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malfred wrote:Rogue Market: I'm much happier when I spend the money on the Warmachine stuff, if only
because I'm not buying the same kit a third time. It's nice to paint different things

That may be the first real "pro" that anyone has ever said.

While I like the overall look of the sculpts I'm disappointed that PP's conversion to plastic is really just a change in casting medium and not really a radical shift in the way that they sculpt models. They are not more poseable or more unique for being out of plastic. Look closely at these units, they still feature multiples of the same exact pose, exactly like PP's metal units. They may be slightly easier to convert, but these plastics are not really the same as GW's plastics. Cost considerations aside what can I do in terms of making a unit look unique? These units are designed to build one way, most people who buy them will have largely the same unit as anyone else who buys them. GW's kits are designed to allow for much more variation and ease of conversion. Even taking into account some of the concessions they made for some units ranking up in fantasy, two units built from the same GW kit are much easier to make look different.

malfred wrote:greenskin lynn: people really trade blood for models?!

i first started wargaming around the start of my second year of college, i had a full enough class load that i didn't have time for a job. So, once a week or so, myself and a friend or two would walk over to the plasma bank and spend the hour and a half or so to donate, and then hit up a gaming store that offered discounts with the $30plus we had each made for essentially laying on a couch watching movies.

that was really the only way i could afford to build my cygnar army, those days

So, why is Nightmare nearly double the price of a Slayer?

The same goes for any of the "Unique" jacks. From what I have seen, most players run maybe one heavy.
And I have not yet seen doubles of a heavy.
therefore the "Only need one" reasoning can hold for all heavy jacks, not just the "Uniques".

These new plastics are troops that will be in multiples. I do not see a price break for that.

PP = GW . They do not yet have 20+ years of disillusioned players.
But they have the exact same pricing methods and reasoning.

I'm just glad my Cryx cav are only $75 for a full unit.

whitedragon wrote:

malfred wrote:Rogue Market: I'm much happier when I spend the money on the Warmachine stuff, if only
because I'm not buying the same kit a third time. It's nice to paint different things

That may be the first real "pro" that anyone has ever said.

About warmachine? Plenty of people like the game.

About PP sculpts? Plenty of us like that as well.

About these particular sculpts? They are very characterful and fit the units nicely.

What part are you referring to?

Love those fennblades. That what the whole trollblood range should look like. Maybe then I wouldn't be selling my figures. Love the look though, seriously psyched by the sweet plastic. The price is a bit much for me, but maybe for a holiday I'll pick up a box.

malfred wrote:

whitedragon wrote:

malfred wrote:Rogue Market: I'm much happier when I spend the money on the Warmachine stuff, if only
because I'm not buying the same kit a third time. It's nice to paint different things

That may be the first real "pro" that anyone has ever said.

About warmachine? Plenty of people like the game.

About PP sculpts? Plenty of us like that as well.

About these particular sculpts? They are very characterful and fit the units nicely.

What part are you referring to?

I was referring to my own opinion of the game. Steampunk and M:TG style combo bashing does not really float my boat and get me excited. That coupled with the visual style PP has chosen for the game also doesn't really get me all excited. On the other hand, you are exactly correct in that 40k is about spamming multiple similar units (or for Space Marines, they all wear power armor, regardless of if they are a captain, assault marine, etc.) and in Warmachine, most armies use a more varied mix of units from every faction. That's certainly a "pro" in my book, and one I hadn't thought about before.

On the other hand, I like the "regimented" look that a full space marine army has, and I'd argue that some of the armies in warmachine don't have as much of a binding theme across the whole army apart from a color scheme. Each of their units are too different, with the exception of maybe Menoth (tall hats and armor) or Legion (Shark faces).

skrulnik wrote:From what I have seen, most players run maybe one heavy.
And I have not yet seen doubles of a heavy.

I have three Slayers

skrulnik wrote:So, why is Nightmare nearly double the price of a Slayer?

The same goes for any of the "Unique" jacks. From what I have seen, most players run maybe one heavy.
And I have not yet seen doubles of a heavy.
therefore the "Only need one" reasoning can hold for all heavy jacks, not just the "Uniques".

Players running more heavies and jacks in general is one of the things PP set out to change with the Mk2 rules. It could very well be that they expect most Mk2 armies to run two or more heavies when 2010 comes around.

@ John - Nice Cryx dude.




On Legion I run double Angelius's.


Again - its all up to playstyle.


I dont always run double heavies or such.


It really depends what you want to do with your army =)





It also depends on WM vs Hordes.



WM - you need focus points to make your heavies really usable.


Whereas ... Hordes- not so much cuz if they frenzy - you get made bonusses too anyways! haha.


Thats why i love hordes.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

skrulnik wrote:From what I have seen, most players run maybe one heavy.
And I have not yet seen doubles of a heavy.

I have three Slayers

I have three ironclads, two defenders, three lancers, two sentinels, three mules, two nomads...

I rarely run less then two jacks unless I'm trying some idea for an infantry heavy force, and usally 3-4 jacks is standard in my lists (with two heavies on average) and thats MKI. MKII these numbers will increase for me.

Hahaha, Malf. I loved your joke about the 13 year terminus player beating you to prove your manhood...you were joking right?

Seriously nice models there. Bigger is better (No i'm not referencing manhood in any way, shape of form here either).

Um, right. Joke. Ha!

Ha.

CT GAMER wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

skrulnik wrote:From what I have seen, most players run maybe one heavy.
And I have not yet seen doubles of a heavy.

I have three Slayers

I have three ironclads, two defenders, three lancers, two sentinels, three mules, two nomads...

I rarely run less then two jacks unless I'm trying some idea for an infantry heavy force, and usally 3-4 jacks is standard in my lists (with two heavies on average) and thats MKI. MKII these numbers will increase for me.

@John and CT

But do you regularly run two of the same heavy jack?

Multiples of Lights I have seen, and I am running either 2 rippers or Wretches.

I know a guy with multiples of all the Khador Jacks, but he never runs more than one.
'Beasts in the ither hand...

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Drawomancer wrote:You are all aware that these box sets are the full, maximum size you can field those units in, right? Not half a unit or a third of a unit or three fifths of a unit but a full unit.

So, just like a GW SM Tactical Squad?

Except for the fact that both of these units are more equivalent to Terminators in size and importance\Elite status.

Drawomancer wrote:Except for the fact that both of these units are more equivalent to Terminators in size and importance\Elite status.

Fennblades are comparable to Terminators in size, but not status. They'd be more like Dire Avengers in an eldar army. They're not the bare-bones trooper, but aren't much more than one either.

skrulnik wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

skrulnik wrote:From what I have seen, most players run maybe one heavy.
And I have not yet seen doubles of a heavy.

I have three Slayers

I have three ironclads, two defenders, three lancers, two sentinels, three mules, two nomads...

I rarely run less then two jacks unless I'm trying some idea for an infantry heavy force, and usally 3-4 jacks is standard in my lists (with two heavies on average) and thats MKI. MKII these numbers will increase for me.

@John and CT

But do you regularly run two of the same heavy jack?

Multiples of Lights I have seen, and I am running either 2 rippers or Wretches.

I know a guy with multiples of all the Khador Jacks, but he never runs more than one.
'Beasts in the ither hand...

Commonly run two mules with Ashlynn (obvious reasons) and this will only get better in MKII due to more predictable mule crit effect (I may grab a third mule actually to run three).

I often run two defenders for deadly sniping in my Stryker drop and pop lists...

I run 2-3 Ironclads at times with Darius or Nemo...

Dunno, I don't often see two same heavy beasts unless it's something like Krueger lighting
spam. Otherwise, it's mix and match to get those key animi into the game.

I've always avoided buying multiples of heavy warjacks and warbeasts, preferring to field two different ones. I've seen multiple Defenders, Seethers and Reckoners, in Hordes I see multiple Woldwardens, Carnivean and Angeluis.

skrulnik wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

skrulnik wrote:From what I have seen, most players run maybe one heavy.
And I have not yet seen doubles of a heavy.

I have three Slayers

@John and CT

But do you regularly run two of the same heavy jack?

Yes. What you see is what I own. If I want to make points, I will field multiple Slayers.

fullheadofhair wrote:10 plastic for $50 or 5 for $45??

Where is the howling, rending of clothes and gnashing of teeth. Come on people, how many threads about GW and their pricing? This is worse - this makes goldswords actually look worth their weight. I still don't buy the argument that you need less models etc to play WM so it is cheaper, because you build up a good WM army and it isn't cheap.

I dunno, just smacks of hypocrisy to me - what does PP have to do before its players actually start to complain?

This, basically. They're great figures, and like the rest of PP's stuff, exceptionally well sculpted, but as I saw the price I blurted out, "Oh, come on!"

Even though they're Ogre-sized, at fifty bucks a box I'll be taking a pass.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

The odd thing for me is that I can buy 5 assembled and painted plastic minis from PP for $16 (Monsterapocalypse), but I get 5 unpainted unassembled models for $45?

It must be just a "what the market will bare" deal. No one is going to pay $45 for a booster, but the warspears will sell at that price.

I think the plastics look great, even of they do not have the ease of conversion of GW plastics. All in good time.

engine

The difference is in production and sales methods. Monsterpocalypse is mass produced like a toy. Within a mpoc set there is really just a small number of large models and many smaller models that can be pumped out en masse and shoved into random boxes. Hobby type games have more limited runs and way more detail and multiple parts to it's models.

One pricing aspect that's not covered much is the size of the army. These units may cost $50 or so, but they are a larger chunk of a WM army than a gw army where that fifty gets you a terminator squad but it's only a small part of your army.

skrulnik wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

skrulnik wrote:From what I have seen, most players run maybe one heavy.
And I have not yet seen doubles of a heavy.

I have three Slayers

I have three ironclads, two defenders, three lancers, two sentinels, three mules, two nomads...

I rarely run less then two jacks unless I'm trying some idea for an infantry heavy force, and usally 3-4 jacks is standard in my lists (with two heavies on average) and thats MKI. MKII these numbers will increase for me.

@John and CT

But do you regularly run two of the same heavy jack?

Multiples of Lights I have seen, and I am running either 2 rippers or Wretches.

I know a guy with multiples of all the Khador Jacks, but he never runs more than one.
'Beasts in the ither hand...

Lol I play Khador and all my stuff is heavy. I run 2 Kodiak's at times and have been known to run two Berserkers as well. Heck i generally play a mainly Jack army with Karchev and have little trouble.

2 things.

Although I do like the plastic ( suck it page 5...or whereever the anti plastic thing is in their books :p)
It's not enough to make me change, I like lots of troops, It's still expensive, not too far off a GW army despite having fewer models, also I doubt the quality of the plastic, dunno why.

Second Point, we all know plastic moulds are priiicey to the extreme, especially compared to metal moulds, PP doesn't have the funds to make the commitment, also as bussiness-ey people will understand, It looks very bad, and with PP's margins, which arent bad, for the size of PP they're just not big enough to do it, It'll drag their ROCE down for at least 3 years before they start to reap the benifits, especially in this economic climate, in 2007 GW invested heavily in plastic minis, this looked very bad on the graphs for the sharholders, but then the credit cruch hit, the price of metal, in particular tin, skyrocketed, because of their new plastics and cost saving measures (managerial restructuring, moving US stores from shopping centres to strip malls, closing loss making stores) GW was in a good position to weather it in a niche market (it helped that gaming increased because in actual fact it's very cheap, for £300 I can get more than enough hobby equipment and models for a good size army, which Ican use over and over again, every week I can go out and play at my local store for free, compared to going to a trendy nightclub, up to £50 a night) however with an all metal range soaring prices hit PP as did publishing costs and haulage, a lack of physical stores to lose money was however useful.

Thus ends todays lesson, class dismissed.

I'm wondering if the non-styrene plastic is any more feasible than the other kind. Alkemy
uses it, so it leads me to think that it's not so bad.

But I don't know.

Kyley wrote:Although I do like the plastic ( suck it page 5...or whereever the anti plastic thing is in their books :p)
It's not enough to make me change, I like lots of troops, It's still expensive, not too far off a GW army despite having fewer models, also I doubt the quality of the plastic, dunno why.

I think it's a safe bet they'll be removing that page from future books.

The whole page?

I think the page will be there, but it'll change.

malfred wrote:I'm wondering if the non-styrene plastic is any more feasible than the other kind. Alkemy
uses it, so it leads me to think that it's not so bad.

But I don't know.

They could use cheaper palstic, but the last thing you want to do in this market is piut forward low quality products, because then you loose your edge, anyone can make inferior models, which cheaper plastic could cause, for an example the plastic in GW starter kits and their WD giveaways if different to their regular stuff, and has less detail definition

I think its funny that people keep comparing GW to PP with prices. I don't care what the price of GW is when I'm looking at PP all I know is that the fennblades are $30 cheaper than the comparable kriels and the warspears are $20 cheaper than the warmongers. So what's the complaint?

On a side note- I love GW's high prices because they allow me to trade a few old GW items for a bunch of PP stuff on Bartertown