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Kirasu wrote:

fullheadofhair wrote:

Kirasu wrote:

It would be nice to have an electronic tabletop version of 40k. However, it's fairly inimical to their business model, unless they make you buy "virtual" minis...and who is willing to do that?

People do this for MTG online.. When they buy cards online they can just trade them in for the real version if they want.. GW could do something like that as well

But they wont because I dont think GW really cares about the gaming aspect in all honesty

omg, who has let the crazies come out to play today. This is about the 4th pro-GW post I have had to make today because people are talking pure unadulterated tinfoil hat wearing bollocks.

Of-course they care about the gaming aspect you dumbass - the rules generate mini sales, mini sales are where they make their money. The product is not perfect by any stretch of the word but it is functional and has a mass appeal - they care, of course they do, it is the golden calf. However, caring and having the ability to construct a decent enough rule set where I will actually play 40k may not necessarily by the same thing.

Lol? How about you add something to the conversation instead of personal attacks and insults?

We all have opinions.. Learn to live with other peoples

Everyone has opinions - but some opinions are so divorced from reality that they are worthless and contribute zero to a discussion. You seriously believe that GW doesn't care about gaming? Have you been to the HQ offices in US & UK (not show room - offices in back) - it is full of half built models, paints at desk and artwork and gaming heritage all over the place, unless it has change in the 5yrs plus since I was last there. The fact that all their products are gaming related does not give you a hint that they may care just a smidge about gaming. You know, models, rule sets gaming accessories & profit. Don't confuse stupidity with lack of care. Famous saying, "don't put done to malice what can easily be put don't to ignorance". Not everything is a GW anti-gaming conspiracy.

Your comment is so typical of the anti-GW hyperbole that floats around this forum that it invalidates what is being said when GW is being nailed for their stupidity as threads descend into "the world is ending I will never game again" or some such varient.

The dumbass comment was un-necessary. I apologize for that, it was rudeness born out of frustration. You did however deserve the tinfoil hat wearing comment.

Now stop making me post supportive GW things - it isn't good for my blood pressure.

insaniak wrote:

Whatever this game was doing, if GW have a legal obligation to preserve THQ's investment, then they have to shut it down.

Surely they would have taken Fumbbl and JavaBB down as well, then?

ChrisAsmadi wrote:

insaniak wrote:

Whatever this game was doing, if GW have a legal obligation to preserve THQ's investment, then they have to shut it down.

Surely they would have taken Fumbbl and JavaBB down as well, then?

Not necessarily - I have no doubt that their license agreements are many and varied, and that the 40k IP video game license is separate from the Bloodbowl license. (Given that the Blood Bowl video game is being released by someone other than THQ, it would pretty much have to be.)

To all the doom and gloomers...

Why does it matter so much?
Know you can go out a play real 40k.

garret wrote:Why does it matter so much?
Know you can go out a play real 40k.

facepalm.jpg

Y'KNOW WHY NOT INSTAED OF JUST PUTTING DOWN FACEPALM PICTURES YOU TELL ME YOURSELF

RogueMarket wrote:Heh - yes vassal - could potentially hurt GW sales.


or maybe they want you to play DOW2 instead!

WHAAAAA?

No way. I do not believe you... There is no possible smidgen of possibility that some chart told some guy that if vassal was around they would lose the sales of around 500$ of stuff. NOT POSSIBLE.

"Wrex puts his fingers into his ears and commences to sing the star spangled banner"

garret wrote:Why does it matter so much?
Know you can go out a play real 40k.

Yes... after driving my box of plastic toys on a round trip to the store costing me a grand total of... drumroll, 10$ per trip... the lack of logic here is mind-blowing.

I actually played vassal so I could test out my armies and pick the best list for my preferred playing style. I had to deal with cheaters, smack-talkers, and all the other nonsense involved in playing in a public store, but I could learn from it FOR FREE.

If GW just wanted me to be a dumb consumer they should just send me spam-mail and snail-mail spam (copyrighted by the KING! of spam).

The funny thing is that Vassal was one of the best ways to prepare for a tournament, and we all now how GW likes you to blindly spend on "the best" new stuff for that HUGE (sorry, MASSIVE) tournament they sponsor... just don't play at their stores.

"Note"
I would like to sincerely thank the Vassal40k team for the fantastic job they did in providing this program free of charge, simply lovely!

THANKS VASSAL40K TEAM

garret wrote:Y'KNOW WHY NOT INSTAED OF JUST PUTTING DOWN FACEPALM PICTURES YOU TELL ME YOURSELF

I got a better idea - read the thread. You'll see people were using Vassal to test out units before they bought them. "Just play 40K" is a line so devoid of logic that it makes my knuckles hurt.

Comparing Vassal to piracy is like comparing apples to orangutans.

A more appropriate comparison is Vassal to concert bootlegs. You know who downloads and distributes concert bootlegs? People who love the frickin' band. People who already own all of the CDs and have been to see the band in concert and have already bought the t-shirt.

A long time ago, bands stopped giving a sht whether or not their fans traded bootlegs. Why? Because concert bootlegs make people want to go to concerts more, not less.

Proven fact. I can cite you sources, if you really want me to.

The vast majority of Vassal users already own armies and already play 40k all the time.

Seeing as I just figured out it's perfectly possible to continue to use Vassal40k even after it has been "closed," I say with all due respect (which is not very much), "Go eff yourself, GW. The army I've been testing out on Vassal that I was going to purchase over the next year, you just lost that sale. The sale that, you know, Vassal was actually HELPING YOU MAKE. Might not be much money to you, but it's money you won't be getting until you learn to treat your customers better."

*shrug*

xtapl wrote:Seeing as I just figured out it's perfectly possible to continue to use Vassal40k even after it has been "closed," I say with all due respect (which is not very much), "Go eff yourself, GW. The army I've been testing out on Vassal that I was going to purchase over the next year, you just lost that sale. The sale that, you know, Vassal was actually HELPING YOU MAKE. Might not be much money to you, but it's money you won't be getting until you learn to treat your customers better."

As has been pointed out multiple times in this thread, there are a fair number of possible and legitimate reasons why GW would be obligated to shut down such a program. And yes - odds are that, for example, THQ's licensing fees are worth more than your canceling a planned purchase.

There are a number of reasons to dislike some of GW's business practices. Them defending their IP and/or complying with their contractual obligations really isn't one of them.

Janthkin wrote:

xtapl wrote:Seeing as I just figured out it's perfectly possible to continue to use Vassal40k even after it has been "closed," I say with all due respect (which is not very much), "Go eff yourself, GW. The army I've been testing out on Vassal that I was going to purchase over the next year, you just lost that sale. The sale that, you know, Vassal was actually HELPING YOU MAKE. Might not be much money to you, but it's money you won't be getting until you learn to treat your customers better."

As has been pointed out multiple times in this thread, there are a fair number of possible and legitimate reasons why GW would be obligated to shut down such a program. And yes - odds are that, for example, THQ's licensing fees are worth more than your canceling a planned purchase.

There are a number of reasons to dislike some of GW's business practices. Them defending their IP and/or complying with their contractual obligations really isn't one of them.

Not one apple but a bushel, perhaps less in itself than the license, but with a message that GW could benefit from.

"Note"
Would saying soup Nazi be Godwin's law in action? Or would soup Nazi in itself be societies Godwin's law in action?

Wrexasaur wrote:

Janthkin wrote:

xtapl wrote:Seeing as I just figured out it's perfectly possible to continue to use Vassal40k even after it has been "closed," I say with all due respect (which is not very much), "Go eff yourself, GW. The army I've been testing out on Vassal that I was going to purchase over the next year, you just lost that sale. The sale that, you know, Vassal was actually HELPING YOU MAKE. Might not be much money to you, but it's money you won't be getting until you learn to treat your customers better."

As has been pointed out multiple times in this thread, there are a fair number of possible and legitimate reasons why GW would be obligated to shut down such a program. And yes - odds are that, for example, THQ's licensing fees are worth more than your canceling a planned purchase.

There are a number of reasons to dislike some of GW's business practices. Them defending their IP and/or complying with their contractual obligations really isn't one of them.

Not one apple but a bushel, perhaps less in itself than the license, but with a message that GW could benefit from.

"Note"
Would saying soup Nazi be Godwin's law in action? Or would soup Nazi in itself be societies Godwin's law in action?

Did some say nazi??

Hello Godwin!

Its a shame because most people that I knew who used it used it just to play more games, and they were extensive modelers. They made me get it so that I could learn to play, and try to convince me to get into modeling (i'm a stingy person). They've succeeded in doing so.

When I went on Vassal40k's forum a lot of people were asking for apoc stuff to be added. Reason being, the units are expensive and they wanted to TEST them before they bought them. Most of the users have armies. Most people that don't model 40k stuff won't care about vassal enough to get it.

It simply is a shame. But oh well. As some bloke already said, if they're doing it to produce their own kind of this, then they're smart. If they aren't, then they are making a bad move.

Honestly... if I were them, I'd hire the bloke and buy the product then start charging for it. Make it more official and such.

Oshova wrote:There's nothing to stop you being able to use it, just without the updates you won't be able to have any cool new miniatures that GW bring out.

Just use counts-as models. I do it all the time with House Rule codexes. Vassal would only really be screwed if GW revamped something universal, like the vehicle damage table etc- so it's great that this happened after 5th ed was released.

I'm surprised to hear that other model companies don't have this mindset. I thought GW's 'profit Space Marine models first, gaming community second' style was just an old-fashioned roots thing.

garret wrote:Why does it matter so much?
Know you can go out a play real 40k.

1.You can play with people who aren't in your town

2. You can test out codexes before buying them

3. You can play in the comfort of your own home, with music and anything else you care to do.

4. The 'great on paper, slowed in practice' line-of-sight rule doesn't apply.

An online system based on a copyrighted IP where users could, without ever buying models, download PDF versions of the rules, utilize digital versions of the models, and play full mock versions of the game totally unliscenced.


Vassal could very easily have or in the future hurt games workshops sales as it totally subverts the methods by which games workshop makes money. By what I know of the community its played largely by ex 40k players who either don't have the time or money to invest in the actual game or simply don't care too (the pdf/chatroom format is a pretty big dip into a lot of pen and paper profits too).

Is it really that boo hiss surprising that games workshop would move to end something like this? I mean really, how could this not have been seen coming a mile away?

What is MegaMek?

It's a complete translation of BattleTech on the computer, playable against bots and multiplayer across the interwebs. It uses images and IP from BTech and is completely unofficial and free.

Why am I talking about MegaMek?

Because they haven't been shut down by the owners of the BTech IP. In fact, they have their own subforum at the official-fething-site.

And there's the difference. One company supports its players, wants the best for them and works with them to create new playing opportunities.

The other is GW.

Isn't battletech as a game system struggling to even float in a way thats market profitable? I mean other than having changed hands several times and having its intellectual rights bandied about by multiple companies failing to really capitalize on it (the new mechwarrior better come out and be awesome) its not a particularly new or interesting property by todays standards. They likely see megamek as a form of easy advertising and refuse to have it taken down as it drums up veteran community support and keeps people interested (nothing kills a game quite like disinterest brought on by disparate updates and a seeming lack of available support).

If the shoe was on the other foot I have no doubt that games workshop would be happy to "support" vassal and battletech would be happy to "crush" megamek. Its all depends on the market viability of the action itself.

ShumaGorath wrote:
Is it really that boo hiss surprising that games workshop would move to end something like this?

No it's not surprising, but the 'boo hiss' comes from GW having a kind of 'The Man' feeling that other games companies don't seem to have in the same way. Particularly in the way that it's a model company before a games company.

Shut down Vassal

???

Profit.

I think its true anything that helps you fine tune an army will decrease sales..

Its too bad I hate to see Vassal go, it has provided me with incentive to actually pickup another army (since I could be sure what I was buying wasn't crap in play). If anything it spurred better play, more patience for those less familiar with the game and was a great way to help get others involved as they could run a game without the heavy investment (which would come once they found an army that suited their style).

Sad to see it go, great while it lasted. I wish GW had enough forsight to invest in this type of application, instead of crippling its use.

The only way i would be mad if vassel was closing if i paid for it. It was fun for free but im not mad.

Never mind. Not worth arguing.

Years ago on the old EoT forums I suggested that GW should playtest their unit designs for balance using an automatic computer program (i.e. a game.) But one of their staff -- can't remember who -- made some comment about it being easy to say but hard to do.

Hmm...I really haven't been on Dakka since the ownership change? Wow. *reregisters*

Anyhoo, the way I see it is:
Vassal40K's servers are hosted by Vassal. They will not go down.
Vassal has an in-built module/addon editor. New units can still be added (relatively easily too, only the new graphics would present a problem)
The files are hosted on Mediafire. They're also available through torrents and just plain old email, so new players can be brought in.

GW has succeeded in shutting down a single site, and halted ongoing contributions by a single person who has already said he was going to stop soon anyway, so well done GW! aside from making it moderately more difficult to get new players into Vassal40K, your actions have only sped up what was going to occur anyway. Pat yourselves on the back.

Honestly, I really don't see what the fuss is about.

xtapl wrote:Oh, GW. How many different ways are you going to tie that noose before you finally go ahead and stick your neck in it?

Shut down your own feedback forum.
Redesign your website so it has very little relevant information and is basically one big shopping catalog.
Shut down internet sales.
Redesign White Dwarf so that it's useless.
Keep increasing the price.
Shut down eBay sales.
Shut down Vassal.
Raise trade prices on internet distributors.

You forgot the whole Damnatus debacle.

^^^^^^
what he said, yes the site will be closing down, but you can still play it, and I am sure it will still get updated, you will just have to know where to look.

A few years ago I remember reading another forum regarding another company, trying to protect it's IP in a similar manner. A gamer/lawyer broke it down for the very few who would ignore the bandwagon and try to learn something 'real-world'.

For the life of me I wish I could recall where, but the bottom line was as follows.

A company whose foundation is built upon it's IPs like GW would be well served to protect it's IP (aka it's lifeblood). Not protecting its IP, over the course of time could cause the IP to become 'public domain'.
Look at the earlier posted example of the Tolkein estate going after TSR over 'orcs'. On the surface (the earlier post), it appears as though the folks at TSR were able to demonstrate the repeated use of the term by other sources that were not challenged by the Tolkein estate holders.
If we were to re-write history and all of those other authors had licensed 'orcs' from Tolkein, then TSR would have had some issues.

As it is, my father still games with an original TSR employee and former VP. He probably remembers. I'll ask someday.

So if this legal information is correct, and GW were to let their IP slide into public domain, all kinds of publishers would show up and start putting out their own materiels for the game (unlike the licensed stuff from FFG) and GW is left with nothing of their own.

Licensing has it's plusses and minuses, but either way - GW as a company has a responsibility to it's customers and it's employees. They may not always get it all right, but from my personal observations, how many game companies have disappeared in the past ten years?

Not GW.


As for me, I have not yet tried Vassal40k yet. I had heard of it on 40k radio I believe. I'll be checking it out as soon as I am able.
Unfotunately bandwidth in Iraq is a rare and precious thing... just like miniatures.

Really this is all talk. Despite GW being the "Great Satan" of the gaming world you're all gonna keep buying their stuff aren't ya?

I suppose they may be overreacting to Vassal a bit (Incidentally I only found it via a "Vassal is going!" thread) but like everyone else has said they've gotta guard their IP with their lives otherwise they're just another toy company. And you know what happens when people your (and my) age are found playing with little plastic toys don't you?

Yeah, I keep buying their stuff: used, from the FLGS or eBay.

Yeah same here, save a fortune on RRP. I get 'em off TradeMe which is like New Zealand ebay.

Much cheaper and pre built and painted! whats not to love!?!

MMM it does seem to be a bad move on GW's half. It is in no way a replacement for the product they offer, just as army builder is in no way a replacement for the codecies.
They were essentially getting free advertising and perhaps a happier customer as they can try out new units before purchasing and seeing how they synergise with their current list. And a happy customer is more likely to make purchases in the future.

Madgod wrote:Yeah same here, save a fortune on RRP. I get 'em off TradeMe which is like New Zealand ebay.

Much cheaper and pre built and painted! whats not to love!?!

But you miss out on the joy of painting and modelling

Yeah but I save money and lets be honest in 20 years time which will you want more? Memories or a lump sum?

Plus I'm a fail painter so it's probly best that way.

Finally you're prolly way richer than me so you can afford paints, glue, brushes and RRP while some of us are on a shoestring.