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Fishboy wrote:
I drive 45 mins in my fantasy land to support a store, and actually try to visit several stores to spread the love.

I 'm happy for you.

Doesn't change my original point: I as a consumer will choose who I wish to support and how I chose to spend my money.

I am not obligated to support any lgs, especially those that don't meet my needs or are subpar in some way.

My online retailer of choice treats me very well cost-wise, is rarely out of stock on anything I need, and puts the product on my doorstep next day.

On top of that I don't utilize any store's gaming space as I have my own gaming space and club.

When someone opens a store locally that offers a better price or quicker ship time I'll be happy to buy from them...

Fishboy wrote:

My best friend is in the process of opening a store in the midwest. He specifically asked about their pricing based on in store services (painting area, classes, tables,etc.). He was told that is only in Europe. When he asked if they controlled discounting, he was told he could sell their product for any price he wanted. when he asked about online sales he was told the U.S.A. policy is you are not allowed to sell online AT ALL.

Here is a big problem with GW. If you call their sales staff and get a different rep they will all have different answers, kinda like the old rules lawyers thing. I have a few freinds that have started different stores and 2 years ago when they started the teir system was still there. Your level of retailer depended on how much you had in stock more than anything else. Problem was you had to have a starter section which included LOTR which does not do well in this area hehe.

Mostly correct. The part about online selling is that you cannot have an online shopping cart. This limits most stores to not selling online, but it is still possible to run adds online, and take orders by email and by phone, as Warstore and several others do.

The difference in the North America and European terms of sale is confusing: Europe has a tiered system now, that is based on what services you offer, and it affects the discount you buy at. North America has the same discount for all accounts, (45%). They have a tiered structure for GW support.

- Standard account: No support, free shipping at 400.00 (Pretty much standard in the game industry from any distributor. Amount for free shipping varies some)

-Stockist account: Carry the best selling plastic boxes and core sets. Free shipping, no minimum. Advertising in WD, and 600.00 a year in support for events.


-Partnership account: Carry most everything, have tables, run events, etc. Recieve copies of new codices, access to the preview models in black boxes, free advertising, 1800.00 per year in support.

I used to buy from an internet store that allowed you to pick up the product at the owners' home, which happened to be in my hometown. So no shipping costs.

They used to sell 40K at a great discount (Imo). For example the Troops boxes cost 21,50 Euro instead of 30,-, the 20,- boxes cost 14, -, and a Baneblade 65,- instead of 95,-.

After the changes GW made for internet sellers without a brick and mortar store they can now only offer a 10% discount, which isn't really worth it for me any more because I usually do not but in large quantities. Plus they moved to another city.

So GW sure ruined a good situation for me

TBD wrote:I used to buy from an internet store that allowed you to pick up the product at the owners' home, which happened to be in my hometown. So no shipping costs.

They used to sell 40K at a great discount (Imo). For example the Troops boxes cost 21,50 Euro instead of 30,-, the 20,- boxes cost 14, -, and a Baneblade 65,- instead of 95,-.

After the changes GW made for internet sellers without a brick and mortar store they can now only offer a 10% discount, which isn't really worth it for me any more because I usually do not but in large quantities. Plus they moved to another city.

So GW sure ruined a good situation for me

Wargame Specialist?

The sad truth to all of this is that GW probably isn't evil, or malicious or even really clever (probably.) The company heads are merely ignorant of how markets and economics in general work.

It is extremely difficult to control distribution of products once they leave your company. Every store who thinks they can sell a few more boxes by offering 5% off the other guy's prices online will do so. Remove their ability to have a shopping cart, and they will put in an "additional items box" or a call in service. Disallow eBay? Shell companies start popping up. What we can see easily is that consumers and sellers both find remarkably clever ways to get around restrictions. As my friend Dan put it "That's what I like about humans: they have a way of making sh!t work."

However, more important is what we don't see. We don't see all the boxes and blisters that are not sold because some guy that would have started an IG army at 400$ for everything decided not to when it would cost 575$. Or the baneblade that doesn't get sold because 100$ at the local store is too much money for a model that will be used once a month. GW can't see the secondary armies that people almost built on a whim because they thought howling banshees were cool, but didn't because they couldn't easily get the models online without paying GW's stupidly expensive shipping on top of their dictated retail rates?

GW seems to be missing out on these concepts, which is not a shame limited to their company heads. Many companies such as Apple, and many politicians, have made the same mistakes, but not many companies come away from that error healthily without creating the iPod or something similar.

Wehrkind,
I think what GW does see is the need in most cases for an actual store to drive sales. In most cases (except CT apparently) GW product does not sell itself. It requires interaction and support that you can not get from an online store leaving the hobby starving for new blood. People need to see it get played in order to get interested which is why as outriders, Kommandos, and just people that like the hobby we spent a lot of time running intro games, demo's, and lending armies to new blood to get them interested. Those are the stores that are successful and have less stock stagnating on the shelves for years. This is probably where CT Gamers mention of the LGS is probably failing. Show the game and not just the models to get people interested...

Wehrkind wrote:The sad truth to all of this is that GW probably isn't evil, or malicious or even really clever (probably.) The company heads are merely ignorant of how markets and economics in general work.

That is completely false. GW is perfectly aware that reduced sales requires a higher price to generate the same revenue and profit.

Fishboy, you make a basic error I am afraid. If the models didn't sell quite briskly on the internet, GW wouldn't care.

Also it is worth noting that shops don't sell games nearly so well as friends/family. (They also don't sell ideas as well as videogames or books or whatever.) I would be willing to bet a vast sum of money that far more players got into the wargamming hobby in general or into 40k game in particular by being introduced through friends and family than by stores.

Very few people wander into a store and decide that this game, completely different than every other board game they have played, with a rule book that runs more than most complete board games in general, requiring even more vastly expensive models to play, on top of that requiring either lots of space at home or a way to travel to a shop in order to spend hours painting and modeling before you get to spend hours playing a single game (all at the same time no less). For an example of how foriegn this is to people, try explaining 40k to 5 or 10 people at work, and pay attention to how hard it is to really grasp what you are talking about. Assuming you don't work in a game store, that is.

People get into wargaming through other things. Video games, RPGs, serious board games (Twilight Imperium, Settlers etc.) or friends showing them. The initial investment is just too far beyond what most people will try out. GW's failure lies in the fact that the more product there is out there in people's hands, the more likely it is that they will get others into the game.

The models sell on the internet because there is already and interest in them, not due to any marketing strategy.

While I will agree that friends/family do get many people into the hobby I personally have brought many people into the hobby at stores that are just walk ins. Your point of talking to co-workers is exactly correct but your off base about people walking into the store. The key to the store is in MOST cases the people already know what type of store they are walking into. That takes care of half of your overcoming objections. When they see people playing and ask a question about the game....voila....they are half sold.

Think about it...your buds did not start playing just because you play (although I am sure we would all like to have that kind of power over our friends hehe). You introduced them to it and they thought it was cool because of models, fluff, etc... You were the connecting point just like the brick and mortor store is if it has good foot traffic. The brick and mortor store however should see more numbers than you have freinds.

If we all buy online then those stores go away, great events those stores host go away, clubs disapear, and market share drops for GW. GW's marketing concepts in most cases are extrememly flawed, however the ideal of real stores is very sound. Internet sales as a base of total or majority sales is a short term goal.

Fishboy wrote:

If we all buy online then those stores go away, great events those stores host go away, clubs disapear, and market share drops for GW. GW's marketing concepts in most cases are extrememly flawed, however the ideal of real stores is very sound. Internet sales as a base of total or majority sales is a short term goal.

The traditional (non- electronic)Gaming stores are as a whole are a failing and antiquated business model. More stores come and go then stay open and prosper. Internet sales will eclipse and outlive gaming stores no matter how some try to fight it...

That is more due to poor buisness models than anything else. Those stores can not base themselves on just one or two games systems. I have seen my share of stores come and go but the sucessful ones diversify. Right now the card gamers are what keep the majority of the stores open.

@Wehrkind

I would be willing to bet an equally large amount of money against you. I've seen first hand that there are more people who walk into a store having never seen it before and get an intro game and get into the hobby, than those who have been told by their friends . . . but ofcourse this also gets new blood in. GW works best by word of mouth advertising, it's free, and spreads quickly when children are involved. Especially when they are given a free cool miniature that they painted themselves to go and show all their friends, who then go and get their free miniature, and a free game . . . and suddenly you have a new bunch of gamers for your store, they go through the army buying, making, painting, through the beginner schemes, and get involved in shop tourneys . . . it's an amazingly good scheme GW has going on.

BrookM wrote:Wargame Specialist?

Eternalwar

mikhaila wrote:

Fishboy wrote:

My best friend is in the process of opening a store in the midwest. He specifically asked about their pricing based on in store services (painting area, classes, tables,etc.). He was told that is only in Europe. When he asked if they controlled discounting, he was told he could sell their product for any price he wanted. when he asked about online sales he was told the U.S.A. policy is you are not allowed to sell online AT ALL.

Here is a big problem with GW. If you call their sales staff and get a different rep they will all have different answers, kinda like the old rules lawyers thing. I have a few freinds that have started different stores and 2 years ago when they started the teir system was still there. Your level of retailer depended on how much you had in stock more than anything else. Problem was you had to have a starter section which included LOTR which does not do well in this area hehe.

Mostly correct. The part about online selling is that you cannot have an online shopping cart. This limits most stores to not selling online, but it is still possible to run adds online, and take orders by email and by phone, as Warstore and several others do.

The difference in the North America and European terms of sale is confusing: Europe has a tiered system now, that is based on what services you offer, and it affects the discount you buy at. North America has the same discount for all accounts, (45%). They have a tiered structure for GW support.

- Standard account: No support, free shipping at 400.00 (Pretty much standard in the game industry from any distributor. Amount for free shipping varies some)

-Stockist account: Carry the best selling plastic boxes and core sets. Free shipping, no minimum. Advertising in WD, and 600.00 a year in support for events.


-Partnership account: Carry most everything, have tables, run events, etc. Recieve copies of new codices, access to the preview models in black boxes, free advertising, 1800.00 per year in support.

I just spoke with the NY Rep with Games Workshop yesterday about starting up with them mainly to do some online non shopping cart busniess and basically the guy Chris just laughed at me. He also explained to me that all new accounts are Stockists and never gave me a run down of Standard and Partnership. Mikhaila I know you run a B&M, so maybe you can answer his, how do you go about openning a Standard Account nowadays?

Fishboy wrote:The models sell on the internet because there is already and interest in them, not due to any marketing strategy.

While I will agree that friends/family do get many people into the hobby I personally have brought many people into the hobby at stores that are just walk ins. Your point of talking to co-workers is exactly correct but your off base about people walking into the store. The key to the store is in MOST cases the people already know what type of store they are walking into. That takes care of half of your overcoming objections. When they see people playing and ask a question about the game....voila....they are half sold.

Think about it...your buds did not start playing just because you play (although I am sure we would all like to have that kind of power over our friends hehe). You introduced them to it and they thought it was cool because of models, fluff, etc... You were the connecting point just like the brick and mortor store is if it has good foot traffic. The brick and mortor store however should see more numbers than you have freinds.

If we all buy online then those stores go away, great events those stores host go away, clubs disapear, and market share drops for GW. GW's marketing concepts in most cases are extrememly flawed, however the ideal of real stores is very sound. Internet sales as a base of total or majority sales is a short term goal.

There is a vast difference in marketing strategy between "Control the entire supply chain from production to customer, and sell at higher margin at low volume" and "Allow third parties to sell, making lower margins at much higher volume." There are successful applications for both, but probably more epic failures on the former.

Also, everyone I know got into wargamming because their friends or family members play. Perhaps that is due to coming from more rural Pennsylvania, as opposed to a larger city like Philly or London. I got into the hobby because one of my dad's friends at work played and knew my dad liked military history, and invited us over for their weekly gaming sessions in their basement. My buddy Dan plays because I got into 40k after playing DoW, and we got excited about the back ground.

I don't doubt that some people wander into the store and see what's going on and decide they want to play. However, games that require both large amounts of money and other players are less attractive than other forms of entertainment.
Young players are going to have a hard time justifying paying 50$ for a tank when that same money buys a PS3 game or whatever. Combine that with needing to find opponants, and you have a bit of an issue.
Brick and mortar stores have in the past been good for that, that being bringing new players without friends or family who played into the fold. However, there are new and better methods of this. Video games like Dawn of War do a good job introducing gamers to the ideas and products. Online forums like Dakka help people find players and learn about the game. Stores like the Warstore or Maelstrom games help distribute products.

There is also a strong distinction between GW company stores, independant retailers with B&M stores, and clubs.
There is no reason why clubs should cease to be. It is probably easier to run and keep clubs in an online space than by posting listings in game stores. Hosting locations might be difficult to come by, but that is currently a problem in any area that doesn't have a large store that is willing to give you tables. Clubs already rent spaces and such to solve this problem.
The big difference between GW and independant retailers (and the reason I think GW stores are dragging the company down) is that independant retailers CAN introduce players to new games and miniature lines, but GW stores can't.
The GW store only lives off of GW merchandise sales, requiring higher margin items as well as consistent sales. They do not benefit from any online sales, they do not sell Magic or Yugioh or whatever to help pay the rent, they do not get Warmachine players, or micro armor, or Flames of War, or the other bajillion game's players showing up to get models and going "Huh, that looks cool, I wonder what that is for?"
The independant store has none of those limitations. Mikhaila's store has all sorts of great models and games available to browse and try out (I spent 2 hours there last time I popped down, and my wife didn't even complain.) We saw board games we might want to try, I saw models I thought about buying, as well as different paints and games. I was there for GW stuff, but I just as easily could have been trying to buy Warmachine or D&D or Settlers of Catan, and gotten interested in 40k. That wouldn't be an option in a GW store.
Likewise indie stores can sell online and use that added traffic and customer base to keep a steady sales base with a higher volume than they could otherwise. Not all stores are doing this yet, but those that are are increasingly profitable despite sharp discounts.

It is the GW company B&M stores that I think are killing the company. They are too specialized and need very high margins to survive, two traits that are killers for most retailers since the advent of the internet. GW would do well to recognize that moving large volumes of models is more likely to help their bottom line than limiting their availability. Most consumer goods companies have recognized this, and left the question of how to get the product to the customer up to retailers and third parties, to much success.

Cthulhudreamt wrote:


I just spoke with the NY Rep with Games Workshop yesterday about starting up with them mainly to do some online non shopping cart busniess and basically the guy Chris just laughed at me. He also explained to me that all new accounts are Stockists and never gave me a run down of Standard and Partnership. Mikhaila I know you run a B&M, so maybe you can answer his, how do you go about openning a Standard Account nowadays?

Basically, you open an account with GW. Then, based on what criteria you meet, they can upgrade you to stockist, and then partnership. Most sales reps won't talk about the partnership level account to new stores, as it involves carrying nearly all their product, having gaming space, running events, and a few other criteria. Too much for a new store to bite off, although I have seen stores go to partnership quite quickly.

The stockist account level is very much a no brainer. You only have to carry the best selling items, and promise to restock as you sell. You get prize support, quarterly, advertising in WD, and bitz and pieces of other support. Most important, you get free shipping with no minimum.

A non-stockist level account is mostly for say, a small hobby shop that just wants a little rack of some GW stuff on the wall, and only orders sporadically throughout the year.

The most important thing to opening a GW account (in the US): You must have a brick and mortar location, in an area zoned commercial and meet other requirements that show you are a business. They won't let you open an account if you are online only.

-If someone does want to open an account with GW, the person to talk to is John Smith. John used to be my sales rep before they moved him over to handling new accounts. Call the main office in Glen Burnie, ask to talk to John. Probably a phone number or email on their website.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I'd like to take this opportunity to say that Maelstrom Games, a wonderful store in the UK, sells some of their items via eBay.

They also have a massive store with 70 tables, a bar and a restaraunt. It's the perfect place for a really awkward first date with the girl who agreed to go out with you out of pity.

Maelstrom Games - Huge discounts and beer. FETH YEAH!

First H.B.M.C.'s icon showed him to be in Oz. Now he is in the US, he is getting closer......
Are you emigrating to Maelstrom H' ?

Sometimes it shows up as the US - I'm not really sure why. Still in Oz.

Tauzor wrote:You cannot legaly prevent onward sales, GW might stop supplying people who they Identify as selling online. ( for what ever reason ... )

Who said sellers had to identify themselfs as the same people online as they buy from GW.

dont worry the sky will not fall down.

The GW sky has been falling for over a decade now. Seriously, it's been at least that long that people have been predicting GW's immnent demise. Ironicdote: 10 years ago went to a B&M in Myrtle Beach, SC. Guy was doing pretty well, decent store with plenty of product from other sources. Hardly seemed dependant on GW for rent money. Anyway, was firesalin all GW product as "the sky! it is fellin!!". So I bought, great deals. Anyway, went back there about 6 months ago. Store went out of business. GW remains. Not tryin to predict or crystal ball; just sharing an ironicdote.

CT GAMER wrote:

Fishboy wrote:

If we all buy online then those stores go away, great events those stores host go away, clubs disapear, and market share drops for GW. GW's marketing concepts in most cases are extrememly flawed, however the ideal of real stores is very sound. Internet sales as a base of total or majority sales is a short term goal.

The traditional (non- electronic)Gaming stores are as a whole are a failing and antiquated business model. More stores come and go then stay open and prosper. Internet sales will eclipse and outlive gaming stores no matter how some try to fight it...

With Vassal going going gone, it will be even harder to get games in at your FL online GS. Seriously, I have never lived in a city where there wasnt a gaming store with good terrain and good people (yes, I have been heinously blessed), so I do not imagine many people in the US running gaming groups out of their homes. Given my personal experience, I would call the demise of the B&M a Really Bad Thing. How many actually run groups out of their homes? Is that a lot more prevalent than I am thinking?

OK, I'll just take a guess here, but OSHOVA must either be a GW employee, or like me spends long hours at the GW paint bar. Because he's completely accurate.

GW gets people hyped... that is just what they intend to do. And that is because they know the psychology of the average wargamer. When we get excited, we buy things, even if it means we eat top ramen for a few weeks, at least we have the new FW Warboss on bike and accompanying Nobs!

Part of this means getting people started, and like smoking - it's best started at a young age. (j/k).
So a kid comes in looking around for the first time and somebody offers him a free mini (just like crack, the first one is free), and a demo game run by someone who gets really descriptive and intense about a meeting between Captain Sicarius and a band of Ork Boys!

So the kid is thinking, 'wow! that was so cool! I want to do this all of the time.'

And thus, a new gamer was born. One who will likely come back in, possibly with friends and will buy codexes and models and glue and primer and tools, etc.

I've seen it work so well, that last year just before Christmas, a mom came in and bought an AoBR for both of her sons, as well as codexes, a Tyranid Battle Force, some SM stuff and a Realm of Battle!
She explained that her kids had gone into another GW store and had their demo game, she just drove an hour to another one in 18" snow so they wouldn't see her buy this stuff!

I asked her to adopt me.

As for the thread topic, just poke around on TMP or other genereic wargaming sites - the FLGS is a dying breed. Internet sales takes a lot of potential business from them. And in my opinion GW relies on the word of mouth, and getting people excited, and you can't really hook a new person from in front of a computer as you do walking into a store with a life size Blood Angel standing out front.

I didn't think GWs had paint bars anymore.

GW gets people hyped... that is just what they intend to do. And that is because they know the psychology of the average wargamer. When we get excited, we buy things, even if it means we eat top ramen for a few weeks, at least we have the new FW Warboss on bike and accompanying Nobs!

Oh yeah, they love getting people hyped. They love it so much they won't tell gamers who paid to get into Games Day and their seminars a god-damned thing about upcoming releases or even what the next army after Space Wolves is. Or even what the Space Wolves release will entail. Or provide proof that they're even working on armies that people have requested info on for years and years.

Don't you have to, I dunno, tell people gak if you want to build hype? I know a brilliant way to create hype, post a picture of a portion of a finished DE sculpt on the website, like FW did with Hector Rex. Don't explain what it is or anything, just post a quarter of the model and let people wonder. Am I crazy or just stupid?

and a demo game run by someone who gets really descriptive and intense about a meeting between Captain Sicarius and a band of Ork Boys!

I don't see how that doesn't just scare people away, but then again it's kids we're talking about, so maybe they like that.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I'd like to take this opportunity to say that Maelstrom Games, a wonderful store in the UK, sells some of their items via eBay.

They also have a massive store with 70 tables, a bar and a restaraunt. It's the perfect place for a really awkward first date with the girl who agreed to go out with you out of pity.

Maelstrom Games - Huge discounts and beer. FETH YEAH!

Dear god, this place sounds like some kind of wonderland . I can understand the attempt to break down the ebay reseller market, I for one don't buy things online that I can get from local stores. It's bad form and doesn't support the businesses that I go to to find new players and fun games.