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Like hordes of clowns?

Hmm... like, Orks who think they're Harlequins? That could be a very cool army.

You might not give a damn, but considering the list you're talking about has five drop pod alpha strike meltaguns your Exterminators might. Your list will have 2 or 3 of them total.

I didnn't see any drop pods in the original SW list just lots of razorbacks

Therion wrote:Indeed. I'm sure one of you all star IG players has to have a real tournament list hanging around somewhere? I don't understand what's so difficult in posting an army list after making extraordinary claims about wiping the floor with enemies that are known to be challenging.

Not sure I like the tone of this request... but in the spirit of the thread, here is a 2k IG list that I am going to tune up to play in some 2k vegas qualifiers....

CCS x4 melta astropath chimera heavy flamer

PBS x8 chimera heavy flamer

PCS x4 flamer chimera heavy flamer
infantry squad autocannon chimera heavy flamer
infantry squad autocannon chimera heavy flamer
HWS autocannons
HWS autocannons

veterans x3 meltas chimera heavy flamer

2x vendettas with heavy bolter

2x vendettas with heavy bolter

vendetta with heavy bolter

manticore

manticore


61 heavy/special weapons.... 15 twin linked, 6 of them potentially twin linked, 8 of them BS4.....

And the whole thing is armor 12. Its also MUCH better at handling horde armies, and much better at handling dual land raider. Oh and I have an astropath if the space wolves get first turn. Even using Adepticon rules, you won't have any vendettas or manticores to shoot at. If we aren't playing with adepticon rules, well you aren't getting first turn.

Sourclams said it best.... You can and should certainly respect maximum overdrive as a "hard" list. That doesn't mean it is shootier than IG, or even the most competitive way to run space wolves.

When i posted those nid lists earlier in the thread, I wasn't saying "here are some nid lists that will win 100% of the time." What I was saying was "Here are some take all comer nid lists that probably have enough gas to split their games against a space wolf list like that one."

What I hate most about a glass hammer list like maximum overdirve, is against so many armies it really comes down to whether or not you won first turn. trusting tourney success to a coin toss doens't seem all that smart to me... unless you don't have any faith in your generalship.

Assuming Doom works on embarked units, then simply drop him (via spore) near the clumped up rhinos/razors and watch them die. Although not a complete win on his own, he will certainly make mince wolf of those small units with 8 LD, and will give the SW player something to think about as the rest of your forces move in.

The doom working on embarked units is going to be a hard sell at tournaments unless it is faq'ed



@Therion

Please post the space wolf list you are talking about as it is different from the one posted in this thread.

Therion wrote:Indeed. I'm sure one of you all star IG players has to have a real tournament list hanging around somewhere? I don't understand what's so difficult in posting an army list after making extraordinary claims about wiping the floor with enemies that are known to be challenging.

While there was some hyperbole (IG shooting is far superior) in discussing the IG shooty lists, you have greatly exaggerated the claims made about IG.

I do believe that a shooty mech IG list will beat a shooty mech SW list more often than not.

That doesn't mean it is shootier than IG, or even the most competitive way to run space wolves.

While discussing SW and IG, we can also turn this back to Tyranids. Firstly, what do you think is 'the most competitive way to run Space Wolves'? Naturally this means that it has a better chance of beating both IG and Tyranids than the lasback version. Take no offence, I'm honestly very curious to what you're thinking, and how the Tyranids would in turn have to respond. A friend of mine is building a Tyranid army as we speak based on yours and some other Dakka posters' opinions on them. I have a SM army myself.

I've also noticed that the Tyranid lists atleast seem to be significantly 'weaker' at 1500 points than at 1750 and 1850 points. It looks like it's quite challenging to squeeze in all the necessary stuff at lower points limits to build a good all-around force with no hard counters.

And the whole thing is armor 12. Its also MUCH better at handling horde armies, and much better at handling dual land raider. Oh and I have an astropath if the space wolves get first turn. Even using Adepticon rules, you won't have any vendettas or manticores to shoot at. If we aren't playing with adepticon rules, well you aren't getting first turn.

What adepticon rules are you refering to? I didnt see anything in the packet that had to do with this...

Therion wrote:Firstly, what do you think is 'the most competitive way to run Space Wolves'? Naturally this means that it has a better chance of beating both IG and Tyranids than the lasback version.

Well, my nid list that has been the most consistently successful so far (I'm by no means done figuring this book out, there are tons of untested unit combinations, and I haven't even played against other poplar armies like eldar yet) has been a slow moving, uber-resilient, mostly shooty tervigon/t-fex/hive guard set up. Things that ruin me that space wolves have access to are...

#1 rune priests... even without jaws, a combination of murderous hurricane and the rune weapon would put this unit as my public enemy number 1. If the guy hates nids and takes jaws, then its even worse.
#2 land raiders... i just have two t-fexes to stop land raiders, and full spreads from LRCs into termagants hurt, especially when you are lobbing your multi-melta shot into nearby tervigons or t-fexes.
#3 good assault units... step one open charge lane to tervigon with shooting, step two charge tervigon, step three shake nid players hand
#4 9-10 man grey hunter units... When i was experimenting with genestealers, this was the unit that ruined them. get out and bolter drill, use the rhino chassis to spoil a termagant charge so that they won't get that many models engaged if they charge, pass counter-assault, enjoy mark of wulfen, win combat, crumble gants... that opened up a charge lane for TWC to hit tervigon.

So my "horde" nid army pretty much fears SW most when you crash one termagant screen out of two. Break it open with shooting, sidestep the screen and deliver a CC master into my t-fexes or tervigons. The tervigon will explode over half of the newly born termagants, and those termagants that survive that aren't close enough to the other tervigon just went from a good troop unit to grots.

With my IG army, I tend to split games against space wolf armies that have a core "kill element" and then support the hell out of it with missiles. That core kill can be wolf guard in drop pods, wolf guard in land raiders, or thunderwolf cav with fenrisian screens (or storm cover). When i was running more plasma vets I could clear out TWC pretty well, but nowadays i have more meltas, autocannons and lasguns, which TWC tend to laugh off. Suppress vendettas with long fangs or draw vendetta fire with long fangs, and get those TWC as close to me as possible to minimize the damage my manticores can do to them. TWC don't really seem to have a problem killing my tanks, because I'm usually just moving 6".

I have found nid MCs like trygons pretty easy to kill off with IG shooting, but the pure speed and number of T5 wounds on TWC make them a lot more survivable, And they have that strength 5, that high volume of attacks, and that thunderhammer for my tanks. grey hunters tend to not be a factor in my IG games versus SW, but they have that scoring role to fall back on.

Therion wrote: Take no offence, I'm honestly very curious to what you're thinking, and how the Tyranids would in turn have to respond. A friend of mine is building a Tyranid army as we speak based on yours and some other Dakka posters' opinions on them.

Well, I think you and i briefly talked about my shooty/resilient nid list needing a deathstar. Or at least a high initiative hard hitting counter-cc unit. Pure CC armies i can handle with gant screens. When an army can't dictate what units it plans to charge, like a mono-red demon list, then i can keep my tervigons safe, and just grind out a unit with gants. But when good quick tough CC units are backed up by enough shooting to clear 25-30 cover-save gants over two turns, then my plans seem to fall apart almost instantaneously. more gants certainly isn't the answer, i think a scary CC unit might be. Swarmlord is fantastic, and a bargain at 280... but that leads me to your next comment.

Therion wrote:I've also noticed that the Tyranid lists atleast seem to be significantly 'weaker' at 1500 points than at 1750 and 1850 points. It looks like it's quite challenging to squeeze in all the necessary stuff at lower points limits to build a good all-around force with no hard counters.

Spot on. i actually didn't figure this out until very recently. Thankfully, the next couple of tourney qualifiers are at 2k, because at 1750, I was really hamstrung on taking any kind of mycetic spore based army, or even including a hard CC element to my zombie army. I haven't played around with 1500, but even just thinking about it right now is making me laugh. Cut venomthropes, cut MCs, i think at 1500 if you want to be serious you are stuck with stealer shock, zoanthropes and raveners. At 2k, i can get that critical target saturation with these expensive units (seems like everything worth having in a reserve list costs around 200-280).

I'm playing a 2k nid game tonight against orks, and I REALLY feel like I get way more out of that 250 point increase than my ork opponent. Still have no idea how I'm going to us those points. I better start working on that...

Therion wrote:I have a SM army myself.

A couple podding ironclads and a land raider full of terminators just bend horde nids over so hard its not even funny. Make sure you have some blank pods for when you are fighting someone who is going to reserve out on you... but turn 2 charge on termagant screens by ironclads, opens up turn three charges on pretty much any MC you want with your termies. With my particular nid list, I would take on a space wolf army any day instead of this...

librarian
6x terminators in LRC
ironclad heavy flamer pod
ironclad heavy flamer pod
10x tactical flamer missile rhino dozer
10x tactical flamer missile rhino dozer
2x attack bikes multi-meltas
thunderfire cannon pod
thunderfire cannon pod

i suppose if I had 6+ zoanthropes I'd be slightly less hard pressed, but then I'm contesting against that hood.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

cypher wrote:What adepticon rules are you refering to? I didnt see anything in the packet that had to do with this...

Under adepticon rules, astropaths (for some undisclosed reason) must actually be on the table for their +1 reserves rule to be in effect.

With my listed army, if I were playing at an adpeticon tourney and lost first turn to a glass hammer, i would reserve my vendettas, manticores, and PBS, probably leaving all of the troops and the CCS on table. Then on turn 2 I'd be able to roll 3+s for my own glass hammers to arrive.

Without adepticon rules in place, my astropath works just by being included in my army. If i lost first turn i would hold my entire army in reserve, and my entire army (except for the infantry squad autocannons and HWS autocannons) can move and shoot. So 2/3s of my army shows up on the bottom of turn 2, and gets to "fire first".

I'm playing a 2k nid game tonight against orks, and I REALLY feel like I get way more out of that 250 point increase than my ork opponent. Still have no idea how I'm going to us those points. I better start working on that...

Any chance for a battle report? Sounds like a fun matchup, and I haven't heard (or I don't remember it anyway) much about Nids vs Orks in these threads.

number9dream wrote:Any chance for a battle report? Sounds like a fun matchup, and I haven't heard (or I don't remember it anyway) much about Nids vs Orks in these threads.

ask and ye shall receive...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/276490.page#1291843

Well I had my rematch with Avariel with Mech Spave Wolves last night on Vassal.

Will upload the screenshots to my photobucket and write a full report if I have time later.

Mission was Kill Points with Pitched Battle Deployment. For sake of me not getting owned she took Murderous Huricane and Tempests Wrath for powers and NO JAWS. This is the config she was using before the new Tyranid book came out.

I got a win it wasn't even close.

I went first and deployed in the middle with gaunts in front, hive guard in a row behind that and then the 2 tervigons and the hive tyrant in a row behind the hive guard, tyranofexs were on the left and right.

Avariel deploys to one flank but I can still get range.

Big decision here right off that bat was what to FNP. Keeping Hive Guard around with FNP would be good but I FNP the tervigons themselves as everything fell apart when they got jaws in previous matches.

First turn I move everything on up, running the gaunts and take my shots. Killing 1 razor back and 1 rhino with 2 long fangs in it so they get to shoot and shaking another razorback and my normally useless tyrants strangler going wide right into a speeder which explodes. Last t-fex needed to go back to the target range as he missed twice.

With good coversaves I didn't even lose a unit of hive guard from Avariel's shooting. I FNP the gaunts and 1 gets blocked by rune priest. The down to 1 hive guard manages to shake a razor yay and I kill a razorback with the full strength hive guard and a t-fex pops a speeder and the second one misses twice again man he really needs to go to the shooting range.

Last hive guard pops and my gaunts without fnp get burned assaulted and dead.

I make gaunts for the first time and assault with super gaunts on my next turn and am way ahead in kill points at this point so I'll save the rest for my full report.

First turn and being in range really helps. Having some good rolls early helped too. No Jaws also was huge. Match up is totally winable with no jaws. Avariel was saying after the game she should have reserved everything like she does with IG if not getting the first turn but wolves don't get a +1 from astropath to reserves so I think that might be iffy but we might play a game with her reserving it all later.

Nice... the max overdrive not being as good without first turn isn't a surprise to me.

I think if she reserves out on you, that gives you chance to get a LOT closer to her deployment zone. maybe by the time some of the SW stuff is arriving you are declaring charges against razorbacks instead of just shooting at them.

Thanks for sharing this SW experience with us. Marines in general seem pretty tough for nids... wolves in particular are even more difficult than the others. Its good to hear this stuff.

Shep wrote:

number9dream wrote:Any chance for a battle report? Sounds like a fun matchup, and I haven't heard (or I don't remember it anyway) much about Nids vs Orks in these threads.

ask and ye shall receive...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/276490.page#1291843

Thanks, it was a good read! The Ork list is definitely not what you typically see posted around the web, looks interesting.

The moral of this story so far is that Jaws of the Warpwolf is the Tyranid Kryptonite since most lists are basing their troops of initiative 1 tervigons and that without it wolves can be beat.

Big unit of complex thunder wolves with stormshields and the warriorborn lord who gets more attacks for killing things is pretty ridiculous as well but also insanely expensive.

I'll have to wait awhile for more testing vs wolves as I'm testing my 1850 guard list for a GT at the end of the month. These games where to help my friend finalize her GT list also. I really hope she goes with the Thunder kitty list rather then max overdrive as the Thunder kitties on white lions look amazing.

Honestly I don't really see that list being able to take down something like 180 gaunts with 9 zoanthropes and a couple tervigons.

How many points is this, anyway?

Regardless, 4 zoanthropes isn't the way to go. Take 9. That's a lot harder to deal with. I'm sorry you rolled a lot of 1's and 2's, but honestly 8 lascannons and 12 missle launchers would statistically kill.... about 4 a turn, and if that's all they're killing then the rest of your army's on them pretty quick, and you didn't put that much commitment into that really.

180 Termagants
8 Zoanthropes
2 Tervigon w/Crushing Claws, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Acid Blood, Regeneration, Catalyst

~2000pts.

I meant like how many points was that game, so I knew what to work with.

Nurglitch
Trying to make an all comers list here that has some game vs mech wolves not tailor a hate list. A big problem with 180 gaunts + tervigon spawns is having enough time at the tournament to move them all.

Spellbound
Game was 1850 pts.

Kirika wrote:Nurglitch
Trying to make an all comers list here that has some game vs mech wolves not tailor a hate list. A big problem with 180 gaunts + tervigon spawns is having enough time at the tournament to move them all.

Spellbound
Game was 1850 pts.

With that simplified Army you have enough time to move. Go forward, end of story.
Its not comparable to Mass Orcs or Imps. It ist not crucial how you move your Gants.

Kirika:

I thought Spellbound had asked how many points that two Tervigons, nine Zoanthropes, and one hundred and eighty Termagants was. As for a generalized list to take out the so-called "over-drive" list, I think there's plenty of those.

I actually doubt that list could take down MaxOD. The Gants can't do much of anything worth a damn to vehicles and Zoeys are going to take a minimum of 2 turns to even get into useful shooting range... 50% of which may be nullified. Las and Krak can instant death Zoeys before moving on to Tervigons.

Then when you add in problems with synapse I don't think this is very viable at all.

Change the Termagants to Hormagaunts and it has a much better chance, but I think playstyle will still dictate the winner there, not rock-paper-scissors like, say, Vulkan vs Green Tide.

I have two questions:

first, Isn't JotWW a shooting psyker power? Most of these rune priests on lists I see appear to have two shooting powers (like LL/JotWW). I know they can be upgraded to use two powers a turn, but I thought you could still only use one shooting power, unless you could normally fire two weapons (Like a MC).

second, where are these max OD SW lists at? I think playing against that list as Tau would be rather hilarious.

Kroot Loops wrote:
second, where are these max OD SW lists at? I think playing against that list as Tau would be rather hilarious.

They're on Stelek's blog www.yesthetruthhurts.com

Against Tau, since you can't outshoot them, you just line up and rhino rush them (razor rush?). Even normal marines can take down swaths of Tau suits in HtH, so space wolves even more so with their double attacks. Plus you need to be close to overcome the disruption pods anyway, so you're on top of them by turn 2-3 and then it's just mop-up.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

Kroot Loops wrote:
second, where are these max OD SW lists at? I think playing against that list as Tau would be rather hilarious.

They're on Stelek's blog www.yesthetruthhurts.com

Against Tau, since you can't outshoot them, you just line up and rhino rush them (razor rush?). Even normal marines can take down swaths of Tau suits in HtH, so space wolves even more so with their double attacks. Plus you need to be close to overcome the disruption pods anyway, so you're on top of them by turn 2-3 and then it's just mop-up.

Yes, it will depend on the dice as always, and who goes first to an extent, but with the army being cut down to minimum size troops and the real punch coming from 8 AV 11 vehicles and 3 AV 10 vehicles, you'd think if the Tau were going to shine anywhere it'd be against this list. This is even one of the few lists you could fairly safely leave your FW outside of their transports to fire long range.

I normally play Tau although I am thinking of starting another army for a change of pace, possible nids.

Tau have a good chance against this list if it were KP. If it is based on 3 or more objectives, that may be more of a challenge. As usual it would depend who went first as well. Chances usually go up if Tau can fire first.

I have not seen this list used by anyone who I face playing SW, so I am not sure how popular it is. Perhaps the expense is one reason.

JAW's against Tyranids does seem over powered to me.