing have to stab you in the face? A charging carnifex can get d6+3 +d3 S10 and 5 attacks that all re-roll to wound and hit on 3+ for far cheaper than Abaddon when charging, so obviously it's not a cheese factor or overpower type thing. Why doesn't the carnifex stab itself in the face when it rolls a 1? ESPECIALLY Abaddon, who up until this edition has had mastery over his daemon weapon, and has suddenly lost it. That's a huge fluff element that's gone there. And a combi-bolter? Calgar gets an Ap2 stormbolter he re-rolls wounds with and the Talon of Horus, an OLDER artifact, is just a twin-linked bolter? No wonder Horus went psychic - his normal shooting sucked. That being said, Lucius NOT having a daemon weapon, when he's CLEARLY armed with one [even describes it in the fluff] is a travesty. His lash is only as good as a lash whip or grabba stick, both carried by models that cost less than him and are harder to kill. Great against hordes? Are you kidding me? He doesn't do well vs hordes, he just goes out with a bang. Sure you passed 15 saves and kill 10 gaunts. Too bad you failed 6 and are dead! That's not exactly equal, and his paltry 4 attacks [expert swordsman? Where's his special rules, re-roll misses, martial pride?] statistically kill maybe 2 before he goes down. 2. Doom siren? Yay? So he's 160 someodd points for what a Noisemarine Champion does for 50. It could be S6, or be Ap2, or re-roll wounds, or get 2d6 penetration against vehicles, SOMETHING good. His special armour could give him a 4+ save or even a super-cool 3+! But no, it gives the same as any chaos lord has normally. He's horribly overpriced for what you get. He has as many base attacks as a terminator aspiring champion!

You keep mentioning multiple psychic powers, or the ability to use a psychic power and then use a force weapon - that is ONLY Tzeentch that can do that. If I have a Slaanesh-themed army [Emperor's Children, which I do] then that's not an option for me. Marines can be any chapter, any company, include an Epistolary, and still be fluffy. I can't put a Tzeentch character in my army and still be Emperor's Children.

You keep mentioning possessed, as if they're actually good. They pay a ton of points, and are only good if they get power weapons, MAYBE rending. Fleet? Psht. A space marine army can pick shrike [a decent character on his own] and make their entire ARMY fleet without praying for a random roll. Fleeting terminators, that'd be something nice. Fleeting guys with 2 attacks? And a SINGLE close combat weapon? Really? They can't pick up another stick? And no champion to buy a power weapon for? I don't really feel like waiting for my opponent to fail saves.

I knew someone was going to bring up "Ahriman pays so many points for his superior close combat abilities!" Please. I don't care. Nowhere in his fluff is Ahriman labelled a close combat monster, so it really just furthers the point: Why is a basic marine librarian more versatile and powerful than the ultimate sorceror? Why does the most powerful sorceror not have ANYTHING anti-psychic? There used to be the Talisman of Tzeentch, a simple wargear item that put enemy casters at a -1 to cast. He couldn't even keep that? Oh and he can't kill 3 models a turn with gift of chaos, because he can only cast the same power twice

The fluff is GONE. Abaddon can join possessed or cult troops?.......who cares? Abaddon doesn't run with a bunch of crazed lunatics to prevent them from chasing down the enemy when they win combat [which he would do, now]. He runs with TERMINATORS, and they're the best of the best. Or, in our codex, WS4 2 attack dudes who scare at the slightest provocation. Terminators win combat? Really? Like against.... hive tyrants? C'tan? Daemon prince double-charges? Greater daemons? Bloodthirsters? Avatars they need a 5+ to hit? Incubi? Space Marine thunder hammer terminators? Black templar terminators with S5 I5 lightning claws and preferred enemy? I'm not saying they're terrible. I'm not even saying they should match every single bit of the fluff [because otherwise they'd single handedly kill titans, we all know that] but shouldn't a chaos lord be able to take one unit of elite guard that ensure he won't run away, doesn't have to worry about getting shot, and have SOME kind of special rule to reflect this?

Straken is a weenie, sure - but he's got plenty of ablative wounds to last until he brings down whatever it is he's dealing with. And apparently he's a better leader than any chaos character that's ever lived, because the squad HE joins is fearless.

Another point you brought up - Chaos has higher leadership. Really? I mean sure, that number is higher. But when space marines can get stubborn so that lower number stays where it is as opposed to being reduced to nothing in a bad combat, or can take a character so that they're all Ld 10, or can choose to pass or fail so it doesn't matter.... that doesn't really make up for it. At all.

Chaos marine squads get 2 assault weapons. Woohoo! An advantage. Won't argue that, moving along.

Enhanced chaos space marines require you to take Fabius Bile, a worthless character that sucks. And you have to PAY for the buff. I'd rather take Vulkan, who'll beat the crap out of any non-special [and most of the special] characters in the chaos codex and gives a way better buff to the army for zero points.

Huron? You're comparing Huron to vulkan and saying he's better? Versatility in having a S4 power weapon or a S8 powerfist? I'd rather just be S6 at initiative. After he casts a psychic power he gets re-rolls to wound, yes that's true. Luckily he needs it since he has no wargear to give him any rerolls and with only a S4 power weapon he really needs re-rolls. It's a good thing he can cast a psychic power that essentially gives him a master-crafted lightning claw. But hey, at least he's got a 2+ armour save and a 3+ invulnerable save right? ....4+? ....awww.

I got a good laugh at Ahriman killing those three characters in one go by the way. First of all, I'd contest - most characters specify "may use the same power twice", which he does not say is possible. Next, you have to be fighting those three armies. Next, they have to start the turn next to you - it was way better when you could A) move before using it, to get into position and B) take an item of wargear to extend the range of the power out to possibly 8", instead of being stuck with 2. Here's a more likely scenario than being next to Nightbringer at the start of the turn, alive, passing a Ld 10 check, rolling a 6, and having him fail his 4+ save: Cast Null Zone on the same leadership 10 check. Now have 5 sternguard shoot hellfire rounds at Nightbringer. 7 hit, 6 wound. Nightbringer fails 3 saves, but has to re-roll the other 3 because of Null Zone. Now he stands a very good chance of dying. That librarian also has a force weapon and also has a psychic hood, which Ahriman has not. Ahriman's best shot outside of the incredibly unlikely gift of chaos is Bolt of Change, which has all told about a 15% chance of wounding Nightbringer. I'll take the sternguard, please.

Thousand Sons are really terrible. You mentioned "Ahriman won't allow them to re-roll their gets hot rolls because they don't have to! ha-hah!" Who cares about get hot? That's a side effect. Fact is they're re-rolling MISSES, which means the unit does better when Lysander's there. Sure they can move, fire and assault at full effect - why would you want to assault?

"Most chaos units are fearless or can be made fearless" How do I make them fearless? Fabius Bile? Nevermind, just...ugh. That discussion's over before it begins.

"Chaos marines have better equipment" what do we have that marines don't have? Sonic weaponry? Reaper autocannons [shorter ranged, twin-linked?]? What about their special issue bolters, that AP2 stormbolter Marneus has, that 4-shot Ap4 stormbolter Pedro has, those assault cannons, thunder hammers, storm shields, relic blades, digital weapons, master-crafted weapons, seismic hammers, dreadnought chainfists, frag assault launchers, or orbital bombardments? It seems the marines outclass us in cool toys, actually.

I'm aware CSM have more than lash, plaguemarines, and oblits. I don't use the second ever, and only occasionally use ONE squad of oblits. I do use lash though, because while warp time may mean I kill an extra guy [in that fearless/stubborn/whatever ability they have enemy squad] or two, lash means I win the game when I push someone off an objective.

Thousand sons are not flexible. They are anti-infantry. Having a single model with a single tank-killing shot that's not as good as a meltagun or multi-melta and costs at least 175 or so points to take doesn't make you a flexible squad. Same with noisemarines, also anti-infantry. Taking that single shot S8 template blastmaster costs a minimum of 140 points. I could buy a predator for cheaper and have 2 S7, 2 S9 shots and be immune to S6 and lower weaponry. Noisemarines fare better as tank killers using their krak grenades in cc, honestly. I wish I could say the same for thousand sons, but they left their grenades at home. Plaguemarines are the premier objective holders against anything that isn't designed to kill them. Gotta say if I'm getting shelled with battle cannons, I sure wish I just had twice as many basic CSM with a cheap icon of undivided instead!

"Who needs force dome when you have the icon of tzeentch?" Don't you mean who needs either, when you have 5th edition? Just get cover from something. Old school thousand sons with their 2 wounds in cover would be way better than the current edition of automatons that don't benefit from cover at all. And if you shoot 1ksons with bolters, regular plain old bolters, they die like regular marines. Heck if I was in a sternguard vs 1ksons war, I'd just shoot hellfire rounds for more wounds. Going from a 4+ to a 2+ to wound, avoiding gets hot, is a bigger increase than the change from a 4+ to a 3+ save does for you. Instant death from your force weapon is only occasionally useful. Most big things are immune to instant death, and single wound models laugh and call it a power weapon - that you paid too much for. "Far tougher squadmates to hide amongst" they're tougher against enemy power weapons and such, yes. Regular stuff? Guardsmen? Same as regular marines, same same same.

Daemonic possession over machine spirit any day? Are you insane? They can move 12" and still fire a gun! Any gun! If I ignore your landraider in favor of other targets, you basically paid extra points to reduce your BS and can't fire any more weapons than you did before, especially if you use your transport capacity [which is less than the marine equivalent btw].

Every unit of chaos terminators can take a landraider, as opposed to only two space marine squads? Did I read you correctly? The difference of ONE landraider.... not to mention they can actually have more in each one, that are more resilient than ours? And who takes that many landraiders anyway? How is that an argument, "we can take more"? We can take more chaos spawn, too. Who cares?

Lesser daemons have no fluff. I can't take Slaanesh daemons if I wanted to. My friend's Bloodthirster model doesn't actually have wings. Boring, generic, run-of-the-mill daemons. Terrible stuff, that, truly truly is. And the daemons we got are just KP waiting to happen. Best thing about daemons? Watching the look of distaste in your opponent's mouth when they have to direct enough fire to wipe out a unit of them on an objective, even when they know they are worthless and they should be shooting something else. Other than that? Really a waste of points. I'd rather pay 2 more and get a 3+ armour save with a shooting attack.

Abaddon is "just a chaos lord" with a bunch of marks? Well obviously, by his stats, but why is Calgar so amazing then? He's JUST a chapter master, but apparently that means he THROWS his bullets, and his orbital bombardment [which also re-rolls failed wound rolls] is actually his fist punching the ground? And he's a way better leader than Abaddon, allowing his squads to choose whether to fall back or not. Where's Abaddon's iron grip, his rule of fear, his total domination of the Black Legion through strength of arms? I could charge him with a noisemarine champion and kill him, if the poor guy just gets unlucky and slits his wrists a couple times.

Marine bikers don't get icons [which you have to pay more for], escort characters with icons [no, they don't need to... why did you take a chaos lord anyway?] and lack daemon bomb-ability - again, why would you? Who wants to charge an enemy with inferior troops that are essentially furious charging guardsmen? 9 or 8 points is a pretty big difference. So when I take 10 chaos bikers, the marine bikers have 85 more points to spend than me? On things like a powerfist for their [absolutely free] veteran sergeant, or plasmaguns for the bikes themselves? I could totally see my Slaanesh-marked bikers doing better than that. Oh wait. After the Slaanesh icon and the aspiring champion, I've given them enough for an attack bike too. Man, they could just stay at 24" and kill me if they wanted. I don't think it's quite an even trade.

Chaos raptors do NOT have special rules. "You may spend more points for a stat mod" is NOT a special rule. I'll grant you, though, the addition of meltaguns - up until this codex, marine assault squads could take whatever they liked. Raptors also cost less than marine assault squads so in the end I think I'll concede raptors are better than marine assault squads [minus ATSKNF] and add that to the growing list of 1 unit that is better than their marine equivalent [CSM to regular marines, and now raptors to assault marines whee!]

Saying the chaos codex has options and then pointing out possessed and daemon weapons is really about the worst logic I've ever seen. Daemon weapons are risky, and no honsestly the reward isn't really that high. After getting my d6 attacks I'm probably still only S4! And I have no re-rolls to hit or wound unless I'm Nurgle [poisoned, whee]. And it's not customizable at all. If I've chosen Slaanesh, BAM I get ONE kind of daemon weapon, EVER, if I want to take one. What if I want to say screw Instant death, I just want to be S5? I can't. I can't be Slaanesh and have a basic daemon weapon. The option isn't there. A marine character of any chapter can take a relic blade if he wants. And if he wants to re-roll wounds, he can take digital weapons if he wants. And if he wants more attacks, he can buy them!

I asked why CSM predators and vindicators are more expensive and you said "so what?" I want a REASON. A logical reason why a SM vindicator can not only pay less, but get an additional weapon on top of it. Why if he wants to make himself cost as much as mine, he can ignore dangerous terrain rather than just re-rolling. "Codex creep" is fine, even. So long as it's admitted and understood that chaos pays more for less, and is at a disadvantage in many cases because of it.


Chaos has excellent basic troops. That is all that can really be said for them. Everything else is as you said, risky and on top of that usually entirely against the fluff. Lucius running alongside khorne berserkers, Ahriman leading plaguemarines. Abaddon running away with what's left of his terminator squad because some carnifex made them WS3 and he rolled a 1 on his daemon weapon that he can't control ever since that 13th black crusade. The greatest sorceror that ever lived having his psychic powers cancelled, then completely at the mercy of some scrub that just put on his new shiny blue armour.

Chaos can WIN, chaos can BE COMPETITIVE but not in the way most people would like to do it. I got tied against by a pure khorne army with a prince and kharn, despite me having dual lash because once he was down to 7 models, he walked through my entire army and never didn't kill a unit. If you'd seen the game turn 3 you'd think I'd table him on the next turn. I myself kick the crap out of the oblit-plaguemarine-lash army all the time because they've only got 5 units that can make actions on the board.

People misunderstand my rant as saying the CSM army sucks when it fact it doesn't. I'm saying it doesn't make any SENSE, and is unfluffy in so, so, SO many ways. That's all. The real reason now to play CSM over regular SM really is that you like the background and the models. Aside from lash, the marine army can have everything we have in better updated versions for cheaper, so it MUST come down to those two things.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

sourclams wrote:I think Nurglitch writes army reviews for White Dwarf, in his spare time.

To reiterate, the strength of a Chaos list is in its troops slots. If you want a very fundamentally strong mechanized manpower army, it's hard to go wrong with Chaos Troops and Rhinos. They're certainly not unbeatable, but damn, that's versatility. The majority of their other slots tend to be overcosted and/or not very useful beyond what their troops are capable of, if not outright inferior.

The opposite is true of Marines. The basic Marine Tac squad isn't bad, but on a point-per-model basis they're not nearly as killy as the Elite, Heavy, and Fast selections and they certainly don't have much assault utility.

Marines for the Toys, Chaos for the Boys.

This is definitely a less fluff-ranty, special character-whiney version of what my post says, and sums it up very very well. I agree 100%.

Sheesh! I wanna play loyalists now....

Wait no I don't.

I suppose it's because Chaos are unfortunately very low on the update list. We will have an old codex for ages.

My friends always say 3.5 Ed was broken for Chaos. Looks like 4th was a punishment making them average.

And stop knocking Thousand Sons.They are great at what they do i.e. slaughtering MEQs and not needing cover. Plus they can actually move and fire at long range.