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hammerofulric wrote:The one thing I don't like is the marketing model. Each book escalates the power level, so you have to buy new stuff.

See, I don't get this. Some of the most effective armies can be made using only units from the first 2 books. Now, the upcoming mk2 rules may adjust the power levels (in a good way), but the fact remains. The problem is that playing the same limited army list for 5+ years can get really boring, so we buy more new stuff. No one "has" to, we want to. Also, the release model of PP, namely releasing something for every army through the years makes it look like they're forcing your hand (and wallet) more than GW's splash release model. But if PP did codex-style releases rather than buffet-style ones, there'd be less arguing about "having" to buy the new stuff because there simply wouldn't be as much new stuff to factor in.

Ghaz wrote:

Alpharius wrote:Wait, is that the two wrongs make a right argument?

No, it's the "GW's pricing is so whacked you can't use it for a comparison" argument

Touché!

And that good point is sad but true...

Moz wrote:Their plastic is closer to resin, so I'm betting that the spears will suffer bendy issues.

Heat with a hair dryer bend to shape then dunk in cold water.

And you will need super glue to put them together.

hammerofulric wrote:Personally, I prefer PP's sculpts, background and game. The one thing I don't like is the marketing model. Each book escalates the power level, so you have to buy new stuff.

Not true at all.

I regularly see people still running lists made up mostly of Prime models and winning bioth in casual and competitive play...

Heck most of my own lists are predominately made up of Prim/escalation models (by choice) and I'll confidently take on any list you wanna put together of fancy new toys.

It doesn't really matter if you have some fancy new toy because my old stuff is still as deadly as it was before and all those fancy toys you think are gonna up your power level are meaningless when your caster is on his/her back pushing up daisies...

malfred wrote:People don't tend to buy them unless they really want them.

Or they want to win games at competitive tournies. While people can be competitive with Prime-only models, PP has been at the forefront of codex creep. It's just that every faction gets the PSB-equivalent at the same time, so that somehow balances it.

PP makes a solid game and good minis, but it's a different style than 40k or LotR.

And if we want cheap, we should all be playing something at 10 or 15mm using cheap rules and whatever minis you want. Compare sci-fi 10mm to GW epic. Or some WW2 minis to Flames of War. There's cheaper models out there, but they're not the 'official' models, so we tend not to buy them.

I collect Trollblood, and I am very happy with these great sculpts.

What I am not so happy about is their scale: they are a head taller than Kriel Warriors, Champions, etc, and much more massive while they have weaker physical stats (even though they are also more heavily armoured). Someone made a size comparison picture at Privateer's site. They are almost as big as Trolls like Axers and Impalers.

Lately there seems to be one kind of quality control issue after the other every time Privateer releases new models. Some examples: the Cygnar Black 13th's scale was so small they looked like children compared to the rest of the miniatures, Epic Hoarluk has less toes than Prime Hoarluk, Molik Karn has too many fingers according to standard Privateer Cyclops anatomy, etc etc.

With Privateer's models I have sort of a love/hate relationship. I think 25% to 35% of their sculpt are fine/good/great, but the rest is either disappointing or flat out garbage. I'm mostly into that game for their larger/medium sized models. I think almost all of their current troops models are hideous. These plastics look very good, and with these they are definitely heading into the right direction, but yet there still is the scale issue. They seriously need to fix their lack of sufficient quality control if they ever want to compete with GW in the troops boxes department, because Imo GW is currently FAR superior when it come to plastic troops.

I also hate how the Retribution warjacks have these penis shaped heads and other dubious body parts. The armour of their main troops also looks like crap Imo. It's a shame because I had high hopes for that army, but 65% of the sculpts ruined it again for me.

whitedragon wrote:

Moz wrote:That and I think less PP fans have the 'hate it but still buy it' mentality.

And GW fans don't?

C'mon man.

I'll stand by this. And it's not necessarily because GW is evil/worse game/any other flame bait. But because GW is the market leader by far, and has been around for a very long time. So the average player playing GW products is more likely to be entrenched in the game. GW also sets the prices we come to expect, and GW is quite possibly the only game that you have access to (with other players). So if GW releases 5 new plastic terminators for $50, a very vocal portion of the playerbase will decry this as bloody murder - and then buy them anyways. Either to keep current the Spehz murinz army that they've been collecting for 12 years, or because they want to play tabletop wargames and GW is the only game in town.

PP games on the other hand are more of an elective expense. If you're playing WM/H, it's probably because you want to be playing that instead of a competing GW product which is likely more available in your area. If you are playing something because you enjoy it, and not necessarily because you feel like there are no other choices available - expense of models becomes less of an issue. Less of an issue worth crying about anyways.

Beyond that we can get into the behaviors of the companies themselves, leading to the inevitable comparisons of GW customer behavior and Stockholm syndrome - but that's a flame contest for another post.

A friend of mine has a theory - that PP appeals more to people who tend towards the collectible gaming (clicks or cards) market. As a result, they expect to 'have to' buy the 'next big thing' to stay competitive in big tournies. Now, with PP the 'next big thing' might be a new solo or caster, which is a relatively minor investment for someone. With GW, the 'next big thing' is something like a unit of Nob Bikers or IG with PSB - both of which may require the player to buy a whole new (or nearly a whole) army.

With PP's release schedule, you could probably buy all the 'new' things for a faction on a budget of about $30-40 a month over the whole year. With GW's release schedule, you may drop $400 on a new army once or twice a year. If it's once a year, it's the same 'cost', but most people have an easier time finding $40 a month for a year than $400 once a year.

What they are doing is for MK2 next year

dietrich wrote:

malfred wrote:People don't tend to buy them unless they really want them.

......PP has been at the forefront of codex creep.......

LMAO...This is the funniest statement I have read on dakka in years. Have you actually played a PP game? or seen the codex's GW has put out over the last ten years?

You are all aware that these box sets are the full, maximum size you can field those units in, right? Not half a unit or a third of a unit or three fifths of a unit but a full unit.

Cyric036 wrote:

dietrich wrote:

malfred wrote:People don't tend to buy them unless they really want them.

......PP has been at the forefront of codex creep.......

LMAO...This is the funniest statement I have read on dakka in years. Have you actually played a PP game? or seen the codex's GW has put out over the last ten years?

Yes and yes. PP is just as bad as GW, it's just that since all four factions get updated at once, the balance is they all get some OTT wicked combo at the same time. How many Bane Knights and Tartarus did you see in the last few years? How many competitive builds included Bane Thralls? GW may have blazed the trail, but PP has quickly moved along it.

dietrich wrote:

Cyric036 wrote:

dietrich wrote:

malfred wrote:People don't tend to buy them unless they really want them.

......PP has been at the forefront of codex creep.......

LMAO...This is the funniest statement I have read on dakka in years. Have you actually played a PP game? or seen the codex's GW has put out over the last ten years?

Yes and yes. PP is just as bad as GW, it's just that since all four factions get updated at once, the balance is they all get some OTT wicked combo at the same time. How many Bane Knights and Tartarus did you see in the last few years? How many competitive builds included Bane Thralls? GW may have blazed the trail, but PP has quickly moved along it.

Players blaze that trail.

Too many players spend way too much time trying to prove their worth as human beings by crushing other people at games of toy soldiers. If thats your thing, good for you, enjoy, but that does not mean that every model/unit you have declared "useless" is indeed so...

Forums like this, the PP forums, etc. are filled with people who think you must find the ultimate distilled unstoppable list and that that is the only list to play. Fact is there are very few models/units in Wm that are useless. Just about every model/unit in Wm can be put to a use or comboed with something in some way to make it useful/dangerous. PP has done a pretty decent job of ensuring this for the most part. This doesn't stop the power gamers from still trying to convince everyone that only they know the right way to play faction x though, god bless them...

CT GAMER wrote:Too many players spend way too much time trying to prove their worth as human beings by crushing other people at games of toy soldiers. If thats your thing, good for you, enjoy, but that does not mean that every model/unit you have declared "useless" is indeed so...

You mean that crushing that 12 year old at the FLGS on Sunday doesn't prove my manhood?

Sorry, I'm in a grouchy mood this morning. Most of PP stuff is fine. A few things get through that seem way OTT (not like GW ever does that! ). The cavalry seemed to be a breaking point in Mk I.

dietrich wrote:
Yes and yes. PP is just as bad as GW, it's just that since all four factions get updated at once, the balance is they all get some OTT wicked combo at the same time. How many Bane Knights and Tartarus did you see in the last few years? How many competitive builds included Bane Thralls? GW may have blazed the trail, but PP has quickly moved along it.

See I don't think what PP does is codex creep, so it just may be a difference in perception. IMHO: Codex creep is when one army is improved by the updating of their codex, while everyone else remains static. PP updates everybody, I don't call that codex creep, I call that an attempt(not always successfully) at keeping balance across lists.

I think we can agree that with any new release(GW or PP) the point is to sell new models and the best way either company seems to do that is by making them appear a teensy, whinsy, slightly, superbly better (definition of 'better', is wide open though) than what was already out there. With a GW codex release its not about balance across the armies, its about selling models for the current army. With Privateer, at least its about selling models across all factions and theoretically, balance across the armies.

While your statement about the appearance of BK and Tart Spam is totally valid, an all Prime Cryx force is still a viable competitive list, its just harder to work with. (Granted then its usually some kind of McThrall spam)

When PP puts out their "Forces of Warmachine" books early next year, then PP will have codex creep, if only for six months or so.

dietrich wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:Too many players spend way too much time trying to prove their worth as human beings by crushing other people at games of toy soldiers. If thats your thing, good for you, enjoy, but that does not mean that every model/unit you have declared "useless" is indeed so...

You mean that crushing that 12 year old at the FLGS on Sunday doesn't prove my manhood?

During my apprenticeship with warmachine, I had the joy to face up against a 13 year old
Terminus player. I don't think him beating me at the time proved anything...

malfred wrote:

dietrich wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:Too many players spend way too much time trying to prove their worth as human beings by crushing other people at games of toy soldiers. If thats your thing, good for you, enjoy, but that does not mean that every model/unit you have declared "useless" is indeed so...

You mean that crushing that 12 year old at the FLGS on Sunday doesn't prove my manhood?

During my apprenticeship with warmachine, I had the joy to face up against a 13 year old
Terminus player. I don't think him beating me at the time proved anything...

Drawomancer wrote:You are all aware that these box sets are the full, maximum size you can field those units in, right? Not half a unit or a third of a unit or three fifths of a unit but a full unit.

So, just like a GW SM Tactical Squad?

You never are forced to buy everything.

You never need the newest unit.


Warspears are good - but not super omg godly.

They are just nice to have for legion.


But I'll tell you - legion can do VERY well without ;P


VERY WELL.


=)

There's been a bit of scale creep in the trollkin, and now in the blighted Orgun, but that seems to be mostly financial. Both were probably undersized in metal. Aren't marine Dreadnoughts as topheavy as warjacks?

As for the cost per model, PP is between 10 and 20% more expensive while needing 25% or so less models. So they're both bastards on a per model basis.

Its nice of PP to have moved to full sized units per box but my 40k armies are IG and Tyranids - I'm biased. Excuse me if I'm wrong but aren't tactical marines the *only* marine unit sold at full size?

Just a quick point. There are good points all around here on both sides, and everyone has pretty much proven that on a per model bases GW and PP are roughly the same price.

If we all agree with this, then that still means that Warmachine is more affordable than 40k, if only because it is a skirmish game and requires a lower model count for competative play.

I don't care about competitive play. It makes us all jerks for far too long. I'd rather go play a game, have fun, and tip back a pint with the folks I'll play with.

Hey, get that filthy logic outta here, Russ. This is the internet!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Oldgrue wrote:I don't care about competitive play. It makes us all jerks for far too long. I'd rather go play a game, have fun, and tip back a pint with the folks I'll play with.

QFT!

I find that I buy a lot more warmachine stuff than I did for 40k though, effectively making it more expensive. WM/H has a sneaky way of getting you in the door for <$200 for a nice fully competitive army, but then you think
- "Oh, if I just switch casters this would be a whole different army" $10 down
- "This new caster's feat is wicked with unit X" $40 down
- "These new guys need some support to really make it happen" $20 down
- "I want to play a game with just jacks!" $80 down
- "How about this caster instead?" $10 down
- "What if I swap these for those, rad" $40 down
- "Legends is out, sweeet!" $30 down
- "No Quarter magazine has new model rules in it, ka-ching" - $7 down

Repeat until you get into a new faction. It's a vicious cycle of finding things that you want, then buying them and having fun with it. I know it's crazy.

RussWakelin wrote:Just a quick point. There are good points all around here on both sides, and everyone has pretty much proven that on a per model bases GW and PP are roughly the same price.

If we all agree with this, then that still means that Warmachine is more affordable than 40k, if only because it is a skirmish game and requires a lower model count for competative play.

Thats not true because of the way points, etc scale in 40k vs Warmachine/Hordes.

For example, when I started Circle, the 30 dollar Primal + 45 dollar starter box was good enough to get started, but it cost me almost another 100 dollars to go to 500 points. (Extra warpwolf 30, tharn ravagers 60, lord of the feast 10) If I wanted to be more competetive or go up to 750, with the option to swap out units it would cost me another 150 dollars or so. (Wolves of orboros 50, Gorax 20, Kruger 10, Baldur 10, pureblood warpwolf 40, Woldwarden 40)

So I just dropped 300 bucks and I can play several 300-500 point games, and 1 750 point game with everything I have.

For 300 dollars you can make any number of 1500 point armies that are about as competitive as the Hordes army I had, and if you did orks or marines, and made use of AOBR, you could do even better.

Please show me how I'm wrong because I'd love to play a cheaper game, but the numbers just don't support it.

WEll fineeee i've spent hella money on WM/Hordes too.


But .. for some reason it felt better than buying GW things lol.


Anyone feel this way ? (PP buyers i'm talkin to)



IF WE WANT TO TALK ABOUT CHEAP GAMES - just go At-43 then.

The cheapest above all with crazy discounts!


Lets go gogogo.

When I was playing WarMachine, before Prime through Superiority, it really wasn't anymore of a skirmish game than 40k was.

Yes, I'm sure you can make me a list for $200 that uses Warjacks but odds are it'll suck compared to my Cryx or Menoth horde armies I used. I can also cobble together a Space Marine for $200 that, in all honestly, will probably do better in actual games than a similarly cheap WarMachine army. A competitive army in either game, on average, is going to run the same amount of money. Saying otherwise involves a fair amount of self delusion.

I used to really like WarMachine. I came from playing historicals primarily and I got into WarMachine before jumping into 40k and Fantasy. I've talked to a lot of disgruntled GW vets and I feel the same way they felt but about PP. Sure, I could keep using Knights Examplar but I'd be a fool not to use Knights Errant. Yes, I had a unit of Stormblades but only a sucker would use them over Stormguard. I had 20 Bane Thralls and wanted to throw them away as soon as I saw Bane Knights. I understand it's different than GW getting rid of Lost and the Damned or Squats but it didn't feel much better to have to keep up with the newest and best things.

I got into Hordes as well with a Trollbloods army and that set me back quite a bit. 20 Kriel Warriors aren't cheap. At least in Hordes I didn't feel like a total noob for using Beasts like I did for using Warjacks in WarMachine.

My point is that competitive armies at sizes for most tournament play, which seemed to be 750 when I left, I would have as many figures on the table as I would for most of my 40k armies (outside of Orks and Tyranids for me, personally). In some cases, like Cryx, I had more models than one of my normal 40k armies.

As to these figures, I actually like them. It's frustrating, honestly, as PP is so hit and miss. Some figures are really nice and others would be considered average figures for Chronopia.

@Russ

I do think they would average to be about the same, counting a 2000 pt Fantasy army (TKs) vs a 500pt Hordes army (Skorne). Now while GW's bigger troop models such as terminators may be comparable to PP's troops in price, it doesn't do anything to change the fact that PP's regular troop models still cost 3-4x that of GW's regular troops.

For eg.

Full Skorne praetorian unit - GBP20 (box) + 2xGBP7 (Unit blisters) = GBP34 +/- GBP12 (UA) = 10 models
Ingame value = 85 pts ~ 17% of a 500pt army

Full skeleton unit - GBP18/GBP24 = 20 models
Ingame value = 200-ish pts ~ 10% of a 2000 pt army

If you extrapolate these numbers (as the cheapest units available in each army), you end up with a Skorne army costing GBP200 and an Undead army costing between GBP180-GBP240. Which amounts to the same thing on average.

Now of course these are gross simplifications, and someone out there is nevertheless preparing a dollar per point chart to present in this very thread, but it does demonstrate that for some armies at least, GW = PP. Now, my gut feeling is that most PP armies will cost the same, due to them being all metal, and the all metal GW armies will cost much more than them. However, for armies which are largely plastic, I do feel that the cost will be equal.

There is, however, one thing good about playing GW, with enough skill, you can always convert a cheaper model into a more expensive one (i.e. Empire Knights => Mounted Wights). This does not apply to PP, being the insane anti-conversion nazis they are.

Edit. On topic, these guys are actually looking pretty nice. I might buy a couple just to paint. After the abortions that were Mulg and the Retribution, I am glad that PP is hitting again. I can't comment on the size problems, apart from the fact that this does appear to be a longstanding problem. Remember Prime Deneghra?

while i wish pp was as cheap as when i started collecting (i can remember donating plasma, and having the cash to get a unit or a couple casters and a jack with a bit left), i'll still get the fennblades because i rather like the look of the models, and out of all the armies for games i play, trollblood are probably about my favorite.

also, i really really like its a full unit, and i don't have to try and find a blister or two (i always seemed to hit the store when they either didn't have blisters, or only 1 when i needed two)

greenskin lynn: people really trade blood for models?!

Rogue Market: I'm much happier when I spend the money on the Warmachine stuff, if only
because I'm not buying the same kit a third time. It's nice to paint different things