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Just bad luck I think.

I probably wouldn't call any U.S. college campus that I know of "highly weaponized." Why would you even suggest such a ridiculous thing?

Even on a military base, depending on what's going on at the time, soldiers aren't necessarily going around with weapons 24/7.

Also, I realize that guns probably seem like some really arcane, dangerous thing to a lot of people in the U.S. (and in my experience this is even more so the case in Europe), but you don't have to be in the military or be a police officer to know how to safely use a firearm, and even be very proficient in their use.

Fifty wrote:This happened on a military base, and the answer mooted is still "More Guns!" Seriously, how many guns would be enough?

Every day should be like the end of Hot Fuzz.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:FORT HOOD, Texas – Soldiers who witnessed the shooting rampage at Fort Hood that left 13 people dead reported that the gunman shouted "Allahu Akbar!" before opening fire, the base commander said Friday.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091106/ap_on_re_us/us_fort_hood_shooting

It would really suck to be a normal Muslim in the army right about now.

I said a prayer for the families and loved ones affected by this tradegy.

It's sad that this thread will most likely devolve into arguments about religion and guns.

: (

G

Hordini wrote:I probably wouldn't call any U.S. college campus that I know of "highly weaponized." Why would you even suggest such a ridiculous thing?

Yeah, I'm not sure what he was getting at... the VT shooter went crazy because there were too many guns on campus?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Green Blow Fly wrote:It's sad that this thread will most likely devolve into arguments about religion and guns.

: (

You could probably say that about every thread in the OT forum.

I hope he's hung upside-down in the Impact Area in the middle of Fort Hood during artillery training.

Seconded on prayers of the families of the fallen and wounded.

Sorry for my poor wording. I meant does VT have a high incidence of gun-ownership, NRA membership, or large numbers of militias in the area of anything? Does it have a history of social tension? For example, is student activism with regards to race, religion, nuclear armament or anything similar a particularly big issue there? Is it home to a large number of military scholarships or anything like that?

I was there myself for a short while (weeks, not months), I even vaguely knew one of the professors killed in the shootings there, and it seemed a perfectly normal place.

In the UK, I would know what to expect on any university campus. From my limited personal experience, I think I know what to expect on America ones, but I am not certain.

Anyway, it seems from the replies in general that there is nothing unusual about VT and my own impressions about it being a perfectly normal place were correct. (Apart from bad luck, that is.)

Fifty wrote:Sorry for my poor wording. I meant does VT have a high incidence of gun-ownership, NRA membership, or large numbers of militias in the area of anything? Does it have a history of social tension? For example, is student activism with regards to race, religion, nuclear armament or anything similar a particularly big issue there? Is it home to a large number of military scholarships or anything like that?

I was there myself for a short while (weeks, not months), I even vaguely knew one of the professors killed in the shootings there, and it seemed a perfectly normal place.

In the UK, I would know what to expect on any university campus. From my limited personal experience, I think I know what to expect on America ones, but I am not certain.

Anyway, it seems from the replies in general that there is nothing unusual about VT and my own impressions about it being a perfectly normal place were correct. (Apart from bad luck, that is.)

Two unrelated coincidences really. VT is a HUGE school, but after the VT-shooting, anything correlated with VT is going to be tainted as such. I am sure if one were to draw connections between crimes, any outlet could find an educational facility in common.

It should be borne in mind that although there are a lot of random mass shootings in the USA compared to most other countries, the number of incidents is still tiny compared to the population.

Two shooters coming from Virginia Tech is just a co-incidence. It's just bad luck.

Wow, KK is the voice of reason.

As to guns on base, normally soldiers are not permitted to just walk around randomly with full gear and guns on. During drills and if you get "lucky" enough to draw guard detail do you have a gun. Other than that guns and gear are normally stored in the soldiers barracks/lockers until needed.

Yeah and even if you are "lucky" and have a gun for guard, that doesnt mean that you will have live ammo to go with it.

Seriously, America isnt the friggin wild west you overseas .... People.

Why is it that every time someone with a non US flag talks about us on dakka dakka its always blah blah US bash this or blah blah everyone has a trunk full of Mac 10's like they somehow 10,000 miles away knows wtf they are talking about.

So far KK is the only one here that is showing any level headed thinking.

I, for one, and getting FED UP with the Anti US bull**** that so many people on the OT forum spread on an almost daily basis.

Don't like the US and the way we handle thing? Great! However, don't come here and spread your hate. How would you like it if I started a thread called (Insert country here) sucks donkey sack!!

Thats what I thought.

Sgt_Scruffy wrote:
I think we know his true motivations. As soon as I heard about this shooting, I pretty much assumed it was a Muslim. I know that's stereotypical and unbecoming, but in the post 9/11 world, I'm fairly sure most of us had the same thoughts.

To be honest, I assumed it was a PTSD case. The idea that it could have been a Muslim didn't cross my mind until I noticed the word 'harassment' in a TV crawl.

Sgt_Scruffy wrote:
This brings me to another topic. Muslim extremism and it's stranglehold on the religion seems to global. Whether it is in Ft Hood, the Middle East, Europe, or Indonesia; the fanatics seem to have the reigns of the religion. I'm not accusing all muslims of supporting terrorism or stereoyping at all, but there seems to be al lack of real opposition to these extremists from within the ranks of the faithful.

Part of this stems from the fact that Islam doesn't really deal in sects, which, for the most part, are categories introduced by outsiders. You're either a Muslim, or you're not. The extent to which any given Muslim cares about the Islamic belief of his fellows is really the only variable.

Sgt_Scruffy wrote:
Christianity and most major religions have skeletons in their closets of which they are not proud so I know this isn't just Islam. Where are the moderates? Where are the clerics stepping up and pointing these fanatics out?

Another thing to understand about Islam is that it has no formal structure like Christianity, or even Judaism. The majority of Muslims pray at home, or work. The few who attend mosques are not attending an institution like a church, but a public gathering place that may, or may not, be attended by a cleric who very likely does it out of nothing more than a sense of personal piety. These guys literally just show up, and start fixing things or leading prayers if the attendees will have them. The only real barrier to entry would be provided by the previous cleric, if there happened to be one.

The people that set up new mosques can only do so by generating a concerted following, and they can only do that by offering services which traditional mosques do not. That is to say, they emulate the communal aspect of Christian churches; including educational facilities, charity, and other community functions. They can only do this provided they have funding and, given the relative poverty of the Muslim world, any significant funding is likely to come either from illicit, or extremist sources. This naturally constrains the younger, more vibrant mosque activity to those sects that have an extremist bend. Everyone else remains functionally indifferent insofar as that extremism doesn't interfere with their daily lives. A fact which is compounded by a lack of real, national identity. In those nations where the people are culturally uniform (Egypt is a good example) you see a lot more opposition to Muslim extremism.

jp400 wrote:Yeah and even if you are "lucky" and have a gun for guard, that doesnt mean that you will have live ammo to go with it.

Seriously, America isnt the friggin wild west you overseas .... People.

Modqusiition
All righty lets calm it down people.

Why is it that every time someone with a non US flag talks about us on dakka dakka its always blah blah US bash this or blah blah everyone has a trunk full of Mac 10's

See thats just nuts, everyone knows we all have trunks full of six shooters and winchester lever actions, and backyards with oil wells. What? you don't? Jeez who let the yankees on the board

Fifty wrote:Sorry for my poor wording. I meant does VT have a high incidence of gun-ownership, NRA membership, or large numbers of militias in the area of anything? Does it have a history of social tension? For example, is student activism with regards to race, religion, nuclear armament or anything similar a particularly big issue there? Is it home to a large number of military scholarships or anything like that?

I was there myself for a short while (weeks, not months), I even vaguely knew one of the professors killed in the shootings there, and it seemed a perfectly normal place.

In the UK, I would know what to expect on any university campus. From my limited personal experience, I think I know what to expect on America ones, but I am not certain.

Anyway, it seems from the replies in general that there is nothing unusual about VT and my own impressions about it being a perfectly normal place were correct. (Apart from bad luck, that is.)

Ah, well I recall the VT shooter having gone kind of nuts for other reasons. Something along the lines of being socially isolated, sexually/romantically frustrated, hating everyone for what he considered moral depravity, that kind of thing.

I read this at 2:40 this morning on the bbc. I hoped to high hell that it wasn't religiously motivated.

The fallout from this is going to be horrific. I can't wait for every news outlet to pick up on the muslim infiltration of our military when before they couldn't even be bothered to report on the repeated gang violence there.

My thoughts go out to the families, and to the nation as a whole. It's about to go through a shitstorm of reactionary rhetoric and ridiculous clampdowns.

Ah, well I recall the VT shooter having gone kind of nuts for other reasons. Something along the lines of being socially isolated, sexually/romantically frustrated, hating everyone for what he considered moral depravity, that kind of thing.

Yeah, he was a nutjob with a history of psychological issues and a very strained life.

Fifty wrote:This happened on a military base, and the answer mooted is still "More Guns!" Seriously, how many guns would be enough?

More guns would've been nice for the victims as most of them were unarmed at the time of the attack.

Rubberanvil wrote:

Fifty wrote:This happened on a military base, and the answer mooted is still "More Guns!" Seriously, how many guns would be enough?

More guns would've been nice for the victims as most of them were unarmed at the time of the attack.

Too bad we are starting to hear reports that some of the casualties might have been inflicted by friendly fire.

Regardless, I can't help but send all my heart out to Fort Worth today, I have nothing but respect for our men and women in uniform of all kinds, and I hope the victims families can come together to overcome the tragedy.

Altered_Soul wrote:

Rubberanvil wrote:

Fifty wrote:This happened on a military base, and the answer mooted is still "More Guns!" Seriously, how many guns would be enough?

More guns would've been nice for the victims as most of them were unarmed at the time of the attack.

Too bad we are starting to hear reports that some of the casualties might have been inflicted by friendly fire.

Got a source on that?

Rubberanvil wrote:
Too bad we are starting to hear reports that some of the casualties might have been inflicted by friendly fire.

Got a source on that?

This saddens me to no end.

Copperas Cove ( the city that Boarders Ft. Hood ) is my Home town, I grew up there off and on over several tours there with my Dad during his 22 years in the Army. My Parents and my Brother still live there. My bother works on Hood and had just driving off the base as they were locking it down. Hood is an enormously sprawling base. It speaks to Strength and power, to courage and dedication and service by the US military to the people of America. I was in High school in Oct of 91 when a man drove a pickup truck into a Lubbys cafeteria in Killeen (my birth place and the other city that boarders Ft Hood) and killed 23 people, a few of which were parents of friends of mine. I went to a few funerals that week. No one had a gun with them that day but the shooter. We got countless stories of people escape from the shooting as well as accounts of the senseless execution of people unfortunate enough to be in his line of fire.

I was an Army Brat till I was 18, My wife is in the US Air Force. So to say I have an attachment to the men and woman who server in the US Military is a bit of an understatement. As others have mentioned, our soldiers do not bare arms unless they are training or in combat. With the exception of the law enforcement. During training the majority of times their weapons are the lazer training type with bank ammo and muzzle blockers installed. When they are in a live fire training at the range the ammo and weapons are fairly well controlled, but that's it. Our soldiers don't carry guns on base at home. I have know a few spec ops guys over the years who carry a pistol with them in uniform or in their vehicles at all time regardless of the laws in the states where they are stationed or base rules ( as far as I know its against military law for any one to carry a concealed weapon on base and such out side of military law enforcement) not condoning this just saying it happens.

I listened to the phone call with the shooters cousin, who claimed he did not even like going to the range to qualify with his weapon. Look everyone has to know how to shoot the weapons that they would be issued during combat every one is trained how to shoot. But for a lot on non-combat style jobs in the military that is the ONLY time a lot of these people ever touch a weapon. A shrink isn't going to be doing patrols with ground pounders, yes he may be at their base but not in a squad clearing homes and buildings. SO he doesn't get the same specialized training with a weapon that and infantry men does. SO to say he did not like going to the range has to be crap or he was getting training else where to hit the amount of people he did with the reloading he had to do regardless of the crowded environment. The apparent accuracy he had, seems to speak to some decent level of pistol training to reload and reacquire and successfully engage targets.

The shooter killed 13 and wounded 30. That's 43 bullets! The news said he had 2 pistols one of which was a semi-auto leaving the other as a revolver, 5-6 shots from that depending on what type of revolver. Between 7-15 or so in a standard pistol mag ( assuming he wasn't using an extended mag or 20 or so) all of that aside, Even IF he hit each person with a single round that is at least emptying the revolver and reloading the semi at least twice! I watched accounts on the news stating some people were shot several times. So that probably makes him reloading the semi 3 or more times minimum. What I am getting at is that this wasn't some spur of the moment snap buy a trained mental health professional who happened to be carrying a had gun. As he had 2 handguns and several mags of ammo. This was a premeditated,calculated act. Regardless of his religious or racial background as all of that has been rendered mute buy his cowardly actions. No way this gets whited out as a stress related brake or a fall out from harassment. You don't load up on ammo and go into a room full of people who are about to go off to war to get some payback for some one calling you a name or slurring your religion. My only guess to any rational explanation ( we are long pat rational here but) is that he was trying to symbolically "kill" the mechanism that was to deploy him to the war effort.

My heart goes out to the spouses and children of the fallen. You only go to these types of centers a short time before you leave your family. My hope is those that lost there lives took the time out, due to the knowledge they were leaving down range, to tell their loved ones what they felt and did some of the things that they wanted to do for that lasting memory. The family's were already emotionally stressed about the em pending deployment of their loved ones with the knowledge that they may not come home, but for them to be laid low at home in the "safe" place is devastating. I am sure there are civilian contractors ( some probably spouse of military members) among the dead all serving the military men and woman. Currently it appears a 19 year old civilian contracted police woman is responsible for putting the madman down. Good show young lady, I hope she recovers from her wounds and goes on to server the public and the military community for a good long time. We need good hardworking dedicated Americans like her to protect our country.

The military does have the death penalty, I sure as hell hope they use it!

@Altered: They just said they're open to the possibility. They haven't said anything about it being likely yet.

An abundance of guns, in the hands of the people caught in the situation, almost certainly would have saved lives. It was an officer with a gun that stopped the rampage.

On the other hand, rare incidents can not be the only thing dictating the base's policy. The concept of "rampage defense" seems really important right after it happens, but probably isn't very important all things considered.

Captain Vyper wrote:
You don't load up on ammo and go into a room full of people who are about to go off to war to get some payback for some one calling you a name or slurring your religion.

Its happened before. There's no reason to assume that wasn't the case here.

Orkeosaurus wrote:@Altered: They just said they're open to the possibility. They haven't said anything about it being likely yet.

Um... that's what I said?

An abundance of guns, in the hands of the people caught in the situation, almost certainly would have saved lives. It was an officer with a gun that stopped the rampage.

Yes, a civilian officer with a firearm stopped the rampage. Nobody is psychic though, and even with a room full of armed soldiers, none of them would be 100% on watch, all the time, in an auditorium, for a graduation. Its not like the murderer would wear a giant "I AM THE GUY THAT YOU SHOULD KILL" sign on him. Honestly, there is no argument for more/less guns, the scenario could go either way with either concept.

Let's be clear, I am not for more or less guns, I am questioning the funtrain that revs up for both sides when it logically wouldn't matter, or is relevant. Murder happens, friendly fire happens, an abundance of guns, or the lack thereof, wouldn't change that. Whether or not it happened here, as you so succinctly echoed me, is being investigated.

My hope is that none of that happened, because thats a hard pill to swallow for someone trying to make sense of it all.

Rubberanvil wrote:

Fifty wrote:This happened on a military base, and the answer mooted is still "More Guns!" Seriously, how many guns would be enough?

More guns would've been nice for the victims as most of them were unarmed at the time of the attack.

Accidental gun injury and death goes up hand in hand with the prevalence of guns. Give everyone a gun and you MAY lower shooting crime (Or it will rise due to the prevalence of sidearms in crimes of passion and more general emotionally charged crimes such as assault which are typically far less damaging or fatal without the presence of firearms) but you will definitely experience more accidental deaths. Likely more so than you save as the cavalier idea of a self policing populace has never in mankind's history worked. Likely considerably more so than you save due to the greatly increased number of likely shootouts between multiple parties untrained in armed combat in civilian areas (all that police training has a purpose). It's statistically a net negative.

Though I'm surprised that there were seemingly few armed and able responders in a military base, though it being the largest of its kind in america it's more of a large town.

Altered_Soul wrote:Um... that's what I said?

It seemed like you were putting more weight on the statement than I would have. Sorry if I got the wrong impression.

Yes, a civilian officer with a firearm stopped the rampage. Nobody is psychic though, and even with a room full of armed soldiers, none of them would be 100% on watch, all the time, in an auditorium, for a graduation. Its not like the murderer would wear a giant "I AM THE GUY THAT YOU SHOULD KILL" sign on him. Honestly, there is no argument for more/less guns, the scenario could go either way with either concept.

I thought it was for a medical examination? But either way, it's the kind of thing where everyone being armed wasn't really likely simply on account of most people not wanting to carry a gun everywhere. So it would have been great if everyone had a gun, just like it would have been great if everyone caught in the rain had brought an umbrella, when it looked like it was going to be sunny. (In reality, it was good one person brought an umbrella that a lot of people were able to huddle under.)

Let's be clear, I am not for more or less guns, I am questioning the funtrain that revs up for both sides when it logically wouldn't matter, or is relevant. Murder happens, friendly fire happens, an abundance of guns, or the lack thereof, wouldn't change that. Whether or not it happened here, as you so succinctly echoed me, is being investigated.

I agree with you in a sense, but only looking at things over all; I think this is a situation where more guns would have helped and there are situations where it would have hurt. I'm not so familiar with the policies of a military base to say that they were flawed; after all, you hedge your bets on this sort of thing, and the best policy will still fail some of the time.


(Also, I edited my original post as you responded, for those wondering.)

No problem Orkeo, I figured, but what's the point of being on the internet if I can't douche it up a bit.

As for the topic at hand, I might be getting a little BS here by saying this discussion is exactly what I think should have been avoided, hence the comment on the arrival of the gun rights funtrain.

Its the whole fable of putting ten skilled swordsmen in a room who don't know each other, but one of them is the enemy. The blade is blind, but the wielder blinder.

/sensei, I need to drink

RIP guys, and the US should check their troops regurlary( because of PTS and similar)

Altered_Soul wrote:Its the whole fable of putting ten skilled swordsmen in a room who don't know each other, but one of them is the enemy. The blade is blind, but the wielder blinder.

Gotta love Genestealer Mafia.

r3n3g8b0y wrote:RIP guys, and the US should check their troops regurlary( because of PTS and similar)

Yeah, Trust me when I say we get checked so much that ive considered beating the face in on the next guy that shows up for a re-evaluation cause they are worse then the bible beaters that show up every saturday.


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