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The Dragon wrote:Maybe you guys should just wish for it 'real' hard, lol.

Mr. Tau-statistic is also right for the Tau, but did anyone NEED to tell them to take railguns? lol.

...

Dark Eldar... I really don't know that much about you. All I ever hear is this magical 2+ invulnerable character

Well the point was more so for me to figure out which Railgun to aim at the monolith. Now my Hammerheads can just land some sweet sweet pie plates onto the Necrons.

Dark Eldar are pretty much screwed against Monoliths directly. Their Dark Lance, the main stay of anti-tank, is rendered useless by "living metal". Fortunately they have something called a Ravager which can land 3 plasma cannon hits into the Necron boyz. Phase-out never looked so easy. Though they are pretty much screwed against a Monolith wall.

Zid wrote:Genestealers could glance a monolith down. W/ toxin sacs they are Str 5 each. w/ rending on 6's they will be str 11 + D3. Roll a 5 or 6 thats a glance. Do that enough times (10-12 genestealers would have a decent chance) and they could knock it down. problem is if they don't they're gonna get a Str 9 ap 3 shot to the dome

Uh, 2 problems here:
-You can't glance a Monolith to death (Can't take down the power matrix, and flux arcs keep getting shots reduced by 1)
-You don't get the +D3 for rending against a monolith

Thank you eight ball, I was just going to sigh and flip to another page.

BTW, for the orks... what good are cover saves in melee against Big-D? None. In a max unit of super-nobs you're talking 10 guys. Big-D is going to intercept (remember I can walk away from you) and probably stomp 3-4 of them.
Then you're using Str 7-8 powerklaws against a T8 creature so it'll be 4+ to hit and either 5 or 4 to wound.

As for the "ooohhhh" massive ork waves? If they're actually taking the silly 30 man squads then yes- quite easily lines of pariahs and immortals can just mow them down at range.

But seriously, if you're dealing strictly with Monoliths no -- orks don't have THAT great a problem at all. The problem is when you start getting intercepted by wonky necron tactics such as the Lord w/ mask, Flayed Ones, Pariah combo-- meaning you need 6s to hit.

BTW, I have played orks. I know they're like damn ticks to peel them off the table. I just don't buy into the over-blown sense of goodhood most greenskin players seem to be toting around, lol.

Are they tough-sure. Is that insurmountable- nope.

The Dragon wrote:BTW, for the orks... what good are cover saves in melee against Big-D?

Big D, meet Lootas.

Lootas, meet Big D....

I am not kidding. I have NEVER seen Big D survive more than a single round of shooting against my 2 squads fo Lootas. Plus, Big D costs so many points, phase out comes all that much faster when my Lootas turn their Deffguns on the Warriors/Immortals.

If I see a C'tan + Monoliths I am a very, very happy player (no matter what army I am using), because phase out is waaaay too easy to get at that point

orchewer wrote:

The Dragon wrote:Maybe you guys should just wish for it 'real' hard, lol.

Mr. Tau-statistic is also right for the Tau, but did anyone NEED to tell them to take railguns? lol.

...

Dark Eldar... I really don't know that much about you. All I ever hear is this magical 2+ invulnerable character

Well the point was more so for me to figure out which Railgun to aim at the monolith. Now my Hammerheads can just land some sweet sweet pie plates onto the Necrons.

Dark Eldar are pretty much screwed against Monoliths directly. Their Dark Lance, the main stay of anti-tank, is rendered useless by "living metal". Fortunately they have something called a Ravager which can land 3 plasma cannon hits into the Necron boyz. Phase-out never looked so easy. Though they are pretty much screwed against a Monolith wall.

Actually never had any trouble getting AROUND any number of monoliths....just sucks not being able to even have the slightest chance of killing one....

I dont know weather to laugh at you or actually force you to read some batreps of orks in action.

For a start, how would you get "Big D" as you call him, infront of the bikernobz? they move a bit too fast, they also wouldnt target him, they will aim for warrior killing (easily a unit per turn)

On a note, the klaws are S9 on a nob and 10 for a boss, not 7-8.

For immortals and Co. to wipe out every ork they would have to be firing 4 shots a turn each, hitting and killing with every shot.
Correct me if im wrong, but that wont happen.

Now, what can cron warriors do in combat? they are very basic to say the least, and at 4 attacks per boy they wont be getting up too quickly (120 attacks from 30 boyz)

Not only this, but lootas also can play a great part in this, un-ending warrior killing unit.

Burnas actually rise to glory since they can be using the burnas as power weapons.

I doubt i need to go on here, go find an ork batrep and see how they function.
You cannot gun down a green tide army 100% before they hit your lines, even IG wouldnt be able to manage it.

Even Termy's go done if you pepper them enough, Ill take a monolith with a Tl'ed lascannon.

Shadowbrand wrote:Even Termy's go done if you pepper them enough, Ill take a monolith with a Tl'ed lascannon.

Twin linked lascannons fired from CSM hit 8/9 of the time.
There is a 1/6 chance of that hit causing a penetrating effect.
There is a 1/3 chance of the penetration effect destroying the monolith.

That gives a just under a 1 in 20 chance of the TL LC destroying the monolith.
Don't you think those 20 lascannon shots might be better spent elsewhere? Like turning 2 squads of warriors/immortals into piles of smoldering legs?

labmouse42 wrote:

Shadowbrand wrote:Even Termy's go done if you pepper them enough, Ill take a monolith with a Tl'ed lascannon.

Twin linked lascannons fired from CSM hit 8/9 of the time.
There is a 1/6 chance of that hit causing a penetrating effect.
There is a 1/3 chance of the penetration effect destroying the monolith.

That gives a just under a 1 in 20 chance of the TL LC destroying the monolith.
Don't you think those 20 lascannon shots might be better spent elsewhere? Like turning 2 squads of warriors/immortals into piles of smoldering legs?

?your maths a bit out but then your approximating ... actual odds are ...

Lascannon 1/27 or 3.7%
TL Lascannon 8/81 or 9.8%
TL Lascannon (BS3) 3/72 or 4.2%

now to actually get over 50% chance of killing a monolith with these you need this number of shots
18! Lascannon(51.1%)
7! TL Lascannon (51.7%)
17! TL Lascannon (BS3) (51.4%)

Getting over 75% you need this number of shots
37! Lascannon(75.3%)
14! TL Lascannon (76.6%)
33! TL Lascannon (BS3) (75.4%)

Oh jesus... for the nob-bikers on attack strength: sorry I was thinking some weird base strengths and not getting the attack in your favor-- anyways, furiously charge all you want, Big-D ain't buyin'.

As for getting around bikers' speed? I don't-- I just place the God where I figure they'll have to stop if they want to be able to melee anything critical of mine.

Also, I never claimed 'crons could completely gun down orks, that's just silly. But if we're talking Land-trenching Orks with movement 6 and D6 run and 2-3 units of mine moving 6" and firing 24" with Str5 AP4... then I feel I can whittle down with relative assurity at least 2 30ork mobs. I've done it several times even.

About the lootas.. you bet you could put some pain on Big -D.... That's why I hide behind the Monolith. Generally, I feel that if I lose the Monolith, but got you to bring me all your 'pretties' it's fair enough.

Just settle down ork boyz: not everybody has to worship Gork and Mork or whatever the hell the names are...

I think the Chaos Gods and their friends Lash Prince 1 and Lash Prince 2 have made that clear, lol.

Tri wrote:
Eldar player here to help ... odds to Wreck or Explode

Fire Dragons Fusion Gun + tank hunter
Fire Dragons MeltaBomb + tank hunter

Most discussions of the topic I've read suggest that 1) you don't get TH benefits vs Living Metal and 2) Meltabombs are counted as 8 + 1d6. Under those two assumptions Fire Dragons are incapable of penetrating a Monolith.

liquiddark wrote:

Tri wrote:
Eldar player here to help ... odds to Wreck or Explode

Fire Dragons Fusion Gun + tank hunter
Fire Dragons MeltaBomb + tank hunter

Most discussions of the topic I've read suggest that 1) you don't get TH benefits vs Living Metal and 2) Meltabombs are counted as 8 + 1d6. Under those two assumptions Fire Dragons are incapable of penetrating a Monolith.

Questions ....
Can you point me towards these threads?
Can you tell me what in Living metal is stopping tank hunter?
Reason being that Living Metal only does the following ...
Only roll One Dice and the armour never counts as being lower then AV14

Tri wrote:Can you point me towards these threads?

Sorry, I don't spend time amassing collections of hyperlinks for the benefit of arguing on the internet. Google "Tank Hunters" + Monolith and see what you come up with. You'll find some lively discussions, but the bulk of them seem to come down more heavily on the side of TH not working vs Monoliths, meaning Fire Dragons can only Wreck a monolith on a glancing (roll of 6 to pen) hit that then rolls a 6 on the damage table (thanks to AP1).

Can you tell me what in Living metal is stopping tank hunter?

In particular, the later printing of the codex states:

Necron Codex 2nd printing wrote:
In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armor penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single d6 no matter what.

The FAQ spells it out more clearly:

Codex: Necros FAQ v4.0.1 wrote:
When attacking a Monolith, extra penetration dice and doubling scores are much the same thing - don't count any bonus penetration of any sort against a Monolith. So no bonuses for multiple Talos attacks, tank-hunter veteran skills, etc. The only exception is the Vindicare Assassins' turbo-penetrator round.

liquiddark wrote:
The FAQ spells it out more clearly:

Codex: Necros FAQ v4.0.1 wrote:
When attacking a Monolith, extra penetration dice and doubling scores are much the same thing - don't count any bonus penetration of any sort against a Monolith. So no bonuses for multiple Talos attacks, tank-hunter veteran skills, etc. The only exception is the Vindicare Assassins' turbo-penetrator round.

and there in lies your problem ... it may have once stated this but currently it does not. Please update your FAQ

Necron Codex 2nd printing wrote:
In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single d6 no matter what.

Well this is not a rule; It is an explanation. this again can easily be seen from the FAQ that says models do double their strength with a power fist. Also from the fact it starts with "in practice"

Tri wrote:
Well this is not a rule; It is an explanation. this again can easily be seen from the FAQ that says models do double their strength with a power fist. Also from the fact it starts with "in practice"

What's the difference between a rule and an explanation, exactly? The FAQ specifically excludes powerfists, but that was always understood by many players anyways because the unaugmented strength of a power fist attack is in fact double the user's strength. Unaugmented is generally taken to include only bonus penetration and strength applying specifically to armor (chain fists, DCCW, MCCC, and TH amongst them).

You can rule on it however you want to. I'm just warning those who are interested that the rule is not as hard and fast as one might like with respect to Tank Hunters.

A Broadside team sounds like it would work wonders on a monolith.

liquiddark wrote:
You can rule on it however you want to. I'm just warning those who are interested that the rule is not as hard and fast as one might like with respect to Tank Hunters.

Fair enough. Since the FAQ update its been shown (through debate) that things such as Furious Charge and Tank Hunter work but we'll leave this here. If you want to continue we start a thread in YMDC

I have yet to fight one, but my idea would be saturation Lascannon/ anit-tank fire untill its dead, and use my Tac and scout squads to deal with the warriors. But god forbide I roll one of these . That would suck.

knowing that the dice gods hate it when you fire 6 lacannons at a monolith (or a land raider for that matter, as you learned yesterday) so do what any sensible IG player does, fire a demolisher cannon at it!

Ah strength 10 ordinance blasts the best way to do it against monoliths.

I have recently fell in love with the manticore, once (in apoc) I landed 2 str 10 hits per monolith in a 3 'lith phlanex. Thats like 6 vindicators!

EDIT: I think we can effectively rule IG out of the proceedings with all that str9+ ordinance being flung around, how about INQ? there is almost nothing in the witch hunters army that can penitrate a monolith, with at relying almost soley on the sister's multi-meltas and str 8 exocists, I dont think "kill it with fire" works so well against robots.

eldar- has in it's possesion the absolute best AT weapon in the game per attack, the wraithlord... at str 10, 2d6 AP (not for monos ) always on back armour (sadface) and rerolls to hit it can tear through baneblades in mere seconds! and monoliths in a few turns

Tau- railguns... try hard, get lucky, nuff said

SM- almost everything has been said, but has anyone mentioned thunder hammers?

Chaos- ? deamons, psykers and oblits ?

Orks- all klaw nob mob

'nids, is there really an option? C-fexes.

deamons... macjik it away? or just deep strike away from it and munch warriors with bloodletter powerswords.

Everyone- IGNORE IT!!! just get ready for phase out, because that monolith represents 15 warriors you don't have to kill.

Or you could wait for your opponent to turn away and proceed to smash the monolith with a hammer. Blame shoddy construction and say that he can use it because its hasnt been finished.