Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

+1 to the above, I still say a unit of gargyles to cover the flyrants and 2 harpies

CKO wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:That Space Wolf list is a pretty standard mech spam list, and seems a little tailored against Nids as well, which doesn't help much. The amount of firepower they can put out will toast almost anything you can get on foot, except swarms of basic guys, who the Razorbacks don't care about. Tyrannofexes would ordinarily be desirable, but a list like that is one of very few that can actually shoot down Tyrannofexes from range. One good way to fight swarms of vehicles is to try to make them block one another, as CKO said. If you can funnel the enemy tanks into chokepoints you'll be able to diminish their shooting and mobility advantages greatly. Nonetheless, I think this will be an uphill battle for the Tyranids.

You are correct except it isnt tailored made to beat tyranids it is more like an attempt to beat IG list at their own game. IG shooting is to far superior as multiple chimeras can glance their razorbacks which is huge when your playing the glance game. Also leman russes offer to much of an advantage as they can provide cover for chimeras and soak up lascannon fire.

However it is an up hill battle for nids especially a new nids player, thats the type of fights Kenpachi likes it!

I consider twin-linked lascannons generally superior to lascannon/plasma gun combos against non-MC targets. The fact that you can only fire one weapon when moving means that the las/plas combo frequently forfeits much of its effectiveness. Though the las/plas Razor has more firepower, especially within twelve inches, it can't move if it wants to use its full power, which makes it much more vulnerable. Against Tyranid MCs, though, the las/plas Razor is certainly superior.

The las/plas combo can take weapon destroyed results and still be a threat.

(300) Tyrant w/ Heavy Venom Cannon, Hive Commander, Wings, Regen, Paroxysm, Leech Essence
(300) Tyrant w/ Heavy Venom Cannon, Hive Commander, Wings, Regen, Paroxysm, Leech Essence

(160) 2x Zoanthropes w/ Mycetic Spore
(160) 2x Zoanthropes w/ Mycetic Spore
(160) 2x Zoanthropes w/ Mycetic Spore

(155) 3x Warriors w/ Venom Cannon, 2x Deathspitters, Mycetic Spore
(155) 3x Warriors w/ Venom Cannon, 2x Deathspitters, Mycetic Spore
(155) 3x Warriors w/ Venom Cannon, 2x Deathspitters, Mycetic Spore

(225) Trygon w/ Regenerate
(225) Trygon w/ Regenerate






220 Hive Tyrant - Lash Whip, Bone Sword, Heavy Venom Cannon, Hive Commander
60 Tyrant Guard

220 Hive Tyrant - Lash Whip, Bone Sword, Heavy Venom Cannon, Hive Commander
60 Tyrant Guard

50 10 Termagants
190 Tervigon - Regeneration

190 5 Warriors - Devourers, Scything Talons, Mycetic Spore

160 2 Zoanthropes - Mycetic Spore
160 2 Zoanthropes - Mycetic Spore

230 Carnifex - 2x Devourer, Mycetic Spore
230 Carnifex - 2x Devourer, Mycetic Spore
230 Carnifex - 2x Devourer, Mycetic Spore

Fight fire with fire

I love SW, I love mechanized armies. But even I wouldn't play that SW list. Its lists like that that just suck any fun out of the game.

CKO wrote:You are correct except it isnt tailored made to beat tyranids it is more like an attempt to beat IG list at their own game. IG shooting is to far superior as multiple chimeras can glance their razorbacks which is huge when your playing the glance game. Also leman russes offer to much of an advantage as they can provide cover for chimeras and soak up lascannon fire.

Except for the fact that it takes 2 chimeras, on average, to get one glance or penetrating hit on a razorback.

It's going to take more than chimeras to shake enough of those razorbacks to make a huge difference.

If that list goes first, most of your chimeras will be smoking ruins from the lc's and ml's...

I don't think that wolf list will do much good an KP missions or dawn of war set up to be honest. It will pick apart a new nid player but lose to blob and mech IG, mechdar, mech tau, dark eldar lance spam and a host of others. He wrecks the first row of chimerae and the ones behind it get cover from the wreck, hell make him shoot though a line of LRBTs.Flying nids and shooty nids at max range, using other nids as cover. The range of the rupture cannon is 48" there is noway he should be able to hit you with his 24"power unless he has been riding in a rhino for 2 turns, and that's if you don't move your tyranofex back every turn.

imweasel wrote:Except for the fact that it takes 2 chimeras, on average, to get one glance or penetrating hit on a razorback.

It's going to take more than chimeras to shake enough of those razorbacks to make a huge difference.

If that list goes first, most of your chimeras will be smoking ruins from the lc's and ml's...

The first turn is not all that bad, the lascannons are not twin-linked so a 3rd of them are going to miss, then another 3rd will not be able to glance a chimera. The fact that the chimera a transport can glance/pen is an advantage especially if they go after the land speeders, once you factor in vendettas, hydras, leman russes, or manticores the IG list has the upper hand. If the IG list has any infantry with heavy weapons then that list is going down.

Its a stelek list, identify the weakness and understand the damage output of the spammed unit and you can beat it.

CKO wrote:Its a stelek list, identify the weakness and understand the damage output of the spammed unit and you can beat it.

It bears repeating.

CKO wrote:The first turn is not all that bad, the lascannons are not twin-linked so a 3rd of them are going to miss, then another 3rd will not be able to glance a chimera. The fact that the chimera a transport can glance/pen is an advantage especially if they go after the land speeders, once you factor in vendettas, hydras, leman russes, or manticores the IG list has the upper hand. If the IG list has any infantry with heavy weapons then that list is going down.

Of course you are correct, if you are going to ignore the 12 ml's in the list as well.

How many heavy weapon units are you planning on taking?

I never said that this list would make IG mech a cake walk. You are the one saying that IG mech would have no problems with this list with chimeras alone.

CKO wrote:Its a stelek list, identify the weakness and understand the damage output of the spammed unit and you can beat it.

That's true of any list, regardless if it comes from 'someone who shall not be named'. However, making blank statements like you said for dealing with it is...misleading at best.

You've been watching this

No what I am saying is that usually chimeras are not very useful but for providing protection and delivering vets. However against this list the chimera has increased value as they can hurt those land speeders and stop razorbacks. I guess what I am saying is that they are an X-factor.

The list is a IG mech list except it has a glass jaw, because the difference between av 12 and 11 is huge.

CKO wrote:No what I am saying is that usually chimeras are not very useful but for providing protection and delivering vets. However against this list the chimera has increased value as they can hurt those land speeders and stop razorbacks. I guess what I am saying is that they are an X-factor.

The list is a IG mech list except it has a glass jaw, because the difference between av 12 and 11 is huge.

If you are taking 6-7 chimeras in a mech IG list, 18-21 bs3 str6 shots are always useful and not an x-factor at all.

CKO wrote:
Its a stelek list, identify the weakness and understand the damage output of the spammed unit and you can beat it.

Stupid statement. Show me the all-comers Nids list that can take down Max Overdrive SW with regularity.

I'd say his list is completely unimaginative, but while it's counter to every bit of fluff it's not illegal. Not something I can imagine someone who wants a list that actually fits to the space wolf spirit.

Thank you for all the replies.

We are doing testing for 1850 lists for GTs.

Owain
Jaws was a major factor. Tyranids have 2 defenses vs psykers. Neither which are particularly good vs Jaws.
1. Death Leaper can give 1 Psyker -d3 leadership which is somewhat mediocre since they still can get off powers although at a reduced rate. (especially if you roll a 1 for the d3)
2. Shadows of the Warp only has a 12 inch effectiveness so is ineffective against the 24 inch range Jaws unless you pod Zoanthropes in and then you only come on on turn 2 or later and are vulnerable to assaults or rapid fire.


Clthomp
I do run 6 hive guard they just aren't enough. Unit of 3 hive guard gets 6 shots. on average you hit with 4. You get maybe a glance and 2 pens on a Rhino chassis. Takes an average of 3 pens to get a kill so you might even kill the transport in one round of shooting.

Podding Zoanthropes haven't been very good versus Space Wolves. I tried them in my first list With the 4+ negation of the runic weapon, half of them get blocked out right. The remaining half have to pass a psyker test (33/36), hit (2/3), penetrate (5/6), roll a kill on the damage table (1/2). If your dropping in 12 inches to use Shadows of the Warp on the Rune Priest your Zoanthropes get assaulted next turn and dead soon after.

I am running 2x 30 termagaunts they get killed fast by Grey Hunters with flamers + 3 swings in assault really quick after the Tervigon got jawsed.

Dunno about More lucks (mawlocs) they are pretty random and crappy from what I seen, either do nothing as they scatter off intended target or not do anything with a single Strength 6 shot at hurting a vehicle and then get quickly shot to death unless you reburrow.

Wrexasaur
Nids can take alot of monsterous creatures now. You could have 2 HQ Tyrants/Tervigons , 3 troops Tervigons, 3 fast attack harpies, and 9 heavy support carnifexes for a total of 17 monsterous creature but this is cost prohibitive pointswise and of questionable viability even if you can afford to spend the points.

DarthDiggler
Not taking any low initiative MCs at all is difficult. You want at least 1 Tervigon + 20-30 termagaunts for a resilient troops choice.

I will playtest a kill points mission next time and see how that goes.


Sourclams
The warrior spam sounds like it might work but then again with all those strength 8+ shots that insta kill warriors. Another issue here is I'm trying for an all comers 1850 list not a tooled to beat mech space wolves list and the spam warriors sounds pretty bad versus other tourney lists.

Grundz
If I went 3 squads of hive guard I would have to lose deathleaper. Might do this but against vanilla Marines deathleaper is pretty good versus the Librarians hood and hurts psykers with the -d3 leadership although maybe not enough to be worth his 140 pts.

Why Biovores? They are only strength 4 and do nothing to vehicles.

Badger
How are Lictors, gargoyles, and stealers good vs mech wolves? Assaulting transports doesn't work very well with strength 4. You need a 4 or 6 to hit then Glance on 6s and have to roll damage with -2. Yes Genestealers have rending but still.

CKO
Whats your IG list look like? I play IG also my list looks like this for 1750 http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/270950.page
and it has a hard time with mech wolves.
Its now always possible to place the objectives near each other since the opponent places some.


So I thinking of trying something like this now

HQ
Tyranid Prime with boneswords goes in Warriors

elite
3 hive guard

3 hive guard

death leaper

troops
30 Termigaunts

pimped out Tervigon

Warriors (how many? what to arm them with? death spitters?)

Warriors

heavy
tyranofex w rupture cannon

tyranofex w rupture cannon

Biovores (how many)


Since a few people are saying to try warriors, I will give them a shot but what should I give them?

I see a problem here is no feel no pain for the second group of hive guard. 2 Tervigons made a very solid troops base but are vulnerable to jaws.

Tyranofexs are init 1 but if I keep them way back and target the runepriest rhino first. Not to sold on Tyranofexes they not reliable at getting vehicle kills but they do a decent job of shaking vehicles like the old gunfexes did at a greater cost with a better chance to kill.

To be honest I'm not very happy with any of the heavies.

The Try Gone pops up and Trys by shoots some strength 5 and stuns a rhino and then gets shot and gone.

The More Luck pops up and probably scatters off its target or is one strength 6 hit on a vehicle unless you are really lucky and then gets shot and gone.

The screamer killer carnifex pods in and either stands around looking dumb as it gets shot to death

The dakka fex pods in stuns or kills a vehicle and then get lit up.

Tyrano fex costs a ton and doesn't get reliable kills with bs3 and only 2 shots. Although is reasonable for keeping predators or vendettas shaken. He also is init 1 so is vulnerable to jaws.

Few people suggested trying biovores. They don't really do much vs mech till you blow up a vehicle but they might be worth trying versus things like Lootas or Space Wolf long fangs on foot with 5 missles.

sourclams wrote:

CKO wrote:
Its a stelek list, identify the weakness and understand the damage output of the spammed unit and you can beat it.

Stupid statement. Show me the all-comers Nids list that can take down Max Overdrive SW with regularity.

I dont have a nids list I just started playing with the nids. My friends play stelek list all the time, the 3 reedemer list, the command bike with storm shields, and this list I have beaten them all. Most of his list spams one unit so if you no its damage output and its weakness you do have a better shot at beating it.

You could also be a better player than your friend.. Skill + list + opponents list = overall effectiveness

I think a TL lascannon razorback spam list would be a bit more productive due to the abiilty to run away and fire better.. and I dont see how this list is *bad* in dawn of war?

If you go first, you move everything on.. okay you cant fire, so what? Your opponent moves everything on and they have night fight

Next turn you get first shooting WITHOUT night fight which is a good thing

Lets say you go second.. You move your rhinos on 12" and lets say they moved some units up 12" which means your rhinos are in DECENT range to search light *something* which lets your razorbacks (because you took TL lascannons) open up with crazy firepower

Dawn of war is usually great for mech lists

JoWW is the best anti-nid power in the game, bar none. Essentially theres no real sure fire way for nids to beat that list, only lucky rolls when he jaws you, and pop the transports quickly to allow yourself to swarm in. That list is tough, period.

I noticed that someone discounted 'stealers as effective armor cracking troops. However, my playtesting so far, has indicated that outflanking genestealers(broods of 7-10) are able to av 10-13 very reliably. That is unupgraded. Give them glands and it gets even better. Ivle honestly had a lot of success so far using venomthropes to mitigate that type of list's shooting. ( along with screens of gaunts etc.

I was able to beat the list today with nids! I was able to destroy the speeders early with hive guard and my swarm of super gaunts was to much to handle for his small units once the razorbacks were destroyed. I claim 1 objective and contested the other to.

I was able to glance enough vehicles with venom cannons and hive guard which reduced the damage done by the razorbacks, which is the way you should attack this list.

I was able to destroy the speeders early with hive guard

You beat the player, not the list.

CKO wrote:I was able to beat the list today with nids! I was able to destroy the speeders early with hive guard and my swarm of super gaunts was to much to handle for his small units once the razorbacks were destroyed. I claim 1 objective and contested the other to.

I was able to glance enough vehicles with venom cannons and hive guard which reduced the damage done by the razorbacks, which is the way you should attack this list.

How in the world do you destroy 48" range speeders "early" with 24" range weapons without your opponent helping you is beyond me.

So you were able to shoot the speeders and the razorbacks simultaneously with the hive guard. Interesting.

I will clarify a comment someone made.

"You beat a bad player, not the list."

imweasel wrote:

CKO wrote:I was able to beat the list today with nids! I was able to destroy the speeders early with hive guard and my swarm of super gaunts was to much to handle for his small units once the razorbacks were destroyed. I claim 1 objective and contested the other to.

I was able to glance enough vehicles with venom cannons and hive guard which reduced the damage done by the razorbacks, which is the way you should attack this list.

How in the world do you destroy 48" range speeders "early" with 24" range weapons without your opponent helping you is beyond me.

So you were able to shoot the speeders and the razorbacks simultaneously with the hive guard. Interesting.

I will clarify a comment someone made.

"You beat a bad player, not the list."

jealous, do you guys believe av 11 and av 10 is hard to pen when your using str 8-9 ranged weapons.

CKO wrote: jealous, do you guys believe av 11 and av 10 is hard to pen when your using str 8-9 ranged weapons.

When the vast majority of your guns are str 8 and 24" range and the av 10 and 11 are 48"?

Ya. It's very hard. Especially getting that done 'early'.

No, I am not even close to being jealous, unless it's racking up a kill vs someone that has limited skill playing 40k.

"He who shall not be named" lists are not for unskilled players. The 'list' has as many if not more str 7+ ap2 weapons than your list has, if the list you are using is a variation of your 1750 list.

One word corner deployment, with terrain your choices are limited, if you want to have line of sight. With that list your not worried about protecting the razorbacks, as you simply rely on your numbers.

Considering the guy taught me how to play the game, I wouldnt consider him unskilled.

The list has a glass jaw, do you not understand av 11-10, this is not IG where your spaming av 12.

The point they're making is you shouldn't have been able to kill the landspeeders so quickly as a good player will keep them away from you, zoom infront/next to your hive guard and kill you with them next turn. But then later on you said "corner deployment" a little too late.

I agree with Iron and imweasel that you beat a bad player, that list is very good and hard to beat with any list.

I searched on Stelek's blog and couldn't find that list, anyone mind linking it please?

Here you go:
http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/12/critical-mass-maximum-overdrive.html

It's posted after the email, so scroll down a bit.

I find the people surmising that CKO beat a bad player to be hilarious. "Well, the list is perfect, so it must have been the player!"

I think a battle report is in order, with photos.

jealous, do you guys believe

No. Actually, unless you have pictures of you, your 'duff' friend and the two armies you mentioned and write a proper report, I don't believe you played against anyone at all. Like people said, you either beat an unbelievably poor player, or you didn't even play.