Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Albatross wrote:Eh? Where did I state that that all Americans feel that way? Some Americans (in this very thread) feel that way, and I think it's ridiculous. What's wrong with that? How are you showing respect for MY beliefs?

You're attacking flaming Americans. Seriously get off it or the Modquisition will restart. While light banter is just fine, we do not permit continuing attacks based on nationality on this board. Others have been suspended for similar behavior. You can argue positions vehemently just as MeanGreenStompa just did without violating this Rule, however, you're statements are falling into the area of generally attacks.

you're statements are falling into the area of generally attacks.

Please identify where I made a general attack on America/Americans via PM if you'd prefer to keep it off this thread. I've seen plenty of Anti-British/Atheist/liberal sentiment that goes beyond 'friendly banter' on this forum - funny how 'The Modquisition' never seems to show up as often in these instances. If pointing that out gets me suspended, then that's your call. But that isn't what I WANT to happen.

If anyone was offended by the post in question, perhaps they should ask themselves why...

Albatross wrote:

you're statements are falling into the area of generally attacks.

Please identify where I made a general attack on America/Americans via PM if you'd prefer to keep it off this thread. I've seen plenty of Anti-British/Atheist/liberal sentiment that goes beyond 'friendly banter' on this forum - funny how 'The Modquisition' never seems to show up as often in these instances. If pointing that out gets me suspended, then that's your call. But that isn't what I WANT to happen.

If anyone was offended by the post in question, perhaps they should ask themselves why...

Its public because I didn't suspend you. if its private it means you're getting a warning or a suspension. As policy we don't talk about suspensions/bans on other posters but they have indeed occurred on both sides.

I believe what just got blurred here was Albatross was referring to the implied world opinion of the Bush administration/far right republican previous government of the USA as being isolationist and aloof and unwilling to show diplomatic consideration. Further that there are some in the US who wholeheartedly support that, as opposed the notion of affording civility to another world leader based on the customs of the land you are visiting in order to foster better relations and portray your nation as an understanding and tolerant one.

That there is a misunderstanding between
a) not bowing to show that the US is a strong nation with no yoke about it's neck and isn't at the mercy of old imperial powers a'la 'don't tread on me'

vs

b) realising that in the nation of Japan, people bow to one another in the same way the western cultures shake hands and that by bowing, the leader of a western culture expects 1) a bow in return and 2) that it is clear to both parties that it is a greeting and not a mark of submission.

I think perhaps Albatross got missread and then got somewhat defensive.

Being in a relationship with an American girl, I am somewhat sensitive to hearing 'yank-bashing' and I'm afraid it's the poorly phrased sentence that says 'I hate what America has done here' rather than 'I hate what the [****] administration has done here'.

I have to tell you US guys that that's the price of being the superpower, we got it in the neck for several hundred years (especially from the Frenchies who were just jealous) and now you get to dominate the world stage and get criticism from the peanut gallery...(but like I was saying, it's sniping about administrations, world policies etc and not personal, just not well constructed).

Now, could we return to the debate at hand?

Albatross wrote:

you're statements are falling into the area of generally attacks.

Please identify where I made a general attack on America/Americans via PM if you'd prefer to keep it off this thread. I've seen plenty of Anti-British/Atheist/liberal sentiment that goes beyond 'friendly banter' on this forum - funny how 'The Modquisition' never seems to show up as often in these instances. If pointing that out gets me suspended, then that's your call. But that isn't what I WANT to happen.

Do you know why you don't see the anti-britsh/atheist stuff much? It's because I've been banned 3 times . But if you want me to start talking about the 1984 british nanny censor state made reality some more I'll be happy to do it in PM or AIM where Frazzled can't hurt us.

Its public because I didn't suspend you. if its private it means you're getting a warning or a suspension. As policy we don't talk about suspensions/bans on other posters but they have indeed occurred on both sides.

I just sent you a PM back about one such issue!

You're attacking flaming Americans.

As an American I feel pretty similarly to how he does. The xenophobic inanity that erupted about Obamas secret Muslim life and his bowing to foreign powers once in office was incredibly overplayed in conservative media. I saw his comments as more of an attack on certain Americans. The kind that deserve to be punched in the face repeatedly until their upper palate cracks and they stop breathing. But then I'm a traditionalist.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Now, could we return to the debate at hand?

Only if you can remind me what the debate was again...

Frazzled wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Now, could we return to the debate at hand?

Only if you can remind me what the debate was again...

Games workshop overpowers new plastic kits in codexes so that they sell better and make back their mould cost quickly.

This bodes well for the eventual release of plastic Grey Knights.

Gitzbitah wrote:This bodes well for the eventual release of plastic Grey Knights.

Unless they're anything like chaos spawn or the tau manta. It's all just a fabricated hatefest against GW, there's really no visible trend. Besides after Cruddace makes the tyranids unbeatable it might as well all be plastic.

Ah so now I understand Republicans obsession with the Second Amendment.

If I was this insecure, I would need a gun as well!

Shuma / Gitzbitah
Wait is there a technical glitch here and we're getting cross posts from another thread?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

IntoTheRain wrote:Ah so now I understand Republicans obsession with the Second Amendment.

If I was this insecure, I would need a gun as well!

Its to protect them from the Democrats who want to abrogate every other amendment.
See that statement is as stupid as the one quoted.

If someone demands that the President bows to them, the President should tell them to feth off.

However, that's really not what's going on here. It's just people greeting each other. If your friend asks nicely for some spare dirt and water, you don't have to go kick them into a well.

Maybe he should have stuck with the handshake if he sucks at bowing, but I don't think it really matters. It's not like the Japanese are going to be thinking "Yess... America has knelt before our God-Emperor! Now they will serve us! Bwahaha..."

Orkeosaurus wrote:

If your friend asks nicely for some spare dirt and water, you don't have to go kick them into a well.

You don't? (looks in well) "er...sorry!"

Orkeosaurus wrote:If your friend asks nicely for some spare dirt and water, you don't have to go kick them into a well.

Must resist, must resiiiiist.

I guess then its proper to hold hands and be all gruff about it.

This thread is the reason I don't vote. Listening to the opinions of others, I find I can agree with both sides of the argument.
I tend to find myself on the fence, I just cannot make a decision, and I am not a "lesser of two evils" type of guy.

I consider myself part of the Gonzo Party, but the last time someone ran on that ticket was 1976. Before I was born.
That being said, I am probably not going to stick around for the rest of this conversation. I don't rally have much to contribute...

tblock1984 wrote:This thread is the reason I don't vote. Listening to the opinions of others, I find I can agree with both sides of the argument.
I tend to find myself on the fence, I just cannot make a decision, and I am not a "lesser of two evils" type of guy.

I consider myself part of the Gonzo Party, and the last time someone ran on that ticket was 1976.
That being said, I am probably not going to stick around for the rest of this conversation. I don't rally have much to contribute...

Vote Bull Moose. A vote for Roosevelt is a Vote for Freedom, and no one expects a Zombie a President.

I genuinely wish they'd include a 'none of the above' option on Votes.

I know others will disagree with me, and yes it is very much wasting your vote, but I consider it wasted in a constructive manner, as opposed to a) Just not voting (waste of Democracy!) or b) spoiling your Ballott

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I genuinely wish they'd include a 'none of the above' option on Votes.

I know others will disagree with me, and yes it is very much wasting your vote, but I consider it wasted in a constructive manner, as opposed to a) Just not voting (waste of Democracy!) or b) spoiling your Ballott

QFT

Interestingly that would still have led to a black president in the White House...

I saw his comments as more of an attack on certain Americans.

Exactly. I have no reason to attack America - I love many aspects of american culture, and as a scholar of music, being anti-American would certainly hamper my study of popular music. Also, there are Americans in my family! But certain Americans give the USA a bad name, just as certain Brits give us a bad name. That's all I was saying.

I think perhaps Albatross got missread and then got somewhat defensive.

QFT. Ok, I hold my hands up - I might have over-reacted a wee bit. I just hate it when people twist my words and intent.

Albatross wrote:

QFT. Ok, I hold my hands up - I might have over-reacted a wee bit. I just hate it when people twist my words and intent.

See, this is how fights start, noone 'twisted' your words, you wrote something and someone else read something different.

Written word is a bitch, the sentence i wrote above this one was written with me hearing it in my head as me saying it in a casual and friendly way, but you might read it and hear patronisation. 99% of fighting on dakka or anywhere on the webs is a result of the full meaning not being conveyed or being conveyed in a different tone in the reader than in the writer.

You got defensive...because you read others attacking you...because they got defensive...because they read you attacking them.


peace man...

@MGS - Peace, totally - not trying to start gak!
What I meant was I overreacted because I was accused of an Anti-American attack, which my statement wasn't, and wasn't intended to be - as several people (including your good self) rightly identified.
I FELT that my intent had been twisted and y'know, went 'off on one'. We all do it!

But that's over now - I've taken up yoga and flower arranging....






Till next time.

Just kidding.

I dont like Obama very much, but i feel the US media over reacted. He was just being polite... theres no need to get your knickers in a twist lads!

Albatross wrote:@MGS - Peace, totally - not trying to start gak!
What I meant was I overreacted because I was accused of an Anti-American attack, which my statement wasn't, and wasn't intended to be - as several people (including your good self) rightly identified.
I FELT that my intent had been twisted and y'know, went 'off on one'. We all do it!

But that's over now - I've taken up yoga and flower arranging....






Till next time.

Just kidding.

QFT... Warning, rant initializing:

That is why I placed a disclaimer at the end of my post in the Christmas thread. I was afraid someone would call me out on the fact that I said I celebrate Christmas and Yule in the same sentence. I have been called a Satan worshiping hypocrite in the past... Not here on Dakka, but still, I am always cautious...

It really grinds my gears that I try to have an open mind to ALL beliefs, and if I celebrate Christmas and Yule/Solstice, that just means now TFG has two things to flame me about, not one...

But now I am afraid some one will read that disclaimer as an invitation to fight. I can't fething win... Sorry, today is a glass half empty day...

Wow, I got waaaay off topic... What is this thread even about again??? Oh, yeah, voting...

Damn, I go to work for a day and have to work even more when I get home!

dogma wrote:No there aren't, because it isn't an award which is given in that fashion. The Peace Prize is presented to whomever the Nobel committee feels is deserving, where desert is measured according to an exceptionally broad criterion.

True, but that doesn't mean more people aren't deserving. This we will have to agree to disagree, because this is more a matter of opinion than fact or reasoning...

dogma wrote:Pakistan is involved; pretending otherwise is foolish.

While I agree that Pakistan is involved, that was poor wording on my part, he shouldn't be bombing it. By killing innocent civilians, he is only contributing to the "Let's feth Team America" bandawagon

dogma wrote:It was fairly sound policy to begin with; though it will inevitably turn the conflict into a quagmire. But that was something that should have been considered before invasion. The desire for catharsis and political clout put us in that stupid mess.

Agreed again, but I was merely pointing out his involvement in a protracted conflict that he pledged to end. It was a retort to MGS blanket criticism on the Bush Administration

Albatross wrote: Which is why the Japanese bow to EACH OTHER - that's what happened. To not bow would be the equivalent of refusing to shake hands with a European leader. Obama seems to be more about respect for other cultures and not this ridiculous 'AMERICA BOWS TO NO-ONE!!!11!!!' crap that made so many people around the world hate the USA. I applaud him for it.

Well that's all well and good for you, but that doesn't make it ok. I am a traditionalist, and a classic liberal among other things, this bow spits in the face of over 200 years of tradition and attitude. Symbolism is more important than any of you realize...

MeanGreenStompa wrote:He was attempting to demonstrate understanding and respect for the monarch of the nation he was visiting, rather commendable and clearly superior than the ignorant and isolationist arrogance of the previous administration.

You mean the isolationism that built a strong political and personal relationship between President Bush and oh lets see: PM Tony Blair, PM Junichiro Koizumi, President Nicholas Sarkozy, Chancellor Angela Merkel, etc. Not to mention the billions he gave to Africa to help fight AIDs and which made him insanely popular in Sub-Saharan Africa. Oh my, how isolationist....

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Perhaps, but the right wing Fox 'News' loving rightwingaz would have hung him just as high if he'd have 'snubbed' the Nobel folks...

That is a matter of speculation, and I think they would have supported him in declining the award...but that is again a matter of speculation...

MeanGreenStompa wrote:He's been fighting to stablise the economy and one of the methods he's been employing is injections of money from the warchest to counter the fall. The difference your failing to grasp is that his is a battle to save the economy from the plight it's in, the previous administration enabled that plight to occur.

And as a previous voting senator he still bears some of that responsibility, not to mention the incredible amount of money his own administration has spent. The CBO reported that President Obama spent more in his first year in office then the Bush Administrations first 6 years combined.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:A state supported healthcare system, the basic principle of which is to provide care for the nation irregardless of their finances. Instead of rational debate all I see is foam-mouthed halfwits carrying placards showing the fething concentration camps and comparing him to a nazi.

That is all the media reports, because that sells news. I have been to several protests, mostly to take photographs and such, and I never saw any of the signs like you describe...

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Far as I can see, he's doing a good job with the big things, it's bs like 'he's a muslim' or 'he's not a real american' or 'he's a nazi' that's holding things back. Frankly I'm astounded by the behaviour of the right wing. How does he 'get the small things right' when the small things presented are mind-numbingly stupid attempts and infantile point scoring. He's doing far better by ignoring them.

Well I don't know anyone, other then some of my crazy, redneck cousins who say those things. Those people are the fringe of the conservative element of the US, just like the leftist protesters who compared GWB to Hitler are the fringe of the liberal movement...damn I hate those terms. You are only seeing what you are told, and not what is really happening. I am decidedly not right wing or left wing. My own personal political convictions don't sit well with most Americans, but I try to remain open minded, and I don't have a problem criticizing any politician or gasbag, its my right as an American to do so.

@Shuma: Sometimes your posts are just awesome....

JEB_Stuart wrote:Well that's all well and good for you, but that doesn't make it ok. I am a traditionalist, and a classic liberal among other things, this bow spits in the face of over 200 years of tradition and attitude. Symbolism is more important than any of you realize...

TBTH, I sort of understand what you are saying... but then again, not really. In a way, I see all this as apologizing for that whole... erm... Vomiting shrubbery thing...

Wrexasaur wrote:
TBTH, I sort of understand what you are saying... but then again, not really. In a way, I see all this as apologizing for that whole... erm... Vomiting shrubbery thing...

Bwahahaha, now that was just plain comedy gold.

this bow spits in the face of over 200 years of tradition and attitude.

Wow! 200 years! That's.....forever.

The Pub next to my house is older than that.

The Japanese have been bowing to each other for thousands of years, it is appropriate social behaviour when meeting someone for the first time, to show respect. The Emperor bowed to Obama too.

How does disrespecting other cultures make you a 'Liberal'?

Albatross wrote: Wow! 200 years! That's.....forever.

The Pub next to my house is older than that.

Wow! Nice troll! Way to compare the value of my country and one of its tradition to a restaurant...

Albatross wrote:The Japanese have been bowing to each other for thousands of years, it is appropriate social behaviour when meeting someone for the first time, to show respect. The Emperor bowed to Obama too.

Ok, so I explain why I am against it, and why many Americans are upset about it. I even give a damn good academic explanation, which is my reason for disapproving, and you still don't get it. Are you just intentionally ignoring my reasons, or do you just not understand reason?

Albatross wrote:How does disrespecting other cultures make you a 'Liberal'?

You obviously have no idea what I am talking about...try reading up on your Enlightenment philosophy, it might actually help you understand what I am talking about, why I am upset, and what I am saying...

Albatross wrote:

this bow spits in the face of over 200 years of tradition and attitude.

Wow! 200 years! That's.....forever.

The Pub next to my house is older than that.

Listen saxon... The town I grew up in was trading tin with the Phoenicians when Rome was a collection of mud hut farms on a hill and your people were still getting owned by terror birds and dire otters. What's your point?

(see, i can be nationalistically insensitive as well! )

...and waits for someone from China to show up and piss on everyone's chips...