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UKIP passes themselves off as the more friendly to the people party, but they're not really that much less extremist than the BNP. They just do a better job at hiding it.

Albatross wrote:Except that the increased profile of the BNP HAS lead to a debate on the matter, increasing numbers of BNP voters is the main reason for this. Other people have voted for them, so we didn't have to - you can't pretend that New Labour would ever even release a statement that refers to white people specifically, let alone a policy. It has taken the horror of otherwise well-meaning British citizens voting for a National Socialist party to get to this point, as no other party was willing to talk about the white working-class community for fear of being branded racist. I fully expect to attract to attract the same criticism for this post.

A large majority of immigrants are white, the whole 'sponging-immigrants' think is load of , i'm white working-lower middle class, immigration helps the econamy, the majority of people that vote for the BNP or think immagration is crazy are not white working class but white lay about class. i go to uni in hull, the ones getting dole money every monday are of that group not so called 'spodging immigrants' they do jobs that no one wants for pay, then pay taxes and spend money in the UK, if you think that that is wrong you need to look at the big picture not the obscure detail the mail has put as a headline.

A large majority of immigrants are white

I think if you looked at the proportion of immigrants, you'd find more of them were of black, arabic, or asian origin than white. Sorry, but its true. There has been a large influx of Eastern Europeans of late, but half of them only work here for half the year and then go home. The sad fact is that the worse off countries in the world are those geographically located in the Middle East, and Africa. As such, the numbers of people from these areas willing to risk life and limb to attempt to smuggle themselves into the country are far greater than those of unemployed Poles.

i'm white working-lower middle class

Great, so am I.

immigration helps the economy

In a sustained, controllable environment, I would agree with you. As social groups move up the ladder, a new influx of immigrants is required to do all the jobs the other groups don't want to. This does not mean however, that throwing our countries borders open to all and sundry is good. Why?
1. Money being sent out of the country back to immigrants families in other nations.
2. A strain on the welfare, educational, and medical establishments, which aren't designed to cope with vast numbers of new families.
3. The possibility of creating racial tension.
4. The creation of a labour pool far excessive of what is required, leading to many unemployed people and a further strain on the welfare system.

the majority of people that vote for the BNP or think immagration is crazy are not white working class but white lay about class.

Whilst they garner a lot of their support from such areas, I think it would be foolish to label them all as such. You're decieving yourself if you think members of the upper and middle class can't be just as racist, sexist, anti-semitic, and homophobic as the 'layabout class'.

the ones getting dole money every monday are of that group not so called 'spoodging immigrants' they do jobs that no one wants for pay, then pay taxes and spend money in the UK

Whilst no doubt many immigrants pay their way, the simple fact is that many more do not. Especially in a recession where there are not even enough jobs for the native population, there is no guarantee a newly arrived family is able to find work, even should they be so inclined. As to spending money in the UK, see above point about sending money out of the country.

if you think that that is wrong you need to look at the big picture not the obscure detail the mail has put as a headline.

I read the Independent. And too often do the liberals relegate any kind of other thinking to the rubbish tip with a wave of the hand and a snide comment about the Daily Mail, as if that automatically proves the opposing argument wrong.
I read the Mail occasionally whilst at my parents, and it's a decent paper. It waxes lyrical about some unimportant issues, and inflates others at times, but when it comes to catching the government doing what it shouldn't be doing, I daresay there is no paper better. You should take what you read with a pinch of salt, but that applies to everything you read. The reason I prefer the Independent is because half the articles from there seem to be copypasta'd into the Mail the following day with a more right wing slant. But that far from makes it a bad paper, on an intellectual level it is miles above the Sun.

@katera- i have no problem with tighter control of illegal immigration.

immigration does not cause native unemployment
natives not wanting to do certain important but gak jobs causes unemployment.

also a lack of skill in certain areas requires immigration, if we needed nurses now we would get them from abroad instead of spending 3 years training people who have just been fired from a factory

Sorry Bluntman, but i have to coincur with Ketara, pretty much everything you wrote was absolute bollocks.

Sensible immigration helps the economy, importing people from some of the worst trouble zones in the world and paying for their upkeep when they cannot work does not.

filbert wrote:

Ahtman wrote:It sounds like spoiling is a way of doing nothing but feel like your doing something. Does the 'protest' actually change anything? Has it made the government/parties stop or pause in a meaningful way? A protest with no impact isn't really a protest is it? I don't know UK politics in detail so I am asking.

Simple answer: No

Slightly longer answer: No, because a spoiled ballot is simply not counted. The polling stations dont have the time or resources to investigate why that ballot is spoiled. For all they know, your protest of scribbling on the ballot is because you are illiterate.

wrong and wrong. Spoiled votes are counted in the UK. And if a significant number of them are counted beyond to point where they can't say was just a few numbskulls who didn't know where to write on the voting slip, there are serious repercussions.

@mattyrm i actually agree, i was talking about working immigrant, if the immigrants or refugees are not working then natives won't lose jobs will they. empoyment of certain groups of poeple will fall in the future, as production plants get more streamlined to save money, so if you want more labours in the working class with jobs you'll have to pay more for stuff, but then the vast majority of people will start to buy foreign cheaper products at the cylce will start again.

we can all go 'you can't close the rover plant, these people need jobs' but when no one wants a rover car there is no point employing them. Same as in the US they have been over producing cars for decades, now no one wants a new car and the US market is full of cheap second hand cars there is no reason for factory workers to be employed.

Henners91 wrote:Hrm to those who are going to spoil their papers... I can only ask why they'd bother going to the polling station: Willingly giving up your democratic right to vote really does the establishment more of a favour than anything, in my opinion at least...

At any rate, I don't blame the recession on Labour, I think any incompetence demonstrated can be found in any government... I ultimately feel that nothing can stop boom/bust and really the crisis showed that *more* regulation is needed.

Vote for Labour or Conservative is a wasted vote.
We haven't had a decent goverment in decades, The recent expences crap has proved that
Maggie thatcher did more damage to us than adolf hitler.
At least he left us with an industry base to work from.

loki old fart wrote: Maggie thatcher did more damage to us than adolf hitler.

Riiiiight.

Sorry, i tend to try and steer away from generic insults and give a sensible well rounded argument, but being as that is without doubt the most ridiculous thing i have ever read it does not require or deserve an answer, so i shall merely retort with /facepalm

mattyrm wrote:

loki old fart wrote: Maggie thatcher did more damage to us than adolf hitler.

Riiiiight.

Sorry, i tend to try and steer away from generic insults and give a sensible well rounded argument,

SINCE WHEN ?

but being as that is without doubt the most ridiculous thing i have ever read it does not require or deserve an answer, so i shall merely retort with /facepalm

Maggie thatcher did more damage to us than adolf hitler

That was said somewhat tongue in cheek, but I think the point was made.
A lot of the problems we face today were the result of decisions made back then.

@Loki - Give it up, man. Your statement was just a load of tosh - accept it. Thatcher hurt our country more than the Second World War? What a creative way to insult those who sacrificed their lives for our freedom. Thatcher actually did quite a lot for the UK in terms of our economy and standing in the world. That's not to say that I agree with everything she did, but to compare her to Hitler?

Oh dear.

loki old fart wrote:
Maggie thatcher did more damage to us than adolf hitler

That was said somewhat tongue in cheek, but I think the point was made.
A lot of the problems we face today were the result of decisions made back then.

Thatcher is a woman that is either loved or loathed depending on the opinion of the person that happens to be writing about her, im rather well versed on this subject after reading an amusing back and forth between two journalists in the Telegraph about a year ago.

In a nutshell, you are attempting to make a very complicated subject sound simple, when it is far from simple. Even the most anti-Thatcher writer (people that actually have some idea about politics and economics) would not come out with such a ridiculous statement.

Putting aside personal feelings for the woman, i think she had some extemely tough decisions to make. The point is, smarter men than i (and certainly you judging by your last few posts) would say that she may have been misguided with some of her policies, but she clearly had a wish to make the country fiscally conservative.

"somewhat" Tongue in cheek?

Mentioning Hitler in this way is extremely crass and i have little interest in educating you as to why.

I respect what our fighting men gave and are giving for us.
I have no respect for anything maggie did


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Seems hitler means more to you than me

Turning London into a financial powerhouse again?
Defeating the Argentinian invasion of The Falklands?
Breaking the stanglehold of the unions on British industry?
Sustaining Britain's status as a major world power?
Helping to defeat the Soviet Union?


Mate, you need to stop watching Ben Elton's live DVDs.

When i reach voting age (one year now) i shall most likely be voting tory or spoiling my vote, probably the latter because none of the major parties seem to pay any attention to the problem of our aging population...

With our current healthcare and benefits system we need the majority of the population to be of working age otherwise the government goes into debt - this is why immigration is needed, to bring in more working age individuals to make up for the disproportionate amount of pensioners.

However immigration isnt a stable solution, as we have seen, and so one of five things needs to happen:
1. taxes for working age people go up to compensate for the decrease of people.
2. the working age goes up, you cannot retire until a later age
3. State pensions are removed
4. Older than working age people are "removed"
5. Larger families are encouraged, possibly leading to overpopulation in the long run.

All of these options solve the aging population but none of them are pretty (which is why no polititions want to talk about them).

Ah Ben Elton.. now there's a fething chisler.

Albatross wrote:Turning London into a financial powerhouse again?
Defeating the Argentinian invasion of The Falklands?
Breaking the stanglehold of the unions on British industry?
Sustaining Britain's status as a major world power?
Helping to defeat the Soviet Union?


Mate, you need to stop watching Ben Elton's live DVDs.

Turning London into a financial powerhouse again / Deregulating banks and starting the ball rolling on our present problem.
Defeating the Argentinian invasion of The Falklands / Causing the falklands war, by removing ships (that the falklanders wanted to patrol there. And against all advice from the navy)
Breaking the stanglehold of the unions on British industry / And giving every company the green light to gak on people.
Sustaining Britain's status as a major world power / Now who's taking the piss?
Helping to defeat the Soviet Union / They did that themselves

loki old fart wrote: Helping to defeat the Soviet Union / They did that themselves

Oh yeah, if we all just ignore our antagonists they will "defeat themselves"

What is that? The fething "Ostrich" approach to international diplomacy?

I think this calls for another /facepalm ..

Turning London into a financial powerhouse again / Deregulating banks and starting the ball rolling on our present problem.

Really? I thought is was more to do with the US mortgage market. Labour took the UK to brink of bankruptcy - Thatcher made us one of the richest nations on the planet again.

Defeating the Argentinian invasion of The Falklands / Causing the falklands war, by removing ships (that the falklanders wanted to patrol there. And against all advice from the navy)

Not an aggressive act - how is Argentina deciding to invade sovereign British territory Thatcher's fault? The Falklands contains potentially one of the largest oil fields on earth - I think the decision to hang onto them has been vindicated.

Breaking the stanglehold of the unions on British industry / And giving every company the green light to gak on people.

You want to go back to 3-day weeks and blackouts? Cool - move to the Ukraine or Belarus then.

Sustaining Britain's status as a major world power / Now who's taking the piss?

The willingness and ability to project force in the south atlantic (or indeed, anywhere else in the world) is nothing to be sneered at. Neither is recovering from near-bankruptcy. Neither is maintaining our position as a nuclear power, and tightening our alliance with the US - to levels of co-operation unprecedented in military history.

Helping to defeat the Soviet Union / They did that themselves

Funny, I was starting to think the same thing about you.

mattyrm wrote:

loki old fart wrote: Helping to defeat the Soviet Union / They did that themselves

Oh yeah, if we all just ignore our antagonists they will "defeat themselves"

What is that? The fething "Ostrich" approach to international diplomacy?

I think this calls for another /facepalm ..

If you think the soviets were worried by british industrial might or armed forces, compared to what the americans can produce or have available. Your deluded

As for facepalming carry on you must be good at it by now

I will vote Conservative, as always.

I no longer believe in them, but Brown must go. However to my credit I never believed Labour

Ok so BNP is one vote behind Labour here. actually I am not suprised allowing for the democgraphic, and some people might have been BNP voting as a joke to see what happens.

Maggie thatcher did more damage to us than adolf hitler.

That comment is soo stupid... Im not going to even bother.

Lord-Loss wrote:

Maggie thatcher did more damage to us than adolf hitler.

That comment is soo stupid... Im not going to even bother.

The luftwaffe tried to crush the british, and all they did was make us stand together.
With pride

maggie split the people into factions. The haves and the have nots.

And only one o in so[u]

loki old fart wrote:

Lord-Loss wrote:

Maggie thatcher did more damage to us than adolf hitler.

That comment is soo stupid... Im not going to even bother.

The luftwaffe tried to crush the british, and all they did was make us stand together.
With pride

maggie split the people into factions. The haves and the have nots.

And only one o in so[u]

Considering you have butchered the English language this entire thread i really dont think you should be dressing people down for the use of extra letters in a sentence. Or are you going to educate us all with regards to MP's "expences" again?

Touche lol

Adolf Hitler: Killed 6 million Jews, started World War 2, lied and decieved the German people to get power, killed millions for his own selfish reasons.

Marget Thatcher: Stuff.

Lord-Loss wrote:Adolf Hitler: Killed 6 million Jews, started World War 2, lied and decieved the German people to get power, killed millions for his own selfish reasons.

Marget Thatcher: Stuff.

Would have been better if Adolf was killed at birth. IMHO

Marget Thatcher: Stuff = Pensioners deciding if to eat or freeze, people dying in hospital corridors, because of no beds.
A generation without jobs. All because of her ideas or the knock on effects.

loki old fart wrote: Pensioners deciding if to eat or freeze, people dying in hospital corridors, because of no beds.
A generation without jobs. All because of her ideas or the knock on effects.

Er.. isnt that now? You know, after almost 13 years of Labour?

24th of May 2008, 32,000 NHS beds have gone in a decade. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/2022572/NHS-hospitals-lose-32000-beds-in-a-decade.html

13th May 2009, Young jobless figures soar. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/young-hit-hardest-as-jobless-figures-soar-by-244000-1684030.html

January 14th 2010 Elderly miss out on cold weather payments. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/money/consumer_affairs/article6987788.ece

You are a short sighted fool. Learn something about politics before you come on here and parrot whoever is spoon feeding you this tripe.

New labour is thatcherism in drag

I was there when the jobless totals were rolling on news at ten.


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When maggie put forward her new vision for the NHS


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When blair carried on with the same crap

So New Labour is Thatcherism in drag, fine. A No True Scotsman argument it is then.

Its rather easy to poke holes in political parties statements, but ill give you that one for the sake of not banging the same drum over and over.

Who then Loki, in your wisdom, will you be voting for if not Conservative OR Labour? The Lib Dems?