How Do You Brits Feel About This?

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**JEB_Stuart**

With the passing of the Lisbon Treaty, do you Brits feel that further the further integration of the EU is a good thing or a bad thing? My friends from Europe and the UK are mixed in this issue. The Brits I know are generally against further integration into the EU, especially as they see it as being dominated by Franco-German interests, and they feel that they are more culturally aligned with the US then with Europe. Most of my European friends are evenly split. The French and Belgian citizens are not very big fans of these proposals to move toward further integration, whereas the Germans are very much in favor. Thoughts?

I thought this story might interest all of you as well:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6952426.ece

**Emperors Faithful**

What would further integration mean for the UK?

**JEB_Stuart**

Emperors Faithful wrote:What would further integration mean for the UK?

From what I can tell a diminished sovereignty and rule from Europe, the loss of the BPS, and so on. I am not sure though. I don't even know how I feel on the issue yet to be honest. I am really on the fence. I see the point in further integration: it makes a stronger and larger economy. But the part of me that sees the brilliant and wonderful traditions of each country, the languages, etc., I want those preserved. Many of my European friends though, excepting the Krauts of course, see their own culture slipping away in favor of a new "European" culture. The part of the article that really troubled me was the declaration by Javier Solana that it was foolish for any country in Europe to think it could act unilaterally anymore. That I see as a major encroachment on national sovereignty...

**filbert**

I'm not against European integration per se, what is the most frustrating is that virtually every other EU member state gave it's citizens a referendum to decide whether or not to accept the treaty. This hasn't happened in the UK and is a direct affront to our people as far as I am concerned.

**Emperors Faithful**

filbert wrote:I'm not against European integration per se, what is the most frustrating is that virtually every other EU member state gave it's citizens a referendum to decide whether or not to accept the treaty. This hasn't happened in the UK and is a direct affront to our people as far as I am concerned.

Hmmm. Good point.

**JEB_Stuart**

I heard that they didn't give the UK a referendum so they would guarantee its passage. I don't think every other country got a referendum. I thought Ireland was an anomaly.

**Emperors Faithful**

JEB_Stuart wrote:I heard that they didn't give the UK a referendum so they would guarantee its passage. I don't think every other country got a referendum. I thought Ireland was an anomaly.

Who's 'they'?

Are you saying Ireland is the only one who held a referendum?

**JEB_Stuart**

According to Wiki, only Ireland held a referendum on the subject. I don't really like that idea, and it doesn't really sit well with me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratification_of_the_Treaty_of_Lisbon

By they I was referring to the Labour Party, sorry about the lack of clarity.

**reds8n**

JEB_Stuart wrote: I don't think every other country got a referendum. I thought Ireland was an anomaly.

A few did, but not every country.

Overall I'm mixed about it.

The basic principle and idea of the EU and further co operation I'm very happy and keen on. The somewhat horrific hegemonic and corporation dominated reality strikes me as so far removed from what the ideal of the "union" that I keep looking round waiting for someone to yell "April Fool".

I think Britain is, geography aside even, in an odd position. The Channel has also been a representation of some of the cultural differences between us and (most of) continental Europe. Now those differences have lessened and changed a lot in the last 20/30 years... travel and music, shows, food etc etc does that. I still think we're culturally closer to the USA, but a HUGE part of that is language, it always tickles me how upset the French get ( they've walked out of certain meetings) when "English" is used as the default cross border language in Europe and in all likelihood will continue to do so. But, in general, we're closer in political view to Europe, especially with regards to views on what is and isn't a right, welfare systems, health care etc etc.

My major reservations are : The political and judiciary corruption in certain European countries make our ( and the USA) look like models of perfection and good graces. Almost angelic. And there's a whole bunch of legal worries I have, especially with regards to the Inquisitorial ( or Napoleonic

) style of justice much of mainland Europe has... I don't agree at all with having to prove my innocence.

**Emperors Faithful**

JEB_Stuart wrote:According to Wiki, only Ireland held a referendum on the subject. I don't really like that idea, and it doesn't really sit well with me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratification_of_the_Treaty_of_Lisbon

Why are you not comfortable with the idea of a referendum. To me it seems that, for a decision this massive, it's the only option.

**The Dreadnote**

...I'm pretty sure he's saying that he's not happy with the idea of only Ireland getting one. Icanhasreadingcomprehensionkthxbai.

**Emperors Faithful**

Then again...it is Wiki...

**Wolfstan**

The real frustrating thing for me is that there has been no proper discussion on the matter, nobody has taken the time to layout the facts for the general public. British business leaders don't help, one half says it's bad for jobs, the other half says it's great!! At least if the info was available in a format that joe public can understand, then it would help people to decide if was a good idea or not. Pros & Cons would be a good first step, but not in a Sun format!!

**JEB_Stuart**

I think wiki is pretty reliable on this type of info. And yes Dreadnote is right, I don't like the idea of all of those countries side-stepping what their people wanted. The EU definitely wanted to avoid the fiasco that happened in France and the Netherlands, which is precisely what happened again in Ireland. Major problems I see with discussing the Treaty, and by default further integration, are several things: legal clarity, questions to national sovereignty, judicial systems and standards (thank you Red for pointing that out), language, etc. Another problem is the incredible length and size of the damn thing. It is hundreds of pages long. Here is an interesting article I just read from the Independent, Irish version, and they lay out the basics, and they did say they were the only country to have a referendum by the people on the issue. The journalist did voice frustration over how the damn thing was hard to understand, nigh impossible, and incredibly complex.

http://www.independent.ie/special-features/your-eu/the-lisbon-treaty-for-dummies-1376340.html

**Emperors Faithful**

Emperors Faithful wrote:Then again...it is JEB...

Fixed it.

Just joking, mate.

**dogma**

A more integrated EU isn't particularly beneficial to the US, but it does reduce the number of future scenarios which we must account for.

Greater integration will force us to engage with them on equal terms if we are to remain relevant in the region. Solana's comment may seem like a blow to national sovereignty, but its really a simple statement of fact. It isn't as though any single, European nation is going to wage war any time soon.

Ideally, I would prefer the UK to have its misgivings, and work to maintain its independence; thereby maintaining a US foothold on the continent (if not the larger portion of it). That said, it will most likely benefit the UK to become a part of the EU; especially since the alternative is to become that much closer to the US (a relationship they will have far less control over). True, there is something to be said for the ability to play both sides (the US and the EU) against the middle, but that kind of thing inevitably falls apart absent a truly skillful leader (or in the event that one side loses interest). Gotta pick a side eventually, just a question of how long to wait.

Oh, as for the cultures of Europe. I don't care about those anymore than I care about any of the other cultures which have been wiped out over the course of history. Granted, I'm not European, so that's just my isolated opinion (I don't care about US culture either).

**JEB_Stuart**

You will pay dearly for your transgressions EF....very dearly....

Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Dogma: See I do love the cultures and diversity of Europe. Besides I have something of a personal stake in this. I will hopefully do my graduate and PhD work in Britain, and at that time will try to acquire dual citizenship for the UK and for the US. So this kind of concerns me and my future....

**mattyrm**

i feel like i have nothing in common with Europeans. Despite our differences in the British Isles and Ireland, i feel like it is the whole Island thing that has made us different. I can sit in the pub and have a good crack with Scots, Welsh, Irish, English and i think we all kinda like the same things, and have the same sort of identity. But soon as i cross the water to France i just dont feel as if we have anything at all in common with them, and im pretty sure its not just because of the language barrier. Were just.. different somehow.

**JEB_Stuart**

mattyrm wrote:Were just...superior somehow.

Fixed

**Kilkrazy**

I am pro-EU but not on the basis it is currently organised.

There is no democratic accountability. That makes it look like an extra layer of government got up at my expense for the purpose of providing cushy jobs for pols and civil servants.

Sociologically, the population of the UK is in between the USA and Europe. Our psychology is more left-wing than Americans and more right-wing than other western Europeans.

I'm not worried about losing culture because living cultures change all the time. Britain has "lost" culture to US and Australian TV shows.

**dogma**

JEB_Stuart wrote: I will hopefully do my graduate and PhD work in Britain, and at that time will try to acquire dual citizenship for the UK and for the US. So this kind of concerns me and my future....

In all likelihood at least half of my PhD work will be done in France. I have at least a marginal stake in how this shakes out, though admittedly a lesser one when compared to you; especially when considering the influence of England relative to France.

**Kilkrazy**

if you're worried about the prospect of EU stormtroopers kicking down your door with hobnail boots, don't.

The influence of EU policy on British laws has been greatly exaggerated.

We British are perfectly capable of making up pointless new laws by ourselves, without external prompting.

In a recent radio interview, the ex-Director of Public Prosecutions said that over 13,000 new criminal offences had been created by Parliament in the past 10 years. He said he had no idea what they all were and he doubted the police, judges or members of the public would know any better either.

**Ahtman**

JEB_Stuart wrote:I will hopefully do my graduate and PhD work in Britain, and at that time will try to acquire dual citizenship for the UK and for the US.

Jesus, how long is your dissertation going to take? You have to live there five years and intend to live there to apply for citizenship.

**dogma**

Kilkrazy wrote:if you're worried about the prospect of EU stormtroopers kicking down your door with hobnail boots, don't.

No, I'm more concerned with visa regulations.

**Albatross**

Personally, I think it would make more sense to foster closer economic ties with the US, Australia, NZ and Canada - the EU needs us more than we need it, IMO. Britiain is wealthier and more powerful than most of the other member-states put together. I think this is why we haven't had a referendum, as The EU without Britain is somewhat of a lame duck. If it remained similar to how it is now, I wouldn't have much of a problem with it - the Tories say they are going to give us certain guarantees on law-making, defence and sovereignty in general. We also need to keep our permanent seat on the UN security council.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Jeb - Come on over mate! I'll put the kettle on.

**SilverMK2**

I would be happy to retain the ecconomic ties to the EU, but I do not want to become part of any kind of super state, getting our laws from overseas.

Ideally we need far less government than we have at the moment anyway, not more. Especially not as it is now, where they are not really accountable to anyone or anything.

I would also have liked to be able to vote on whether or not we were going to join in the giant free hand out to politicians, and massive drain on citizens that is the EU. I am pretty sure that if asked, most people would have voted to stay clear of political union in Europe.

**Wolfstan**

I don't know how true that is and how do we really compare it? You can't really compare like for like. Countries like Norway & Sweden have higher taxes, but their welfare state is supposed to be way better than us. I think the UK is caught in between two cultures. We like the idea of the capitialist market place, but we have a social conscience.

Me? I think we have more in common with our European neighbours than the US. I like the French attitude of "we are going to do it and don't care what you think". The Germans / Austrians have pride in their surroundings and take responsibility for them. The Spainish are laidback and the Italians are loud and passionate (whithout the rage). I could go on, but won't list all of Europe.

**Ahtman**

Wolfstan wrote:I like the French attitude of "we are going to do it and don't care what you think". The Germans / Austrians have pride in their surroundings and take responsibility for them. The Spainish are laidback and the Italians are loud and passionate (whithout the rage). I could go on, but won't list all of Europe.

You just listed the US, only we aren't separate countries. Plus we have these:

We are the total package.

**Albatross**

OMG - Tell me you people don't actually EAT that stuff!

**Wrexasaur**

Lolwut?

Don't make me press this issue

.