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@Mercer

Your mastery of the English language has to do with the use of a double negative which makes your statement the opposite of what you intended to say. You tried to say that I do not know tactics but instead you stated I do know tactics and on that you are correct.

C'Tan shine in 5th because it is a Close Combat heavy edition. The beauty of their speed, which even if it was true that they are detrimentally slow(which it is not), is that you don't have to get close to the enemy. In many cases the enemy is going to be getting close to you. And for Necrons this is increasingly beneficial. Necrons play defensively, always have, and IF a C'Tan on the board keeps your opponent at bay this is to your advantage. Often the best tactic is to put your C'Tan out First as the Spear head and allow your opponent to react. This works very well, as they will either try to strike first, and fail or fall back and shoot(still a tactical fail). C'Tan Inv. saves and uber-high toughness allow them to weather fire, but any General worth their salt will know that you have to adjust your tactics for each opponent and redeploy when necessary.

I have NEVER said that C'Tan are unstoppable despite your claim that they are unplayable. C'Tan are VERY tough and super survivable. 90% of all weapons in the entire GAME are incapable of harming them.

I have probably used the transport ability of my Monoliths, maybe twice in 8 years. Monoliths are better served as disruption units, and heavy weapons platforms.

I know how to use them and use them well. I have NEVER phased out and have very rarely ever lost. I've played the 'Crons since they were released in 3rd edition. So I would be willing to bet that most would agree I must be doing something right. You seem to have been incapable of ever winning with them, so I'd be willing to wager that you were doing something wrong.

Having played a good number of games across the board from a C'Tan, I must say, they are a rather worthwhile unit. This being said, methinks your count is way too low to be survivable at that points level... You've got way too low a phase-out number, and your volume of firepower isn't going to be enough to keep the enemy from unloading on you at a distance, and you've got no way to tie up units in CC. Wraiths are an excellent pick for this, I might point out... they might get kicked if they're severely outnumbered, but they'll lay down the hurt and keep those crucial long-ranged infantry squads (Devs, Havocs, Oblits, IG HWS, and the like...) from being able to reach out and subject your available 'crons to the Bad touch that they are more than capable of hitting from almost any part of the board, and without some form of insurance policy (Tomb spiders, Lord with rez orb, monolith), your chances of standing back up get slimmer and slimmer.

If you played that list against me, then you'd quickly find that I would be ignoring your C'tan outright, and pushing for a phase-out by dumping as much high-strength firepower into your necron units as possible. Battle cannons, Demolisher cannons, Lascannons, even Meltaguns and Krak missiles start to become an issue at range, as they make your Warriors, and in the case of the Demolisher, Destroyers/heavy destroyers, piles of scrap pretty quickly. Having played against my buddy, I know that 1 thing is certain when playing necrons: Keep them from getting back up. Power weapons, Oblits, Defilers, and Vindicators will all take a massive toll if not kept in check, and even with it's base setup, there are going to be very few answers to a trio of Defilers or Oblit cults... especially with the original list posted... heavies can't reliably deal with them without eating a mass of fire, and if someone brings Daemonically Possessed LRs to the party... well... you're pretty well screwed, as you're not packing enough firepower to be effective.

I'm probably boring you at this point, but I figured I'd give my $.02 on the subject.

necron lord i lost with necrons a handful of times, they're not a exactly hard army to use. again you state incorrect facts by saying i was incapable of winning with them. have you played against me with necrons? have you seen me play? answer is no so how can you come to that conclusion.

c'tan are slow. fact. they can only run which doesn't gurantee another 6" move. as i keep saying, which you do not pick up on, is c'tan are awesome in combat. its just getting them there. any player also isnt going to come to you when you have a t8 monstrous creature which also ignores invulnerable saves, right?

actually i think i lost my nightbringer once, which was against a old necron player. he used the same tactics i would, gun it down from afar with anti tank weaponary. by the time it made it into combat it had one wounded left and got killed by a avatar. so c'tan are easy to kill. fact speed is there weakness, they're far from fast, why would you think that?

i've proven enough why c'tan arent that good, speed is there enemy. once in combat they rule. so i'm just going to agree to disagree, but if you want to keep showing your lack and poor character by insulting me and presuming things all the time then go ahead. though i am pretty sure we had this discussion on warseer a few months ago. please read what i say and stop presuming and making up things without the facts.

You are the one incapable of comprehentsion. You enjoy chiming in in every tactics thread to state incorrect 'facts'. Your advice and tactica has always been that there is only one way to win with Necrons and that is to use them as 'count as' marines. Your poor tactica, lack of rules knowledge, and negative opinion of Necrons is not welcome or required. If you insist on continuing to shout lies about Necrons and the uber-powerful C'tan I will continue to shout back.

I have NEVER said that C'Tan are unstoppable despite your claim that they are unplayable. C'Tan are VERY tough and super survivable. 90% of all weapons in the entire GAME are incapable of harming them.

But the remaining 10% of the weapons destroy it quickly.

wuestenfux wrote:

I have NEVER said that C'Tan are unstoppable despite your claim that they are unplayable. C'Tan are VERY tough and super survivable. 90% of all weapons in the entire GAME are incapable of harming them.

But the remaining 10% of the weapons destroy it quickly.

Not particularly.... most weapons that can reliably put wounds on the thing are either too short-ranged to be safe, of don't fire enough shots to do the job quickly, and as we're here to work on the list presented by the OP, those shots would be put to better use slaughtering Necrons and ignoring the C'Tan, as the Phase Out number is 35 casualties, all of which are single wound models no higher than T5.

Why waste the shots on the C'Tan?

Well, to start there's a whole host of lists that are CC intensive, and those lists don't have a choice but to come to you, C'Tan or no. Even a mixed CC-ranged list can't afford to ignore half their units to just sit back, since at that point they'll get hosed by the destroyers. So the fact that guys might want to ignore the C'Tan doesn't mean they'll be successful at doing so - you almost can't engage those Destroyers properly with a C'Tan anchoring the board center without first dealing with the C'Tan.

The only lists that actually represent the threat you suggest are honest-to-goodness gunlines, and specifically one's with a very healthy leavening of long range dakka. Those lists aren't really that common any more though, not with the advent of the age of transport melta. I wouldn't say that kind of gunline a huge downside for the list anyway, since the handful of guns that will really demo the Destroyers will be the first to go, or at least get shaken. The gunline should do just fine, but I think Dronze there is being optimistic about how much killing he's going to get done. There's also the problem of deployment, unless shortrange stuff deploys center then the Crons can just redploy to the other flank and deny a couple of rounds of , say, LRD fire.

Anyway, I think the tactics are more nuanced than people seem to think they are, both with the C'Tan and the list in general.

My vindicator poses enough of a threat at mid-table to dissuade my necron-playing buddy to steer clear of it. Pair it up with a squad of berzerkers in a LR on one of the far ends and a LC toting dread on either flank, and he's got no choice but to keep his C'tan where it can deal with the berzerkers if it needs to. Combined with deepstriking Oblits, or a pair of defilers with an overlapping field of fire, and yes, verginia, you can maneuver to rain S8 AP3/S7 AP2 pie plates on their troops, no matter where they may end up The Walkers produce a pretty nasty no-go zone for Monoliths, and can outrange the Heavies for at least turn 1, not to mention that without disruptor fields, they're effectively useless against either of the walkers. The C'tan is not a pressing threat, and can be avoided or rendered useless too easily. The points would be much better spent on something that will, at the very least, increase the survivability of the handful of legitimate necrons that are being fielded in this list.

All he has to do is deploy the C'tan in between the Berserkers and his Necrons (usually in the middle). This list has more than enough shooting to shake even pop a Vindy or a Defiler, and the range is just fine to engage either. Keep in mind he gets to redeploy with the Deciever, so your deployment is less helpful than in other games. You only have a handfull of guns that will really cripple the Destroyers, and those guns aren't that hard to silence.

I'm not saying he'll win every game mind you, or even that the Necrons are a 'better' list, just that he actually has a lot more tools to deal with what you bring to the table than you seem willing to admit to. I'd quite happliy play this Necron list against what you suggest you'd play and I'd feel pretty good about being able to grind out a win too.

Fenris-77 wrote:All he has to do is deploy the C'tan in between the Berserkers and his Necrons (usually in the middle). This list has more than enough shooting to shake even pop a Vindy or a Defiler, and the range is just fine to engage either. Keep in mind he gets to redeploy with the Deciever, so your deployment is less helpful than in other games. You only have a handfull of guns that will really cripple the Destroyers, and those guns aren't that hard to silence.

I'm not saying he'll win every game mind you, or even that the Necrons are a 'better' list, just that he actually has a lot more tools to deal with what you bring to the table than you seem willing to admit to. I'd quite happliy play this Necron list against what you suggest you'd play and I'd feel pretty good about being able to grind out a win too.

I'm not suggesting that it will be a hugely easy walk in the park win, but you can't shake or stun a Defiler (thank you daemonic possession), and I never take my Vindicator without it, either. From what I've seen, the list would do well to bear in mind that if you only manage to take out 7 models per turn, then phase out happens in turn 5. I want that C'tan in with my Berzerkers, it means that it's not off screwing around with anything else. With that one close combat, it's out of the game, more or less, and can be readily avoided, allowing my big guns to actually deal with the more important bodycount. The berzerkers exist to be a threat that needs to be answered, or else you run the risk of them either taking a massive chunk from your headcount when they get in to assault. They will invariably tie up/destroy whatever they come into contact with, with the exception of the C'tan, and if they're in with the C'tan, then their job is done, anyways... deepstrike the termies that the bezerkers are borrowing the LR from, and you've got yet another legitimate threat to your body count that has to be answered, before they get into CC with your bodies that actually matter.

The C'tan, as previously stated, is a powerful unit, yes, but in the face of a mixed gunline, or anything that can keep a necron from standing back up, it's not the best choice. A rez orb, and/or a veil would work wonders here, as it would allow you to pull the squad out of any hairy predicaments that they might end up in, and at least one monolith will allow you to better stand your necrons back up, as the teleportation lets them actually re-roll their failed WBB, brining the success rate up to a solid 75% from the previous 50%.

I think that, in this list, the C'tan could be replaced with something that lends itself more to the survivability of the list... I've got no issue with destroyers, and the list is a good start, but there are some major issues that need to be addressed with this situation.

The Deciever can leave combat though, so you're not going to tie him up with the Berserkers unless that's what the Necron player wants. As for the DP on all your tanks, that does certainly make things a little more touch and go, but with 9 heavy destroyers he's going to do some damage regardless. All three of those are pretty much one WD result away from not being of any use against such a fast list, so he doesn't even have to destroy them get the job done. I do play Necrons, so I understand the WBB math, I'm just trying to look at tactics for the list he has posted.

I'd probably run this list a couple of times with a Res Orb Destoyer Lord, just to see how it worked, but I don't think it's necessary. I think the redeploy and some canny movement will do a decent job limiting your ranged opportunities.

Fenris-77 wrote:Hmm. The fact that you dodn't remember key C'Tan rules probably means you're not currently best equipped to say much about their tactical value in an edition you have yet to try them for. No insult meant there either, it's just a fact - if you haven't played them and don't remember all the rules, then the best you can offer is a fuzzy guess as to their usefulness.

As for Lootas, you're overstating the case by a huge margin to assume that anyone who takes them will take three squads. I see two quite often, but three really isn't all that common in the tourney scene I've been a part of. You'll just have to trust me that a lack of highly skilled and gleefully cheeseball Ork players isn't the reason for that either.

Oh, and your BB probably changes the flag on your posts because all email sent via BB gets routed through the Waterloo relays (or whatever the tech guys call those things). Interesting.

OK, maybe it is an important rule, and yes I forgot about it, I am sorry I cannot remember every rule in every codex lol. I do my best to read all the various rulebooks, just so I know my enemies, but it is a lot of information to keep at the front of one's mind constantly.

As far as the loota's not being put out in large squads x3, well I myself would NEVER take less then 15 in a squad, and if I am taking one squad, I am taking 3.

Thanks, I wondered what was up with my BB lol.

Don't sweat the rules man, no one remembers them all. I was just saying that with some missing pieces rules-wise your commentary wasn't what it could have been.

And if you're taking 45 lootas in 3 squads (when you take them at all) you're a bad boy. And atypical too, since most all-comers tourney lists aren't going to take 3 units at all, never mind 45 total.

Agonisers will take down a C'tan fairly easily, considering an Archon has a higher weapon skill and initiative, it wouldn't take alot to down one in CC.

You are the one incapable of comprehentsion. You enjoy chiming in in every tactics thread to state incorrect 'facts'. Your advice and tactica has always been that there is only one way to win with Necrons and that is to use them as 'count as' marines. Your poor tactica, lack of rules knowledge, and negative opinion of Necrons is not welcome or required. If you insist on continuing to shout lies about Necrons and the uber-powerful C'tan I will continue to shout back.

I hardly go in the tactica forum, I go in the army list forum a lot. the two are very different.

look man, whatever. if you thin k c'tan are good then fine. once again you fail to read as i've said on more than one occasion that c'tan are awesome in combat, you even read that or just forgot with your goldfish memory?

what are you on about counts as marines? since when do marines have jetbikes? I said use destroyers. do you actually read what I put?

i'm just stating the facts. I know necrons and their rules well enough, do you honestly think moving 6" per turn plus run is fast? what exact lies am I shouting? that c'tan are slow?

so, once again, listen and read as your obivously not reading what I am putting. I am agreeing with you that c'tan are good in combat. I am saying they have problems getting there as they can only move 6" plus run, that's not fast. you want a c.c unit in combat asap, right? you don't want it taking ages to reach combat, yes?

so if you want to not read what I put and keep insulting me your just showing yourself up. perhaps seems my tactics and rules knowledge are so bad perhaps you'd like to point where, as I haven't mentioned anything about rules in this thread, or any tactics, if any. or you can keep slagging people off and not reading what I say and shouting from the roof top c'tan are uber and best unit in the game and nothing can take them down :p. obivously if you think c'tan are ace you possibly don't play against various armies, you've already prooved this with lack of knowledge on ork lootas.

Exor wrote:Agonisers will take down a C'tan fairly easily, considering an Archon has a higher weapon skill and initiative, it wouldn't take alot to down one in CC.

Dude, seriously, you need a lot of agonisers to get that job done. Keep in mind all your ICs go pop first turn since they won't kill the C'Tan in one round and he ignores all their saves and insta-kills them. There's not enough sqaud mounted Agonisers left in a DE list to get the rest of the work done. Not when you only get one per squad anyway. I suppose you could try running 3 or 4 squads in succession in, but that kind of plays into the Necron player's hands.

mercer wrote:

You are the one incapable of comprehentsion. You enjoy chiming in in every tactics thread to state incorrect 'facts'. Your advice and tactica has always been that there is only one way to win with Necrons and that is to use them as 'count as' marines. Your poor tactica, lack of rules knowledge, and negative opinion of Necrons is not welcome or required. If you insist on continuing to shout lies about Necrons and the uber-powerful C'tan I will continue to shout back.

I hardly go in the tactica forum, I go in the army list forum a lot. the two are very different.

look man, whatever. if you thin k c'tan are good then fine. once again you fail to read as i've said on more than one occasion that c'tan are awesome in combat, you even read that or just forgot with your goldfish memory?

what are you on about counts as marines? since when do marines have jetbikes? I said use destroyers. do you actually read what I put?

i'm just stating the facts. I know necrons and their rules well enough, do you honestly think moving 6" per turn plus run is fast? what exact lies am I shouting? that c'tan are slow?

so, once again, listen and read as your obivously not reading what I am putting. I am agreeing with you that c'tan are good in combat. I am saying they have problems getting there as they can only move 6" plus run, that's not fast. you want a c.c unit in combat asap, right? you don't want it taking ages to reach combat, yes?

so if you want to not read what I put and keep insulting me your just showing yourself up. perhaps seems my tactics and rules knowledge are so bad perhaps you'd like to point where, as I haven't mentioned anything about rules in this thread, or any tactics, if any. or you can keep slagging people off and not reading what I say and shouting from the roof top c'tan are uber and best unit in the game and nothing can take them down :p. obivously if you think c'tan are ace you possibly don't play against various armies, you've already prooved this with lack of knowledge on ork lootas.

Your only advice has been "...c'tan suck. the person above who is saying they're good isnt thinking straight..." or "A C'Tan is a big waste of points" Don't try and side step your negativity now. Getting into Combat is not a problem for ANYONE in 5th edition. And where the hell are you getting this idea that C'tan were good let alone even remotely playable in 4th edition? You keep claiming that C'tan being slow is their weakness *news flash* they were SLOWER in 3rd and 4th edition, also they were FAR more vulnerable to enemy fire, because Gunlines ruled over 4th edition. C'tan haven't become even remotely usable until 5th, where army books and rules allow your opponent to easily be in your face on turn 2 and 3. I'm not intimately familiar with the NEW Ork Codex? Sorry, I have a life, kids, and a job that keep me from sleeping with every codex and memorizing every word. You're one to talk after all since you were deploying Flayed Ones from reserve via the Monolith and arguing the point until I proved you completely utterly and TOTALLY wrong. Next!

OK guys, I am all for a good argument, but with respect to both of you we should keep this thread on target to assisting Reecius with his list. At this point neither of you is going to convince the other of anything so it is best to just let this one go. I will be the first to admit that I have contributed to the derailment of this thread, and as such I would like to direct it back on course.

I guess the best thing to say is go ahead and try this list as proxies maybe against friendly opponents until you get a real taste for the +/- using lords, c'tan and what have you. I look forward to seeing your results Reec!

Fenris-77 wrote:

Exor wrote:Agonisers will take down a C'tan fairly easily, considering an Archon has a higher weapon skill and initiative, it wouldn't take alot to down one in CC.

Dude, seriously, you need a lot of agonisers to get that job done. Keep in mind all your ICs go pop first turn since they won't kill the C'Tan in one round and he ignores all their saves and insta-kills them. There's not enough sqaud mounted Agonisers left in a DE list to get the rest of the work done. Not when you only get one per squad anyway. I suppose you could try running 3 or 4 squads in succession in, but that kind of plays into the Necron player's hands.

Could've been a fluke, but I took out a (slightly weakened) Nightbringer with a Wych squad. Hidden Agonizers are fun.