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Nurglitch wrote:I find the people surmising that CKO beat a bad player to be hilarious. "Well, the list is perfect, so it must have been the player!"

I think a battle report is in order, with photos.

Either the dice were bad or the player was bad. It's not that we're saying it was impossible, just incredibly unlikely to destroy all the cars in less than 2 turns.

I can't believe you guys have such faith in a gimmick army list that you insist someone must be a liar when he claims to have beaten it.

Yeah, I'm similarly unimpressed with the insistence that no one can win against this army, and that anyone who has done so is a liar or {insert list of hypothesized excuses}.

Mind you, the most common reply to an application of tactics on this board is "A good player wouldn't let you do that..." as if even the best players always got to decide between good and bad decisions, rather than playing resources off against time.

Broken Loose wrote:

Either the dice were bad or the player was bad. It's not that we're saying it was impossible, just incredibly unlikely to destroy all the cars in less than 2 turns.

2 rounds? Where did he say this?

And every Speeder, Razor which went down gave him more room to maneuver his army...
I think he actually play the game. Most of the people talk much more instead of playing the game actually.

I have been having a lot of success against all comers with this list...

tyranid prime boneswords
3x hive guard
3x hive guard
3x venomthropes
tervigon adrenal toxin catalyst crushing claws
tervigon adrenal toxin catalyst crushing claws
23x gants
22x gants
t-fex with rupture cannon
t-fex with rupture cannon

Looking at that SW firepower output, I'd likely FNP the tervigons. Once I got to midfield, i'd park the venomthropes and warrior and just got to ground, I'd imagine it would be nearly impossible for the SW player to actually kill any termagants. So they'd have to get really good at tank shock objective block. So you are facing down 5-6 lascannon hits and 8 missile hits. the missiles probably take out one or two hive guard, because it would be unwise to shoot into a 5+ cover FNP tervigon, the 5 lascannon hits take around 3 wounds off of a t-fex.

So I may have only lost one hive guard on the first round. I get three pens on troop razorbacks from hive guard, and my t-fexes each pen a speeder in response. If I got to go first, then we get to apply these results before the super fragile shooting core of the wolves gets to fire...

I won't go any farther than that on calculations. There are quite a few x-factors, like the jaws moving around, and especially what the mission parameters are. But I'd have some confidence that in order for the space wolves to actually score an objective and not get shredded by supergants, they are going to ave to kill tervigons. And If they do that, then no one is killing the hive guard and t-fexes, which will mean something else....

If I can get an opponent to proxy play that game, i will play it and batrep it. That list has always been really dependent on going first when facing off against an even marginally shooty opponent.


I'll even throw another nid list out there that I am working on. it isn't polished at al yet, but the concept is to field nothing but models that hit on turn 2, and can take out vehicles. the super simple version is something like this...

tyranid prime boneswords
3x zoanthropes
3x zoanthropes
3x zoanthropes
10x genestealers
10x genestealers
10x genestealers
10x genestealers
10x genestealers
10x genestealers
4x raveners rending claws
4x raveners rending claws

Obviously needs to be tightened up and focused, but I really put this together to fight my ultra shooty IG list (which has more survivable vehicles and is shootier than the SW list) The concept is that every unit is on table, and every unit will likely wreck a vehicle that didn't move cruising speed.

I start with the ability to kill 11 vehicles on turn 2. And you are going to get either one or two shooting phases to make that less. You can probably kill all 9 zoanthropes... but you are still out around 8 vehicles. Alternately, you could start immediately working on removing scoring units, but then are open to a zoanthrope shot, genestealer charge... one-two-punch.

Again this is just an untested idea.... but it is certainly a list capable of inflicting mass carnage to lightly armored vehicle spam. And if you have any intention of remaining stationary to shoot that plasma gun, then those genestealers are virtually guaranteed a wrecked result.

Again, if I can, I would love to test this list concept against the space wolf concept.

Haven't been able to set up a rematch with Avariel yet but with snow likely this weekend the game will probably take place on Vassal 40k instead of RL and I'll take screen captures after every turn and write a full battle report.

Lunchmoney
Its not that Stealers can't kill transports stealers can but if your trading 100+ points of stealers for a 75 pt Razor back or 35 pt Rhino and then the marines inside kill your stealers with their flamer and bolters its not a good trade. Stealers must make up their points in the turn they come in because after that they just get shot to death.

CKO
What nid list did you beat mech space wolves with? Very interested in this. Heavy Venom cannons have been really bad for me they scatter of alot and fail to get a kill if they hit.

AV10/11 maybe not that hard to damage but its not that easy to actually get a kill on. I shoot 3 Hive Guard at a Rhino. I get 6 shots. I hit with 4. Strength 8 I can expect to penetrate with 2. Statistically this does not guarantee me a kill since I only get a kill 1/3 of the time and Statisically 3 penetrates get a kill.

Shep
Your list is almost identical to what my group is testing.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/275852.page

We thinking of putting the Hive Tyrant back for the WS1 to make our gaunts really super but he costs so much points when you factor in guards and isn't that survivable.

How are the Venomthropes? I have deathleaper in that slot instead. Maybe its worth trying Venom thropes for the custom forcefield.

I haven't been that impressed with T-fex. He costs so much and doesn't do enough for his huge points cost. Yes he can shake vehicles at 48 but sometimes he epically fails and misses twice and he doesn't get enough vehicle kills fast enough to make up his huge points sink. T-fex might be next up on the chopping block.

Do you play on Vassal 40k? If so maybe we can do some playtesting online I'll play my latest guard test list vs your nids or I can play nids and you can play guard.

You can also PM Avariel to see if you can get vassal 40k game with her. She's testing space wolf lists for a GT at the end of the month.

I have yet to lose at 1500 points against SW (played them three times) even having to deal with JotWW. I might be lucky with my dice rolls though. I'm playing tghis list which was honed for any mech list but also can at least compete with hordes.


HQ

Parasite of Mortex 160

Tyranid Prime, Lash Whip, Bonesword, Regen 105

ELITES

2 Hive Guard 100
2 Hive Guard 100

TROOPS

Tervigon, Toxin Sacs, Catalyst, Onslaught 200
10 Termagants 50

4 Warriors, Lash Whips, Boneswords, Venom Cannon 260
Mycetic Spore, Venom Cannon

FAST ATTACK

23 Gargoyles, Toxin Sacs, Adrenal Glands 184

HEAVY

Mawloc 170
Mawloc 170

1499

I'm a decent player but I'm not a tactical genius. I understand how to best utilize my troops though and four Venom Cannons backed by four Hive Guard will leave some exposed troops on foot.

The key is getting enough attempts to spawn your termagants and rippers. Once these start to flood the board it becomes very hard for your opponent to adjust.

If I played at 1750 I would simply add another Tervigon and at 2000 a Mawloc and more Hive Guard. At this point I simply do not have the models -

A Vanguard list beats mech.

Fetterkey wrote:I can't believe you guys have such faith in a gimmick army list that you insist someone must be a liar when he claims to have beaten it.

When someone is telling me he can 'early kill' av 10 and 11 armed with 48" guns using 24" guns, then ya, I am going to question any of his 'claims'.

Even if he went first, assuming his opponent wasn't a dill weed, he would need to kill all three of the speeders on turn 2 with hive guard.

Then somehow, during all of this, he manages to shake 'most' of eleven separate heavy weapon units.

And corner deployment would work against a shooty nid list, unless his opponent was going first and deployed first. Meaning his opponent would get to light him up with 12 ml's and 8 lc's first.

Razorbacks are IN. I reaccessed my 1500/2000 pt lists a few months ago realizing that effective high rate of fire will be a necessity against these newer codices. SW can do it better than any other marine list with the three man wolf guard squads. Min-maxed to the hilt with landspeeders. this WILL be the new space marine meta.

Killing a speeder with a unit of Hive Guard is not difficult. In fact, you should probably kill or neutralize a speeder with one round of shooting from a unit of three Hive Guard. Ordinarily, Typhoon speeders have great standoff potential that prevents their weak armor from being a key factor, but against units like Hive Guard who can deploy out of LoS and still attack, they have to maneuver forward on tables with sufficient terrain in order to engage effectively, bringing them closer to the enemy and into the Hive Guard's lethal range.

Another thing to consider is that that Space Wolf list has enough Razorbacks that they will get in one another's way, and many sport the inefficient Stronos-pattern (las/plas) combination to boot. On paper, Stronos Razorbacks seem great, but when you put them to the test, they turn out to be much worse than expected, thanks largely to their comparative lack of mobility. Not being able to move and fire both weapons really hampers the effectiveness of a combination like that. Every turn you fire your lascannon by itself is a turn where a standard twin-lascannon Razorback would have outperformed the Stronos-pattern. Further, Razorbacks are likely to spend many turns moving 6" and firing, and the twin-linked lascannon is almost always better than the Stronos when it comes to that job.

Fetterkey wrote:Killing a speeder with a unit of Hive Guard is not difficult. In fact, you should probably kill or neutralize a speeder with one round of shooting from a unit of three Hive Guard. Ordinarily, Typhoon speeders have great standoff potential that prevents their weak armor from being a key factor, but against units like Hive Guard who can deploy out of LoS and still attack, they have to maneuver forward on tables with sufficient terrain in order to engage effectively, bringing them closer to the enemy and into the Hive Guard's lethal range.

Everybody who's going understands that Hive Guard should be able to WTFPWN Speeders if they're in range. Getting Hive Guard into range on T1-2, even with Spearhead deployment, is a problem.

I dont know why some of you act as if I have accomplished something by beating a space wolf list thats trying to be an IG list.

He deployed his land speeders right behind his razorbacks in the spear head mission. With terrain and his razorbacks it would have been difficult for him to draw line of sight, and he also uses the heavy bolters. I admit it was a mistake, but this is the first time against the list that I targeted them first.

I was never a big fan of the Razor spam SW. Around here they play this SW list

Space Wolves - 1500

Rune Priest, Lightning/JotWW
Rune Priest, Lightning/JotWW

3 Wolf Guards CombiMeltas (Attached to the GH of course)
Land Raider Redemeer MultiMelta

5 Grey Hunters Flamer
5 Grey Hunters Flamer
5 Grey Hunters Flamer

Land Raider Redemeer MultiMelta
Land Raider Redemeer MultiMelta
Land Raider Redemeer MultiMelta

The list is killer if you know how to play the range game. The Rune Priests will decimate Tervigons and Carnifexes obviously. The multi-meltas will deal with the rest of the MCs and falmers will stop the hordes.

Fetterkey wrote:
Another thing to consider is that that Space Wolf list has enough Razorbacks that they will get in one another's way, and many sport the inefficient Stronos-pattern (las/plas) combination to boot. On paper, Stronos Razorbacks seem great, but when you put them to the test, they turn out to be much worse than expected, thanks largely to their comparative lack of mobility. Not being able to move and fire both weapons really hampers the effectiveness of a combination like that. Every turn you fire your lascannon by itself is a turn where a standard twin-lascannon Razorback would have outperformed the Stronos-pattern. Further, Razorbacks are likely to spend many turns moving 6" and firing, and the twin-linked lascannon is almost always better than the Stronos when it comes to that job.

The las/plas are not expected to do long range better than twin linked las. They are also not expected to stand still and fire all weapons. In fact no transport should ever stand still against nids since they will be hit automatically in CC which is where Nids excel. Las/plas razorbacks are expected to drill holes at both long and short range. considering the sheer number of heavy weapons and the in-your-face-by-t2 nature of nids, the las/plas seems really practical and versitile IN THIS LIST. Obviously it is working because list has made it around about three 40K forums already. it is being touted as the new leaf blower list. Unless you have tried the list I wouldn't put it down so decisively.

I am curious which is better against all comers however, the las/plas or twin linked Ass. Cannon? I understand the 24 inch range is a problem but most marines players attempt to dominate mid board anyway. In this common circumstance the 24 inch range is much less of an obstacle.

That list isn't legal Felixcat. The Rune Priests need to split their powers, which is probably what your friends are doing.

But yes, Raider spam lists rock the boat for Nids. Not as LOLWIN as against Daemons or Orks, but it is a problem for the codex.

"Thankfully" IG and [Chaos] Marine players can rock the boat right back on Raider spam lists. That makes them thankfully rare for other codices.

felixcat wrote:
I was never a big fan of the Razor spam SW. Around here they play this SW list

Space Wolves - 1500

Rune Priest, Lightning/JotWW
Rune Priest, Lightning/JotWW

3 Wolf Guards CombiMeltas (Attached to the GH of course)
Land Raider Redemeer MultiMelta

5 Grey Hunters Flamer
5 Grey Hunters Flamer
5 Grey Hunters Flamer

Land Raider Redemeer MultiMelta
Land Raider Redemeer MultiMelta
Land Raider Redemeer MultiMelta

The list is killer if you know how to play the range game. The Rune Priests will decimate Tervigons and Carnifexes obviously. The multi-meltas will deal with the rest of the MCs and falmers will stop the hordes.

With the amount of melta weapons in transports or fast attack choices how does this list stand a chance against the current metagame. I mean against nids its a problem but everything else should smoke it.

Deuce11 wrote:I am curious which is better against all comers however, the las/plas or twin linked Ass. Cannon? I understand the 24 inch range is a problem but most marines players attempt to dominate mid board anyway. In this common circumstance the 24 inch range is much less of an obstacle.

You need the las/plas. It's an alpha strike list. Not having anything to shoot at til turn 2-3 is not viable with a glass sledgehammer like MaxOD. Similarly AssCans aren't going to be hugely effective at stopping 2+ armor units.

The grace of the Las/Plas razorback is that you're damned if you do and damned if you don't; you don't really want to sit at 30 inches trading shots with all the heavy weapons. You'll almost undoubtedly get plinked faster than you're plinking with the sole exception of mech IG. If you rumble closer, however, you put yourself within range of even more weapons.

Yes, a Mech IG AV12 wall can do what this list does and be more survivable. But to discount MaxOD as anything but a monstrously competitive list (with a $700 price tag) is simply sticking your head in the sand.

sourclams wrote:
You need the las/plas. It's an alpha strike list. Not having anything to shoot at til turn 2-3 is not viable with a glass sledgehammer like MaxOD. Similarly AssCans aren't going to be hugely effective at stopping 2+ armor units.

The grace of the Las/Plas razorback is that you're damned if you do and damned if you don't; you don't really want to sit at 30 inches trading shots with all the heavy weapons. You'll almost undoubtedly get plinked faster than you're plinking with the sole exception of mech IG. If you rumble closer, however, you put yourself within range of even more weapons.

Yes, a Mech IG AV12 wall can do what this list does and be more survivable. But to discount MaxOD as anything but a monstrously competitive list (with a $700 price tag) is simply sticking your head in the sand.

QFT.

(which has more survivable vehicles and is shootier than the SW list)

We had 48 heavy/special weapons all at BS4 in the 2K SW list. Since everyone are claiming the IG are outright more competitive in the shooting mech game, I'm curious how many heavy/special weapons does your list have at 2K points then?

Why do people say the list has blah blah number of weapons? Its simple av 11 vs 12.

CKO wrote:Why do people say the list has blah blah number of weapons? Its simple av 11 vs 12.

Of course it isn't. If it's 6x AV 11 3x AV 12 3x AV 13 and 3x AV 10 on one side for example it gets a little more complicated than that. Actually, the majority of vehicles is something else than AV11 in that list with 48 guns. Secondly, I can't really see how the amount and quality of guns could possibly ever be irrelevant when comparing two army lists that play the same way. If the IG can't even match the amount of guns it's apparent that once you factor in one or two Jaws per turn and the rune weapon bubbles the SW are stronger than IG when playing against Tyranids, which is what this discussion is about. I've only asked you to back your statements up. People are all about wild claims and accusations these days.

Deuce11 wrote:The las/plas are not expected to do long range better than twin linked las. They are also not expected to stand still and fire all weapons. In fact no transport should ever stand still against nids since they will be hit automatically in CC which is where Nids excel. Las/plas razorbacks are expected to drill holes at both long and short range. considering the sheer number of heavy weapons and the in-your-face-by-t2 nature of nids, the las/plas seems really practical and versitile IN THIS LIST.

The only time where the twin-linked plasma gun is going to perform better than the twin-linked lascannon against Tyranids (read: Toughness 6-) is when the target is within 12 inches, at which point you are vulnerable to all kinds of enemy assault elements and may want to be moving at cruising speed to avoid death. Further, as the enemy closes, the odds of being glanced and unable to fire grow significantly higher. As you say, you can't really expect to stand still and fire all weapons, especially not against Tyranids-- this makes the Stronos-pattern Razorback significantly less effective. In point of fact, though, you can't really expect to stand still and fire all weapons against almost any serious opponent. Further, against enemies with significant long-range firepower, the las/plas configuration obviously falters in comparison to the twin-linked lascannon turret.

Deuce11 wrote:Obviously it is working because list has made it around about three 40K forums already. it is being touted as the new leaf blower list. Unless you have tried the list I wouldn't put it down so decisively.

The fact that something is popular online doesn't make it good. I have tested many different Razorback configurations and the Stronos-pattern is far worse than one might expect. If I were taking a Razorback spam list, I would take twin-linked lascannons over lasplas. While the assault cannon option is certainly interesting, assault cannons suffer greatly from their 24" range. You really need that turn 1 barrage in order to survive with a list like this, so the asscannons aren't going to cut it.

Its very simple what do IG list have multi-lasers, twin-linked lascannons, autocannons, battlecannons.

All IG list have to do to beat this list is deploy their infantry squads outside the chimera and now each chimera has double their fire power. Now we have 20+ separate units that can penetrate or glance your av 11 or 10. Know do you see the disadvantage!

number9dream - Thanks for the link.

I think a lot of people are fogetting if the lascannon gets destroyed then you have the plasma guns to use.

Therion wrote:We had 48 heavy/special weapons all at BS4 in the 2K SW list. Since everyone are claiming the IG are outright more competitive in the shooting mech game, I'm curious how many heavy/special weapons does your list have at 2K points then?

Well just throwing together a 2000 point list

3 x Vet squad las cannon 3 melta
chimera multi laser/heavy bolter or heavy flamer - 18 heavy/special

6 (3x2) vendetta 3 twin linked las cannon 2 heavy bolter - 30 heavy/special

6 (3x2) hydra flak tanks 2 twin linked auto cannons and a heavy bolter each - 18 heavy/special

1 company command squad las cannon 2 plasma guns
chimera multi laser/heavy bolter or heavy flamer - 5 heavy/special


Total 71 heavy/special weapons

30 twin-linked BS 3

15 BS 4

26 BS 3

This is in no way an optimized list, I am just throwing this out there so you can get a sense of how shooty mech guard can be.

If I knew I was fighting that space wolf list I would take 3 groups of 3 leman russ exterminators. Missile launcher meet av14 the bane of your existance

Oh and in response to the 48 HEAVY WEAPONS! OMGWTFBBQ! of the space wolf list. I will have to quote gone with the wind "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn"

Oh and in response to the 48 HEAVY WEAPONS! OMGWTFBBQ! of the space wolf list. I will have to quote gone with the wind "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn"

You might not give a damn, but considering the list you're talking about has five drop pod alpha strike meltaguns your Exterminators might. Your list will have 2 or 3 of them total.

This is in no way an optimized list, I am just throwing this out there so you can get a sense of how shooty mech guard can be.

Indeed. I'm sure one of you all star IG players has to have a real tournament list hanging around somewhere? I don't understand what's so difficult in posting an army list after making extraordinary claims about wiping the floor with enemies that are known to be challenging.

That list isn't legal Felixcat. The Rune Priests need to split their powers, which is probably what your friends are doing.

Yep. One has MH not Lightning. Sorry. And that is how I remember the list - I don't play it myself - who has that many Redeemers, lol.

With the amount of melta weapons in transports or fast attack choices how does this list stand a chance against the current metagame. I mean against nids its a problem but everything else should smoke it.

Nonsense. Sure there are lists that can beat it. But it plays well against most. Our game has become a rock/paper/scissors environment. The SW list ois one that truly plays well against most of the field but that is an exception. Most lists will have a bad match up - balanced or not. Remember the list is a 1500 list ... at 2000 points expect TH/ss terminators, TWC, etc. to be added.

I'm lost here, how did beating Mech Space Wolves with New Nids morph into who is fiercer, the IG or the SW in a mid range mech shooting match? Where did the minutia of what a razorback should be equipped with come from? Nids don't have razorbacks.

I'm with Shep on this one. I think the Nids can handle Mech SW (or Mech anybody else, for that matter) a reasonable percentage of the time. I'd try a very different list (Ymgari stealers, raveners, Trygons and Lictors). Wolves hate handling hordes, especially hordes with fighting units that make a mockery of them.