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I have a distinct lack of knowledge ion this subject, like many brits I suppose, so at the moment I am ...meh! about it all.

At the moment I am more concerned that an extra £6 is going to make sure that sheep in rural can access porn and torrent sites. That the sciences and the arts are possibly going to loose access to funding due to cuts in public spending and i am wondering if our PM who sold our gold reserves when the market was low watches the adverts for cash for gold on TV. I wonder if my kids learn anything at school other than inappropriate touching is bad and that biscuits are bad?

..are you actually asking if politicians will say one thing and then do another..really ? Yes. THis happens all the time..Boris doinga fine job getting rid of that congestion is he.. oh.. wait.

"No raised taxes".... "I'm going to have to raise taxes".. things like that happen all the time, sometimes with good reason.

No, that wasn't what I was asking. If you'll read what I said again, 'I'll admit a manifesto is not legally binding in that sense, but do you see a government suddenly reversing their stances on such a prominent issue straight after election? Whilst they might not be legally bound to it, they would forced to it in the idea that they would be crucified in the court of public opinion and at the next elections if they didn't hold a referendum.'

If you don't live in his constituency you never will have, we don't elect the Prime mInister at all, never have done never will.

Really? Hot damn. Here was me thinking it was up to the public whether Cameron, Brown, or Clegg become Prime Minister at the next elections.

On a more serious tone, yes, we vote for the parties as opposed to a specific candidate, and the Prime Ministerial candidates are chosen by the parties, but ultimately, it is the decision of the public which of those candidates succeeds in taking the job.

A friend of mine said a while back that who was in charge didn't matter, as people voted for the party, not the Prime Minister. I'll agree that that used to be the case, but with the slow eradication of Cabinet responsibility, and the steady politicisation of the judiciary and police force, the position of Prime Minister has become more similar to that of the US President than ever before. Therefore the public should have a say in who wields that power. Not only that, but as the most visible figure of a party, people often do vote based on what the prime ministerial candidate is like.

No, nice try though. I'm arguing against your idea that all we have done is fight them/similar and using history to show this, We continue to trade and do business with Europe today.. right now even, far more so than any other area of the world. How much trade do you think we have with Australia compared to mainland Europe ? It's just simple geography more than anything.

I'm arguing here that our cultural ties serve to bind us more significantly to other nations, than trade does. To emphasise the point, if I go to France, buy myself a loaf of bread, and come back again, does that give me a greater connection to the French, than the Welsh bloke I enjoy a drink down the pub with? You might think so, but I would disagree.

Indeed, and I was answering your question by pointing out that politicans do indeed do a 180/similar over issues all the time.

the position of Prime Minister has become more similar to that of the US President than ever before.

err how ? Especially given the extra restraints that some MPS are trying to bring into affect withr eagrds to the PM#s position. If Blair was still in charge and trying to run the country from his sofa then I'd say you might have a point.. but we tried that and it didn't really seem to work very well. If anything the PM has less power than before, not least due to links and agreements with Europe.

I'd also argue it's more to do with the lack of any accountability in many public sector areas these days rather than just the cabinet, but that's a whole other thread.

I'm arguing here that our cultural ties serve to bind us more significantly to other nations, than trade does. To emphasise the point, if I go to France, buy myself a loaf of bread, and come back again, does that give me a greater connection to the French, than the Welsh bloke I enjoy a drink down the pub with? You might think so, but I would disagree.

That's not really anything to do with what is being argued here. By virue of having trade links with certain countries for X hundred years it has affected our culture in many many ways, especially in the last few decades as borders etc have changed or been opened. For example when you go and buy your loaf of bread, you might well buy a baguette or some pasta or .. well.. maybe not saurkraut... .. there are limits.. but sausages at least. What do youd rink at celebrations ? Champagne.. and where's that from again ?

Every Xmas in certain cities with universities and cathedrales there's a nice European market selling goods, which is part of the tradition and culture of the area. Just as most homes in Britain will have some form of Xmas tree... thanks to our European relations and a certain famous marriage.

I'll say again : we have cultural ties with countries in Europe that go back centuries, affecting every aspect of our lives, not least our language.

Now, I'm not saying that this automatically measn we should joyously march alongside them, as there are -- as I pointed out earlier-- still differences, some of which are insurmountable without radical changes. But that would be just the same if we were to form clsoer ties with the USA , the commonwealth or any such countries. And, I would say, I don't think those countries would perhasp want that much to do with us if we isolated and not involved in Europe in some fashion.

I'd also argue it's more to do with the lack of any accountability in many public sector areas these days rather than just the cabinet, but that's a whole other thread.

True. That would be an interesting debate to have, but it's far off topic of what we're discussing here.

That's not really anything to do with what is being argued here. By virue of having trade links with certain countries for X hundred years it has affected our culture in many many ways, especially in the last few decades as borders etc have changed or been opened. For example when you go and buy your loaf of bread, you might well buy a baguette or some pasta or .. well.. maybe not saurkraut... .. there are limits.. but sausages at least. What do youd rink at celebrations ? Champagne.. and where's that from again ?

Every Xmas in certain cities with universities and cathedrales there's a nice European market selling goods, which is part of the tradition and culture of the area. Just as most homes in Britain will have some form of Xmas tree... thanks to our European relations and a certain famous marriage.

I'll say again : we have cultural ties with countries in Europe that go back centuries, affecting every aspect of our lives, not least our language.

Since just about every point seems to have been settled, or argued to the point of simple agreement, let's try and conclude this one.

My initial statement way back was that 'Europe has no sense of shared unity or history with us'. I hereby retract that statement as ill thought out, and far too general and sweeping.

However, I still stand by my recent statement, 'I'm arguing here that our cultural ties serve to bind us more significantly to other nations, than trade does. To emphasise the point, if I go to France, buy myself a loaf of bread, and come back again, does that give me a greater connection to the French, than the Welsh bloke I enjoy a drink down the pub with?

I personally feel as if I have greater ties, and a much greater sense of connectedness to other areas of the world than I do to Europe.

..Wales is in Europe.. ... and whether or not said Welsh bloke spent his weekends burning down English holiday homes might affect that your relationship.. and if he was speaking Welsh or .... , but I get your drift.

I think what it might be is that we have more in common with the countries you listed due to a closer shared political and legal ideology ( unsurprising for former colonies or dependents of course) than we do with much of the rest of Europe, being innocent until proven guilty and so forth for example. And obviously that affects our day to day lives enormously as well, just on a different "scale" I think, one that tends to be less noticable generally and then, perhaps, more or very important at certain times in ones life.

But, overall, I'll take the septics over any of our of European allies anyday.

reds8n wrote:Champagne.. and where's that from again ?

California?

But, overall, I'll take the septics over any of our of European allies anyday.

Hooray!

Kilkrazy wrote:The answer to the original question is "conflicted".

After reading a whole page of 'stuff' I saw this. I loled.

Thank you, Kilkrazy!

Orkeosaurus wrote:California?

Only the really good stuff. You can get it on prescription there.

Hooray!

They're more easily fooled see.

Ketara, if you don't see the value of a diplomatic "go to" person for the Union, I don't know what to say to you. Yes, the salary is too high, many salaries are too high. And yes, the undemocratic nature of the selection is bloody awful. It's my belief that the best way for us to change these things is through full participation rather than widthdrawal though. The EU is an amazing institution that has accomplished far more good than ill. There are parts of it I disagree with, but more of it that I agree with, by far.

But, yeah, I respect your views too. British euroskepticism is interesting as hell to me though, because I can assure you that it's not shared by Irish people despite us being geographically even more isolated than you guys. This is probably because we benefited so much from membership- they spent a lot of money getting us to first world country status, and that is really appreciated. I love that about Europe, that it brings people up. I look forward eagerly to our future as a contributing nation who can help bring up the new member states.

Da Boss wrote: And yes, the undemocratic nature of the selection is bloody awful.

Democracy for the sake of democracy is one of the worst things that's ever been foisted on the world.

In some cases I would agree with you. In this case, however, I do not. The way the president is chosen is slowed.

To be perfectly honest, Ireland has gained a lot through the Union. Can see why it would be a great thing in your position.

However, to be perfectly, other than European goodwill, what tangible benefits do we receive? We don't use the Euro and have no intention of doing so. With the rebate considered, we're still paying in 2-3 billion pounds a year. The European Court of Justice often rides roughshod over all legal precedent in this country.

We get some small benefits back in terms of trade and the like, and travel within member states is pretty nifty, but is it worth a couple of billion a year? Debatable. This is not to say we should leave the EU altogether, but I feel that it is slowly mutating into the United States of Europe, and that is something I'll have no truck with.

And whilst you might see the President as a 'diplomatic go to person', his role is incredibly poorly defined. If you want to deal with a country, you should deal with that country. I disagree fundamentally on having foreign entities being able to speak on our behalf. Not only that, what if we are at odds with Europe on an issue? Do we have any say in the matter, or will we just be ignored if we're in the minority? If it's latter, than we are hardly an independent nation then, are we.

I don't have a problem with the EU as a whole. But it's potential for evolution and the slow steps we seem to be gradually taking towards the United States of Europe over the years troubles me. It may not be now. It will probably just be one small step at a time. So small they're barely noticeable. But in a hundred years time, the United States of Europe will end up becoming a reality, and people will wonder how they never noticed it happening.

That's why I say a line has to be drawn at some point in the near future, otherwise the United States of Europe WILL become a reality.

it just seems like anyone can believe anything...politicians are such vermin i cant even lean anywhere with regards to the worms that make our minds up.... is that confusing? .... yeah... my brain hurts...

Ketara, just to point out- the European Court of Justice is seperate to the EU.

Interesting. I just looked it up, and you're completely correct. Apparently it's the offshoot of a treaty signed with 'The Council of Europe', an organization of which I have never even heard of until this moment. They even share the same flag.

The Council of Europe and the European Union are based on the same values and pursue common aims with regard to the protection of democracy, respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms and the rule of law. These common aims have led the Council of Europe and the European Union to develop a very tight network of relations and cooperation links


The fact that I've never heard of this organisation does not fill me with confidence though. I find it strange that I have never heard of an organisation that wields so much influence over our law. I wonder, is it down to my personal ignorance, the poor state of education today, or it being deliberately kept low profile?

Thanks for that clarification Da Boss, I've learnt something.

No problem, I was similarly confused on that point until recently enough- when I was unemployed during the first referendum I did a lot of reading and ended up learning a fair bit about how europe works. Boring stuff though, tbh.