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LunaHound wrote:

What we need to remember , is its all in the past.
The generations now are innocent , and shouldnt be burdened with such grudge and hate.

I entirely agree with Lunahound.

That said, there is that old saying that should apply in relation to the discussion in this thread about the great wars of recent history:

'Those who for get the mistakes of the past are condemned to repeat them'... As the last tommy to survive the first world war has died, as time relegates those who lived through the second great war and saw the horrors of that time to the very old, a place where we in the West cease listening to them. I think we must take steps to understand how the world got to that stage last time and ever strive to avoid it again. The attempts of those of the extreme right, and the extreme left, to gain power and influence must be blocked in any way we can.

MeanGreenStompa wrote: The attempts of those of the extreme right, and the extreme left, to gain power and influence must be blocked in any way we can.

Amen to that!

Well, I did just kind of ninja my post over here buuuut...

Me and my family (especially my dad and brothers) often make butter chicken or sumfink for dinner. Is it really racist to speak in a mock-indian accent the whole time? We're not hurting anyone, and we have a great laugh. Is this behaviour harmless or unnacceptable?

Emperors Faithful wrote:Well, I did just kind of ninja my post over here buuuut...

Me and my family (especially my dad and brothers) often make butter chicken or sumfink for dinner. Is it really racist to speak in a mock-indian accent the whole time? We're not hurting anyone, and we have a great laugh. Is this behaviour harmless or unnacceptable?

As long as you are able to contain it just within that joke , its ... sort of ok ( no one else know right ? )
but the reason i said sort of , because sometimes ( oh god this concept is confusing and im the worst person possible at trying to explain things >.< )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homunculus

For example! say you like burgers . But if every time you are served hamburgers , you are also forced to watch the mutilated corps or stuff on 4chan.
Eventually the homunculus will be created inside your mind's system and stored away. And everytime you see burger , the stored homunculus will be
active , despite not seeing the 4chan pictures. Thus even if the pictures are not there , you might feel grossed out by burgers.

...well...I think that kind of works like Pavlovas Response.
1) Ring a Bell every time you feed a dog.
2) Dog will expect to be fed when bell rings.
3) Ring bell, but don't feed dog.
4) Dogs mouth will still water.

But I still don't know what that explanation had to do with my story. (BTW we do the same thing with chinese food...and mexican...and pretty much any accent we can make fun of)

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Lord-Loss wrote:"America won world war two cause we nuked Japan"

Didn't we?

I mean, we ended the war in that fashion. Victoriously.

Russia won WW2. If Uncle Joe hadn't used up millions of his own people to soak up Nazi bullets, the entirety of Europe, including the UK, would have fallen to the 3rd Reich. USA would not have had the ability to wage a war on both oceans.

Only a monster like Stalin beat a monster like Hitler. That's what broke the back of the axis, the Nazi war on the Eastern Front.

Body count.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

Which has Jack Frost to do with the Japanese. We had two opponents to deal with, not just one, unlike some people....

Emperors Faithful wrote:
But I still don't know what that explanation had to do with my story. (BTW we do the same thing with chinese food...and mexican...and pretty much any accent we can make fun of)

Ah im trying to make example that if you are able to draw a clear line and stop at (funny accents) all is good.
But some people cant be so self controlled and goes on doing *more things thats less acceptable. ( Pringles? )
and eventually it becomes normal to them and becomes a part of them before they even realize it.

Frazzled wrote:
We had two opponents to deal with, not just one, unlike some people....

And after you decided to join the fight somewhat late...again... two oceans to sit behind as comfort zones, unlike some people...

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
We had two opponents to deal with, not just one, unlike some people....

And after you decided to join the fight somewhat late...again... two oceans to sit behind as comfort zones, unlike some people...

Not at all like a country located on an island, surrounded by oceans to sit behind as comfort zones else they'd all be speaking French Vive La Napoleon! unlike some people...

The British fought the japanese as well you no.

Don't forget Kokoda guys.

whatwhat wrote:The British fought the japanese as well you no.

Yep, and bravely. But it took the evil Americans to defeat to peace loving East Asian CoProsperity Sphere.

I always find it interesting that the ships that defeated the great bismark were summarily scratched by Japanese aircraft. Jutland, meet Pearl Harbor.

Frazzled wrote:
Not at all like a country located on an island, surrounded by oceans to sit behind as comfort zones else they'd all be speaking French Vive La Napoleon! unlike some people...

The English Channel is 21 miles wide... The British kicked the French in the nuts on their home turf. We owned their navy and we owned their armies.

Always outnumbered, always outgunned and we still owned them every step of the way, pushed them out of Spain and across France, despite the overwhelming smell of garlic and smug.

Your only neighbours are the hippy in the attic and the maintainance guy from the basement you get to do all the things you don't like doing yourself.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
Not at all like a country located on an island, surrounded by oceans to sit behind as comfort zones else they'd all be speaking French Vive La Napoleon! unlike some people...

The English Channel is 21 miles wide... The British kicked the French in the nuts on their home turf. We owned their navy and we owned their armies.

Always outnumbered, always outgunned and we still owned them every step of the way, pushed them out of Spain and across France, despite the overwhelming smell of garlic and smug.

Your only neighbours are the hippy in the attic and the maintainance guy from the basement you get to do all the things you don't like doing yourself.

It was wide enough to keep the French, Spanish, and Germans out wasn't it?

Spain? A sideshow, like your and our African adventures in WWII.
Er no, you beat Napoleon in a major battle once. That was in Belgium, not France, and the Germans were coming. He was more worried about the Germans than you, as the Germans have this bad habit of ending up walking around Paris.
As has been noted vs. the Germans, it took Mother Russia to beat Napoleon.

You did not beat the Japanese. I am not sure if you ever beat them in an actual battle or naval engagement. Thats ok, no one else did either, except us and the rooskies. Further, they kind of sneak attacked you like they did everyone else (hence that whole no one beating them initially thing).

sebster wrote:At the end of the day, I think the defeat of the Axis powers was likely without US intervention.

Interesting....That's like saying Australia would have been fine fighting the Japanese by themselves, without US intervention.

Sebster, I'm really surprised that you would make that comment, I thought you knew more about history than that. Do you really think that Britain would have kicked Germany/Italy out of Africa and Itlay without the U.S.A.?

Stalin in fact complained bitterly to the Allies as to what was taking them so long to attack mainland Europe. If you really think that the USSR could have beaten Germany without the pressure that the U.S./British combined, placed on them your crazy.

GG

Exarch_Nektel wrote:Intolerance is a fact of life, and we just have to tolerate it.

In other words, if you have a brain, you shouldn't give a flying feth about intolerant comments.

Many people mention America's intolerance. Here's to show that the feeling is mutual towards us.

Someone call Russia, we have some unfinished business with Germany...

On the topic of WW2 I had two grandfathers in it and several great uncles in it. One of my granfathers was lucky enough to just turn the legal age in 1944, and when he was being shipped over to europe germany surrendered he got his badge of courage in korea later. Another great uncle was in an anti tank crew mounted in a halftrack and were stiiting near a lake when all of a sudden a german tank drove out of the lake needles to say the tank lost. My other grandfather was stationed in pearl harbor, lucky guy survived and still hates the japs.

He was quoted when we were fixing his roof and we found japanese beetles chewing it up, he said "Damn japs still won't leave me alone.".



Now back to rascism and intolerance, its so easy to be it. Personally I went away from the thin-skin approach and I choose to piss off every nationality/race/creed/ethnic group possible. Anything is fair game to me, even myself, damn whiteys.
Also, its easy to think anything is rascist. I was talking to a black girl about the jena 6 last year and I said "I don't care what color you are, it's not right if a gang of people beat up one person." she responded heatedly with "OH! BECAUSE THEY'RE BLACK THEY HAVE TO BE A GANG HUH?", I responded with "No, a gang is a group of people, ever hear of Scooby Doo and the Mystery GANG, so shut the hell up you rascist *female dog*!".

generalgrog wrote:
Interesting....That's like saying Australia would have been fine fighting the Japanese by themselves, without US intervention.

No, it really isn't. Unless you want to make the argument that the Cold War was not a duel between superpowers, but between a hegemon and Australia.

generalgrog wrote:
Sebster, I'm really surprised that you would make that comment, I thought you knew more about history than that. Do you really think that Britain would have kicked Germany/Italy out of Africa and Itlay without the U.S.A.?

You're equating an Axis defeat with kicking the Axis our of all those territories they acquired in the course of the war, while also deposing Hitler; these are not the same things. Though I think 'stop' would have been a better word to use than defeat; as there would have probably been some form of settlement before France was retaken.

generalgrog wrote:
Stalin in fact complained bitterly to the Allies as to what was taking them so long to attack mainland Europe. If you really think that the USSR could have beaten Germany without the pressure that the U.S./British combined, placed on them your crazy.

GG

Again, you're assuming that the only way to defeat Germany was to force its unconditional surrender.

For Russia I think thats a safe assumption.

to maul Tina Turner in Beyond Thunderdome:
"Two Countries enter. One country leaves!"

Relapse wrote:My father had also heard about and seen a lot of fairly nasty stuff that had been done in the Phillippines by the occupying Japanese forces.

I've heard a couple stories from a Chinese friend whose grandparents lived under the Japanese occupation. It was pretty gruesome stuff.

sebster wrote:Koreans I’ve known have been quite different. Despite the Korean war, despite a national identity based on resisting the Chinese over hundreds of years, the Koreans I’ve known have really, really hated the Japanese. That’s with the Japanese having only occupied Korea for a few years during WWII… it really tells you how horrible the Japanese were.

I have trouble saying that anyone should harbor bad feelings toward someone of another nationality based on things their grandparents' generation did. That just seems like prejudice of the worst kind. But when you learn about how the Chinese and Koreans suffered under the Japanese, and how the Japanese -- unlike the Germans -- have generally been less than enthusiastic about apologizing or even showing remorse for their actions...

Well, it really makes me think about how I'd feel in that situation. It's complicated. I think most people would hesitate to forgive someone for something the other person doesn't really regret or think they need to apologize for. It doesn't make it right. But I recognize that kind of forgiveness doesn't really come naturally to human beings.

And yes, I agree about feelings toward the Japanese. As a non-Asian, it's a little startling the first time you realize just how bad the blood can be between Japanese and virtually everyone else in the region. I'm lucky in that my in-laws were extremely open, non-prejudiced people. Although I'm also aware that many Korean parents would probably rather have their daughters marry a miguk like me than marry a Japanese guy.

Frazzled wrote:For Russia I think thats a safe assumption.

Why? Stalin was renowned for his pragmatism. If he couldn't force Germany into total surrender he would've accepted a peace treaty.

There's this common understanding of Stalin as a warmonger which is just absolute nonsense when you look at his conduct both before, and after WWII; especially in light of the balance of forces in Europe. Most of his mistakes were made as a result of being too calculating, not too bent on the destruction of the evil capitalists.

dogma wrote:

Frazzled wrote:For Russia I think thats a safe assumption.

Why? Stalin was renowned for his pragmatism. If he couldn't force Germany into total surrender he would've accepted a peace treaty.

There's this common understanding of Stalin as a warmonger which is just absolute nonsense when you look at his conduct both before, and after WWII; especially in light of the balance of forces in Europe. Most of his mistakes were made as a result of being too calculating, not too bent on the destruction of the evil capitalists.

Nonsense. England wouldn't entertain surrender and they hadn't even been bombed yet. The Societ Union lost 25,000,000 people. Thats nuclear war level casualties.
Stalin thought about briefly and realized he would have been dead within the hour.
The war between the Soviet Union and Germany was to the death, literally. This wasn't peace treay armistice stuff.
If Germany won, everyone within their occupation would have eventually been killed. After the dozens of millions of Soviet dead, they could not, would not, stop with an intact Germany, which would wait a year and do it again.

Frazzled wrote:
Nonsense. England wouldn't entertain surrender and they hadn't even been bombed yet. The Societ Union lost 25,000,000 people. Thats nuclear war level casualties.
Stalin thought about briefly and realized he would have been dead within the hour.

Right, because the Great Purge was clearly not indicative of his level of control. The number of recorded death sentences approaches 700,000. A number which doesn't include the people who died in the Gulags.

Frazzled wrote:
The war between the Soviet Union and Germany was to the death, literally. This wasn't peace treay armistice stuff.

For Hitler that's true. For everyone else in the government, especially those Generals who advised against the opening of the Eastern Front, its false.

Frazzled wrote:
If Germany won, everyone within their occupation would have eventually been killed. After the dozens of millions of Soviet dead, they could not, would not, stop with an intact Germany, which would wait a year and do it again.

That's highly unlikely. There were no systematic exterminations of the general French populace. You have absolutely nothing to base that assumption on other than the Holocaust, which was targeted at an extremely narrow group of people.

I find it SO funny that America takes credit for winning both World Wars while actually doing feth all compared to the other countries. Why must they wait till the last moment to enter and claim the glory?

Right, because the Great Purge were clearly not indicative of his level of control. The number of recorded death sentences approaches 700,000. A number which doesn't include the people who died in the Gulags.
************
1. 700,000<25,000,000
2. They also realized, correctly, that any cease fire would be just that, a temporary thing.

The war between the Soviet Union and Germany was to the death, literally. This wasn't peace treay armistice stuff.

Dogma: No, I was simply pointing out the fact that if the U.S.A. did not get pulled in(Yes Germany declared on us, thereby pulling us in), Germany would not have had to keep so many units in France,Italy and Africa which could have been used on the Eastern front. What if Rommel was sent to Stalingrad instead of Kasserine.

Churchills famous comment when Germany declared war on the U.S.A. "Thank God we've just won the war." (I think that's the right quote)

Emperors Faithfull: 1941 was hardly last moment considering the war lasted until 1945. WWI it is true that USA entered later, but at the time it was considered your war, not ours. Also to make this comment "America takes credit for winning both World Wars while actually doing feth all compared to the other countries" Is one of the most ignorant comments I have seen yet on the OT forum.

GG

Frazzled wrote:
1. 700,000<25,000,000

Where are you getting 25 million from? The highest statistic I've ever heard was 11 million. Let's also not forget that there's a massive difference between executing 700,000 of your own people, and simply putting an end to a war.

Frazzled wrote:
2. They also realized, correctly, that any cease fire would be just that, a temporary thing.

All cease fires are temporary, especially in a balance of power system.

Incidentally, you don't get to claim that a realization is correct on the basis of speculation.

Frazzled wrote:
Irrelevant. Hitler was in power until literally, the end.

And the end came much earlier because of American involvement. You don't really seem to get this whole alternate history thing.

Frazzled wrote:
You mean other than the 25,000,000 dead Soviets right? Casualties among the subject populations were extreme. At best, the original plan was to move them all out-that was early before the conflict actually started.

11 million. Casualties among subject populations were extreme, but that had as much to do with scarcity within the German warmachine as it did the enforcement of ideological principle.

Frazzled wrote:
Your conveniently forgetting the fundamental concept of untermenschen. To the Germans, the Slavs weren't French, or British. They were subhuman.
Don't try to whitewash the intent of one of the great killer regimes of history.

I'm not whitewahing anything. You only believe that because I'm not screaming at the top of my lungs about how evil the Nazis were, and how essential America was to victory in WWII.

Emperors Faithful wrote:I find it SO funny that America takes credit for winning both World Wars while actually doing feth all compared to the other countries. Why must they wait till the last moment to enter and claim the glory?

World War 2 started the 1st of September 1939. Two years later the USA joined in. I wouldnt say they joined at the last moment when there was four years left, Would you?


Whats people's take on the start of WW2. Who's to blame (If anyone). Its possible it part Allied forces fault as they imposed the very unfair treaty of versailie (sp?)

generalgrog wrote:Dogma: No, I was simply pointing out the fact that if the U.S.A. did not get pulled in(Yes Germany declared on us, thereby pulling us in), Germany would not have had to keep so many units in France,Italy and Africa which could have been used on the Eastern front. What if Rommel was sent to Stalingrad instead of Kasserine.

Churchills famous comment when Germany declared war on the U.S.A. "Thank God we've just won the war." (I think that's the right quote)

The German declaration of war on he US was one of the biggest blunders of the war, because it was so horribly unnecessary. And yes, once the US joined the conflict the result was almost inevitable (70 million Germans against 700 million Allies, even Hitler was said to have balked). However, the course of the war on the Eastern Front had already been set by Jan. 1942 by the first Winter Offensive. The Germans might have shifted forces from Europe and North Africa, but that would only be feasible in the event that Britain had been overcome. All while fighting a Soviet Union that would only increase in strength.

Emperors Faithful wrote:I find it SO funny that America takes credit for winning both World Wars while actually doing feth all compared to the other countries. Why must they wait till the last moment to enter and claim the glory?

What are you talking about? We did a hell of a lot during WW2.

Like, most of the offensive work against Japan, and about as much offensive work against Germany and Italy as the UK. Plus economic aid before we actually entered as a combatant.