Chaos gods vs the Emporer?

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**Dreadwinter**

Khaine wasn't the only Eldar god that survived.

Two others still kicking it. Presumably.

**Manchu**

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Manchu wrote:
Xav wrote:I was under the impression eldar's god of war was dead, killed by the nightbringer, it seems the old ones had reputation of creating races to fight of Necrons and then the races worshipping gods, and through worshop made those gods exist.
But a Avatar has a bit of Kharne armour it it or something.

Seems like you have it backwards: Khaine killed the Nightbringer. But I'm a little confused as to whether the Eldar War in Heaven is the same as the Necrontyr battling the Old Ones--in which case, are the Old Ones remembered by the Eldar in their mythology as the gods?

Dreadwinter wrote:Two others still kicking it. Presumably.

Asuryan and Isha, right?

**Dreadwinter**

Asuryan bit it, or got bit by Slaanesh rather.

I believe the other is the Laughing God, dunno his name.

**Emperors Faithful**

In the back of the Deamon Codex there is fluff to support the story that nurgle saved Isha, and imprisoned her and poisons her and stuff in a wierd display of love.
Nurgle creates the diseases and unleashes them upon the universe, and Isha (while his back is turned) whispers the cures.

**Frazzled**

Manchu wrote:Maybe so. But remember when the Emperor was the conglomerated souls of thousands of reincarnating psykers?

In old fluff Gork and Mork were sentient chaos powers akin to the usual Ruinous Powers. However, such is the might of the ork race, that they are leviathans in the warp. There are small descriptions of Khorne tassling with Mork (or Gork) and getting stomped almost as an afterthought. The only equal in warpspace to Gork, is Mork.
It makes sense. They are the most populous species in the galaxy, have warp signatures, are are all about a few specific emotions, and are united in the waugh.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Emperors Faithful wrote:In the back of the Deamon Codex there is fluff to support the story that nurgle saved Isha, and imprisoned her and poisons her and stuff in a wierd display of love.
Nurgle creates the diseases and unleashes them upon the universe, and Isha (while his back is turned) whispers the cures.

Indeed that warp entity still lives, as does the laughing god in the webway. Khaine survives in pieces. There is an argument that the umbra (sp) are also pieces of former eldar warp entities. of course Slaanesh IS THE Eldar god, they just don't want to admit it-yikes!

**Uberman7788**

Well IIRC the Eldar created the chaos gods (Opened the Eye of Terror basically, but by accident) to fight the necrons, but when Slaanesh was born it opened the Eye of Terror and every planet turned into something controlled by a chaos god.

And they FEED off emotions, not are created by them. So, it wouldn't destroy a part of humanity. The Emperor's main goal was to erase Horus, so his attack had so much power not only did it kill Horus, but it destroyed his soul from the warp.

And If you unplug the Emperor, not only will millions die, but the Emperor would be reborn and end the 40K series by killing Chaos as a star child from inside the warp.

**Cheese Elemental**

Uberman7788 wrote:Well IIRC the Eldar created the chaos gods (Opened the Eye of Terror basically, but by accident) to fight the necrons, but when Slaanesh was born it opened the Eye of Terror and every planet turned into something controlled by a chaos god.

Wrong. The Warp existed since the time of the Old Ones, but the Eldar never created the Chaos Gods. They had their own pantheon, including Khaine, Isha, Vaul, and others whos names escape me.

Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle were created by humanity, in that order. Khorne was born from mankind's wars and the inherent bloodthirsty nature of ancient civilisations, Tzeentch was created as mankind discovered all these new things and the first true nations began to form from the roiling chaos of the world, and Nurgle was created during the Black Plague of the medival era, when something like 1/3 of Europe's population died, and the later plagues like Cholera and Spanish Flu helped establish his godhood.

Slaanesh wasn't created until the 29th millenium, when the Eldar sank into such decadence and depravity that Slaanesh formed in the Warp and ripped out most of their souls, creating the Eye of Terror.

**Manchu**

Frazzled wrote:It makes sense. They are the most populous species in the galaxy, have warp signatures, are are all about a few specific emotions, and are united in the waugh.

Bah. "If the orks ever got together they'd totally kill everything else." If the Tyranid don't first. That is, if the Necrons don't beat them both to it. Once again, every race is super duper awesome according to its own Codex. The older the Codex, the more their overkill fluff doesn't make sense

So basically, Gork and Mork are an early example of giving the kids fodder for saying "Nuh uh! My orks are better than your Space Marines!" Do they even appear in the most recent Codex?

But thanks anyway, Frazzled, for the cogent response.

**Frazzled**

Its old fluff that has not been controverted to date. Respectfully, I did not say orks would kill everything else. I said they were the most populous (sentient) species in the galaxy. This statement has been made throughout 40K's history.

Nids don't make warp entities
Necrons don't have a warp presence of any concern.
Neither of you statements mitigate my earlier statements.

**Manchu**

Frazzled wrote:Neither of you statements mitigate my earlier statements.

They weren't intended to. Because I agree with the logic you suggested.

What I was trying to point out is that Gork and Mork are a good example of how GW provides the means for allowing the fans to claim that each faction is somehow undefeatable. In fact, Gork and Mork go way overboard. Hence my suspicion that they are not mentioned (at least not significantly) in the new Codex.

**Frazzled**

I'd dispute that (in this avenue only). Eldar Gods are not represented in this manner. Khaine gets the crapola kicked out of him as a literal tug of war plaything between Slaanesh and Khorne.

But it is really old fluff, and GW has moved away from other warp powers discussions (except to mention this eldar god was smacked around by such and such other power-eldar have become the new guard in many ways). Do orks even have psychic powers in the current codex?

**Dreadwinter**

Also, there is a rumor that there is another Eldar God brewing within the craftworlds.

Ynnead the Eldar god of death.

**greenskin lynn**

checked the codex, ork gods are mentioned on page 15

""Gork and Mork are divine powerhouses, deities so strong they are never truely defeated. They simply shrug off the attacks of other gods with a raucous laugh."

**Manchu**

greenskin lynn wrote:checked the codex, ork gods are mentioned on page 15

""Gork and Mork are divine powerhouses, deities so strong they are never truely defeated. They simply shrug off the attacks of other gods with a raucous laugh."

Gratias tibi! Now the question is why the orks are defeated so often . . .

**greenskin lynn**

cause they wasn't orky enough maybe

**Orkeosaurus**

Orks are never defeated.

When they win, they're winners, when they die, they're dead so they can't be losers, and when they run away they can always come back for another go.

**Manchu**

Orkeosaurus wrote:Orks are never defeated.

When they win, they're winners, when they die, they're dead so they can't be losers, and when they run away they can always come back for another go.

I think there's a lot of valuable insight into Ork psychology here.

**Orkeosaurus**

Here's what I could find on Gork n' Mork:

Codex: Orks, p15 wrote:The Orks are a powerful force in the universe. A highly successful race, they seem to be able to expand and prosper effortlessly in comparison to the other civilizations who struggle even for simple survival. The Ork character traits have a reflection in the immaterial dimension of the Warp just like the traits and emotions of Humanity and the Eldar. These traits are made manifest in the belligerent Ork gods known as Gork and Mork. The Orks say that Gork is brutal but kunnin', and Mork is kunnin' but brutal.

Gork and Mork are divine powerhouses, deities so strong they are never truly defeated. They simply shrug off the attacks of other gods with a raucous laugh.

And a good one for the relation between Orks and Chaos, which I think is from Waaagh! Da Orks (not sure though...):

Possibly Waaagh! Da Orks wrote:There is no predilection for Chaos among the Orks; indeed, Orks are much less likely to turn to Chaos than Humans or other races. This is due to the fact that the Ork race is relatively stable and content. There is little psychic stress or angst among the Orks, which leaves virtually no avenue through which Chaos can invade their minds. Some races confuse Orks as being evil and thus synonymous with Chaos. This is a misunderstanding on their part, however.
Orks are not inherently evil; neither is Chaos. Likewise, Orks do not naturally or consistently affiliate with the forces of Chaos. Orks simply live by the crude survival-of-the fittest principles that pervade the universe. Warlike civilizations, such as that of the Orks, simply reflect these survivalist principles all the more. By the same token, Chaos is neither good nor evil; it simply mirrors the survivalist emotions of intelligent beings in the real universe. Thus, predatory powers of Chaos, be they deities or daemons, exist because living things generate these emotions.
By analogy, there are gargantuan Ork powers in the warp -powers that are the reflections of the Orks' cheerfully irresponsible and warlike nature. At the same time, it is possible for Orks to overindulge their taste for militarism and bloodshed, which will ultimately lead them to Khorne. Indeed, Khorne does feed on these aspects of Orkish character; this shows in the very face of Khorne, which has markedly Orkish aspects.
Most of their enemies would agree that Orks lack many of the finer qualities found in the various races of the universe. Not surprisingly, Orks have no second thoughts about fighting alongside servants of Chaos, especially in return for pay or loot. Orks are not easily impressed by Chaos, since a typical Ork raider is likely to be exposed to manifestations of Chaos as he rampages about the less orderly parts of the galaxy. He is also less liable to be tempted by lure of Chaos power and sell his soul than many other races. This is in contrast to the unfortunate Humans who live in ratholes of hive worlds or desperately trying to build civilizations in inhospitable environments. These suffer from the stress of day-to-day survival. They become suspicious of the unknown and begin to look inwardly to find irrational explanations for their problems and misfortunes.