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Kevin Nash wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:

Reecius wrote:Agh, that burna squad looks sooooo nasty! I have wanted tor try that for a while myself.

Head over to battle reports - you can see how they did in the GT I was at this weekend.

*holds flame template over squad and says to opponent...*

"How many can I get? Its up to you."

Opponent says, "You've got nine there."

I say, "Ok, great! 15 burnas unloading on your nine guys....what's nine times fifteen?"

Not to diminish the hilarity of that ass kicking you gave those necrons but did you count to see how many hits you actually needed? I'm curious.

I think he means dropping 2 or 3 burnas won't hurt you much, since it will be enough to own anything. 12 burnas will on average wipe out a tactical squad if it hits 5 of them, more than that, and thet're pretty much screwed.

New list looks much better though, I was thinking something more along the lines of this.

Ghaz
KFF Mek-PK

15 Burnas
5 Lootas
5 Lootas

16 Boys-Pk nob
5 Nobz-Painboy,cybork bodies,PK,BG,Waaagh banner, in a Wagon
12 Boys-PK Nob,Trukk
10 Gretchin
10 Gretchin

2 Wagons

9 Rokkit buggies.

Thats 2000, 3 wagons, 9 buggies, and a trukk. wargear isn't exact, but its mostly the same as yours. However, I like the larger Nob squad, so yours is fine, I just feel like this one has more anti tank with all those rokkits. Also, on your nob squad, the Painboy, waaagh banner, and bosspole guy don't need the Ammo runts and kombi weapon, because they're already different.

Dash, do you think the GT changed your perceptions of Ork units at all?

Copying and pasting your list to get a good look at it and for 3rd page posters 4 easy reference:
*******************************************************************************
HQ: Ghazghkull Thraka (In Battlewagon with Burnas)
HQ: Big Mek + KFF + Powerklaw + Grot Oiler (In Battlewagon with Nobs)

Troop1: 16 Ork Boyz + Nob/Powerklaw
Troop2: 12 Ork Boyz + Nob/Powerklaw/Bosspole in Trukk with Boarding Plank / Reinforced Ram
Troop3: 10 Gretchin + Runtherder
Troop4: 7 Nobs with Cybork Bodies, equipped as below:
-Painboy/Ammo Runt
-Waaaugh! Banner/ Ammo Runt
-Bosspole / Kombi-Rokkit
-Powerklaw
-Powerklaw / Kombi-Rokkit
-Big Choppa
-Big Choppa / Kombi-Rokkit
-Dedicated Transport Battlewagon Identical to heavy supports

Elite 1: 15 Burnas
Elite 2: 5 Lootas
Elite 3: 5 Lootas

Fast 1: Deffkopta + Twin-linked Rokkits + Buzzsaw
Fast 2: Deffkopta + Twin-linked Rokkits + Buzzsaw
Fast 3: 3 Warbuggies with Twin-linked Rokkits

Heavy 1: Battlewagon with Deff Rolla, Boarding Planks, Grabbin' Klaw, Big Shoota, Armor Plates
Heavy 2: Battlewagon with Deff Rolla, Boarding Planks, Grabbin' Klaw, Big Shoota, Armor Plates
*******************************************************************************
Eh....something doesn't sit right with me. That is alot fewer ork boyz than your other list; almost half of what you had previously in an 1850 list.

Does this mean you are banking on more durable nobz to power through for your army in assault and cc?

You could drop that last Trukk mob in order to bring along another unit of Nobs, but then again you lose that extra troop slot.

Hmm...have you considered a BW with a killkannon on it to replace the lootas? 1 AP better than lootas and large blast template. Also gives you another BW option if you drop Lootas entirely. BUT the Lootas give you 2 units that can shoot seperately at different things and two units for opponents to have to kill.

Warbuggies= more pain in the ass for opponents. By splitting Lootas and fielding Buggies, your opponent now has more targets to try and hit. Kombined with nobs, this gives your list more per unit survivability, but your ork boyz are vulnerable in the trukk. Lose them and that is 1/3 of your mobile troops gone (assuming gretchin are your home objective holders/loota screen).

Need more time to think on this list.

@Dash
Yeah, I have wanted to run that squad too, as the kill power it has is utterly insane.

I will check out the battle report, sounds painful!

@Snikkyd: The ammo runts aren't to differentiate the nobs - I could do that easily enough without them - rather, kombi-rokkits are a one shot affair, and the ammo runts are intended to make them basically twin-linked single shot. I'm envisioning them dropping out of the transport and preparing to either hit a light transport or boil into a squad, and I'd like them to be able to take out the transport or drop a rokkit or two into the squad they're about to assault. Also, while I like the idea of warbuggies....I think nine is a little excessive just yet. My deffkoptas *do* kill light transports on turn1. I think that if my opponent doesn't have light transports on the table, I need to stop putting them out and start holding them in reserve; but that turn1 transport popper that gives my boyz/Ghazghkull/burnas/nobs something to target is valuable to me. I don't know if warbuggies will be more or less effective, but it will take some playtesting.

@Gornall: A little I think. My deffkoptas didn't really get a chance to shine; I faced a lot of AV14 or no vehicles. I can't lose them though - there will be days when I face off against mechanized IG, and I'm going to NEED that alpha-strike vehicle wrecking power. Lootas - playing them on vassal is much different than in person; TLOS means that where you set up is critical and I ran into issues with them every game - my advancing wagons blocking line of sight, terrain being in the way, not having clear lanes of fire...I brought them for anti-tank, and while they serve to kill light transports adequately enough, I have better tools in my arsenal now, which is why I feel justified reducing their number.

@Warone: A killakannon on a battlewagon changes the fundamentals of my list. It means that I'm not moving 12" per move phase to get up to combat. In terms of having less boyz - I do. I have trouble really counting my Lootas as boyz though; they can't move the whole game or they'd lose their ability to shoot. In terms of boyz...I dropped a unit of 12 boyz to gain 7 nobs (at least that's how I see it.)

I've spoken about warbuggies on this forum before, I used to use them in my mech list. Used to.

I still prefer them to deffkoptas, but with only 1 unit Dash I think you will find them extremely underwhelming. Sure they are an annoyance, but so are lootas and I feel they're way better in most ways. The only thing warbuggies have on lootas is the str 8 and the possible pop on AV13. Thats great, but if a leman russ is harassing you just stun it with the lootas and wait til your deffrollas get into the action.

With the new ruling on deffrollas I really feel that warbuggies aren'y extremely useful. they're only marginally better than lootas at AT, and have far less shots. At this point I think you leave AV 13+ to your deffkoptas and deffrollas. This is also why I advocate a 3 BW list. With the deffrollas becoming your best option for popping heavy vehicles you need as many as you can get. Barring mass melta or lascannon fire, at least one of those are gonna get close enough to roll right into a LR or Monolith. I've found that in most cases 2 make it to the lines for at least one deffrolla crush attack.

I like your list, and I'm not telling you not to take warbuggies, but I think you'll be disapointed in the results. If you are going to take them , take 9 of them. Otherwise, stick with lootas and deffrollas, and of course PK planks

indigo_jones wrote:I've spoken about warbuggies on this forum before, I used to use them in my mech list. Used to.

I still prefer them to deffkoptas, but with only 1 unit Dash I think you will find them extremely underwhelming. Sure they are an annoyance, but so are lootas and I feel they're way better in most ways. The only thing warbuggies have on lootas is the str 8 and the possible pop on AV13. Thats great, but if a leman russ is harassing you just stun it with the lootas and wait til your deffrollas get into the action.

With the new ruling on deffrollas I really feel that warbuggies aren'y extremely useful. they're only marginally better than lootas at AT, and have far less shots. At this point I think you leave AV 13+ to your deffkoptas and deffrollas. This is also why I advocate a 3 BW list. With the deffrollas becoming your best option for popping heavy vehicles you need as many as you can get. Barring mass melta or lascannon fire, at least one of those are gonna get close enough to roll right into a LR or Monolith. I've found that in most cases 2 make it to the lines for at least one deffrolla crush attack.

I like your list, and I'm not telling you not to take warbuggies, but I think you'll be disapointed in the results. If you are going to take them , take 9 of them. Otherwise, stick with lootas and deffrollas, and of course PK planks

My problem with Lootas is line of sight - tables that conform to GW standards for terrain (25%) present line of sight issues for my units of 15 Lootas. I ran into quite a bit of that at my GT this past weekend, and I'm headed to several more GTs over the next few months - where tables have more than token terrain. I'm not bringing the warbuggies to deal with AV13 - I have deffrollas for that. I'm cutting down Lootas to include a unit of warbuggies so that I have the ability to fire on 3 targets instead of 2 per turn. Having a turn1 or turn2 screen against opponent alpha strike, and using them to possibly screen away TH/SS types dumping out of opposing land raiders is useful too.

One way to kombat Loota displacement via terrain may be to gunline them; spread them out as far as possible in order to maximize their spread. To gain terrain kover, only half or more need to be hidden in terrain. With more spread out, it gives you better LOS, but reduces the volume of fire. It also makes it more susceptible to CC when assaulted, but via good placement, you can make it hard for opponents to gain such an advantage over the lootas.

It also looked to me that lootas were generally ignored while reading your battle reports (i.e. one of the last units in lists your enemies left on the table). Buggies get all up in da' grill of opponents, so units would go to smack dat buggie squadron out of the way.

Hey, I never thought of the Kombi rokkits+ammo runts, that might be somewhat useful. I'm sure 9 Buggies is escessive, but I thought it sounded cool. Do what suits you. I just like them more than Deffkoptas, but like I said your list is probably just as good.

Snikkyd wrote:Hey, I never thought of the Kombi rokkits+ammo runts, that might be somewhat useful. I'm sure 9 Buggies is escessive, but I thought it sounded cool. Do what suits you. I just like them more than Deffkoptas, but like I said your list is probably just as good.

That's me alright...paving new ground into orky effectiveness.

indigo_jones wrote:I've spoken about warbuggies on this forum before, I used to use them in my mech list. Used to.

I still prefer them to deffkoptas, but with only 1 unit Dash I think you will find them extremely underwhelming. Sure they are an annoyance, but so are lootas and I feel they're way better in most ways. The only thing warbuggies have on lootas is the str 8 and the possible pop on AV13. Thats great, but if a leman russ is harassing you just stun it with the lootas and wait til your deffrollas get into the action.

With the new ruling on deffrollas I really feel that warbuggies aren'y extremely useful. they're only marginally better than lootas at AT, and have far less shots. At this point I think you leave AV 13+ to your deffkoptas and deffrollas. This is also why I advocate a 3 BW list. With the deffrollas becoming your best option for popping heavy vehicles you need as many as you can get. Barring mass melta or lascannon fire, at least one of those are gonna get close enough to roll right into a LR or Monolith. I've found that in most cases 2 make it to the lines for at least one deffrolla crush attack.

I like your list, and I'm not telling you not to take warbuggies, but I think you'll be disapointed in the results. If you are going to take them , take 9 of them. Otherwise, stick with lootas and deffrollas, and of course PK planks

Mathematically speaking buggies are about half as useful as lootas against AV 12 point for point and a third as useful against AV 11 all other factors being equal, even against AV 13 the Lootas have a better chance of doing something although a pen is not an option.

All that said the Buggies have mobility and the ability to get around LOS issues that the lootas really don't have an option to deal with. The lootas have range, but only over the course of one turn.

I think it's an interesting comparison. The lootas on paper do more damage, but on paper we are ignoring LOS and a number of other factors.

Kevin Nash wrote:Heck I wish by mega armored nobs had cybork and FNP. How nice would that be?

Mad Dok

I advocate buggies (though I enjoy lootas as well) for a couple reasons in these type of lists. First, I think point-for-point, lootas SHOULD win, if you ignore LOS issues, etc. For the cost of 3 buggies, you can have 7 lootas. That's 1.65 S8 hits or 4.67 S7 hits per turn on average; that would seem to favor the lootas. But buggies have certain advantages. One, they move 12" and fire, allowing them to keep up with the convoy and provide point-of-contact fire that the lootas may not (due to LOS and other issues). Two, the are arguably more survivable than lootas (especially with the KFF save) and cannot be tied up by an assault. Three, as a vehicle, they offer some extra maneuver options that lootas, a static aim-and-fire unit, cannot. For example, gunless buggies can still block movement paths and "herd" enemy units, either as a distraction or physical roadblock. Four, they can block LOS and provide cover outside of the KFF, at least for trukks. Five, S8 opens up just a few more options for firing, including AV13 and instant killing wandering ICs with T4. Six, a fast vehicle has a wide range to contest objectives if still around in the late game.

Anyway, both are good choices, but both have solid roles to play. I prefer buggies to deffkoptas because the single units of koptas are pretty much guaranteed to be dead late game and have none of the vehicular advantages of the buggies. For alpha striking, sure, the deffkopta attack is great, but I would limit it to one unit (probably of multiple koptas to greater ensure success) and keep the rest as buggies.

Atode wrote:

Kevin Nash wrote:Heck I wish by mega armored nobs had cybork and FNP. How nice would that be?

Mad Dok

Yeah I know

I've considered trying out a trukk spam MAN list with Mad Dok. One of these days....

You could use 45 Lootas and 9 Rokkit Buggies! Then run a Kan Wall full of Grotzookas with ork shootas 2XSAG Big Mek! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Honestly, it is up to you whether the Ork Rokkit Buggies will do well. Play some Vassal and see how the buggies werk fer ya!

I've used buggies in one vassal game so far against Tyranids..

They instapopped a unit of two zoanthropes. I was going to use them to mulch some warriors, but they didn't have a chance.
Later, they dealt a wound to a trygon, softening it up a tiny bit for a nob assault.
I lost two of them, but the third one fenced in some genestealers from getting to assault a battlewagon.

In terms of pure fire, I agree that the Lootas are a better choice, but I'm trying to encompass everything going on here, not just their rokkit fire.

If my warbuggies absorb any lascannon, melta, or multi-melta fire, they're doing their job. If I can roll my battlewagons forward 12" without fear of being assaulted by TH/SS terminators out of a land raider because I have a physical screen of warbuggies, they've also done well. Using them to channel enemy units or fence things in certain directions is useful too.

If I take them out and add 7 Lootas, I've now got a unit of 5 Lootas and a unit of 12 Lootas. That makes me feel obligated to come up with 45 points to flesh out that Loota unit, and I'm not sure I want to do that. I will be seeing LOS blocking terrain in events, and want to maximize my ability to churn out fire.

I think that 3 buggies gives more firepower than 5 lootas, plus they can block assaults, and even contest if they're still alive. Don't forget to try that.

What I'd do to this list is keep everything the same but kick off the nobs, put in more lootas and another trukk squad, I know that a nob squad can kill almost everything, cyborked and with a painboy, but it eats LOADS of points when I counted how much my 10 nobs in a BW costed (around 500 pts.) I thought, hmm thats 1/4 of my army in a single squad (I was playing 2k atm), I could swich it in and get something else like maybe 2 FULL SQUADS OF LOOTAS. I've tried the nobs build and the build without nobs, I think that when I get 30 lootas to do 90 str 7 ap 3 shots, at a 48'' range, it's better than a couple of str 6 and a couple of str 8 PK attacks. But thats just my 4 3/8 cents.

Hope I helped!

Snikkyd wrote:I think that 3 buggies gives more firepower than 5 lootas, plus they can block assaults, and even contest if they're still alive. Don't forget to try that.

Mathematically they don't, which is kinda funny since 5 lootas cost less than 3 buggies. Point for point lootas are over twice as good as buggies when it comes to raw shooting firepower.

But as you and many other rightly point out, buggies can do a lot of other things that lootas cannot. They have value in other ways.

Kevin Nash wrote:

Snikkyd wrote:I think that 3 buggies gives more firepower than 5 lootas, plus they can block assaults, and even contest if they're still alive. Don't forget to try that.

Mathematically they don't, which is kinda funny since 5 lootas cost less than 3 buggies. Point for point lootas are over twice as good as buggies when it comes to raw shooting firepower.

But as you and many other rightly point out, buggies can do a lot of other things that lootas cannot. They have value in other ways.

Interesting... But they take up different slots, so there's no reason to not have them both.

Like I said, 45 Lootas and 9 Rokkit Buggies, Grotzooka Kan Wall, and 2 SAG Big Meks!

WarOne wrote:Like I said, 45 Lootas and 9 Rokkit Buggies, Grotzooka Kan Wall, and 2 SAG Big Meks!

While that is powerful, its more of a horde list. The rest would be footslogging boys.

so are you running your buggys in front with the BWs in the middle and trukks in the back?

One more point in favor of buggies; they're killer against TMCs, much better than equal points of Lootas. Why? They wound on a 2+ as opposed to a 3+, and they pass right through the 3+ saves that TMCs are usually carrying.

So let's take 7 Lootas vs. 3 buggies against a T6, W6 TMC.

7 Lootas; 7/14/21 shots is 2.33/4.66/7 hits is 1.55/3.1/4.65 wounds is 0.52/1.04/1.56 unsaved. Average of 1.04 wounds per turn, taking a bit under 6 turns of sustained fire to kill.

3 buggies; 3 shots is 1.65 hits is 1.375 wounds, no save. Average of 1.375 wounds per turn, taking a bit over 4 turns of sustained fire to kill. In other words, buggies are about 33% more effective against TMCs than Lootas.

Also, they ID Warriors and other T4 nasties. So in short, buggies tear up Nids in general.

Snikkyd wrote:

WarOne wrote:Like I said, 45 Lootas and 9 Rokkit Buggies, Grotzooka Kan Wall, and 2 SAG Big Meks!

While that is powerful, its more of a horde list. The rest would be footslogging boys.

Did I mention all troop options would be grotz?

Well, the sexy part about Lootas are that they contain a potential 45 shots from a 15 man squad; most of those shots are expect to fail their BS roles mind you. But that sheer volume combined with Str 7, AP 4 makes these units very appealing.

Buggies on the other hand are not as appealing at first glance. One squadron effectively has 6 shots at the same BS, but with a Str 8, lower AP weapon. What makes a rokkit buggy shine is that fact that it is a vehicle squadron, a fast vehicle, and capable of ignoring small arms fire and ability to flank opponents and attempt shots at vehicles with poor rear armor values.

Against Lootas, Rokkit Buggies themselves would be wasted. But where Lootas may be broken by a KP that infiltrates, deepstrikes, templates, CCs them, ect., rokkit buggies are a bit more durable, albeit not by any other army standards of sustainability.

Yeah, I'm not running a foot-slogging ork list.

WarOne wrote:

Snikkyd wrote:

WarOne wrote:Like I said, 45 Lootas and 9 Rokkit Buggies, Grotzooka Kan Wall, and 2 SAG Big Meks!

While that is powerful, its more of a horde list. The rest would be footslogging boys.

Did I mention all troop options would be grotz?

Well, the sexy part about Lootas are that they contain a potential 45 shots from a 15 man squad; most of those shots are expect to fail their BS roles mind you. But that sheer volume combined with Str 7, AP 4 makes these units very appealing.

Buggies on the other hand are not as appealing at first glance. One squadron effectively has 6 shots at the same BS, but with a Str 8, lower AP weapon. What makes a rokkit buggy shine is that fact that it is a vehicle squadron, a fast vehicle, and capable of ignoring small arms fire and ability to flank opponents and attempt shots at vehicles with poor rear armor values.

Against Lootas, Rokkit Buggies themselves would be wasted. But where Lootas may be broken by a KP that infiltrates, deepstrikes, templates, CCs them, ect., rokkit buggies are a bit more durable, albeit not by any other army standards of sustainability.

I actually wrote a Grot list very similar to that once now that I think about it. I never played it since I don't have all those models, but I'm considering it, since it looks really good. Its the Ork's spam list. I used KFF Meks though. So it has 18 vehickes with 4+ saves, and a tone of grots to get objectives, not to mention 45 lootas.

I'll probably make it sometime.



Also, I'm not sure if you have enough to matter, but what about shoota boys instead? They still assault perfectly fine, and cn shoot out their transport if needed. I believe you have 28 Boys? That may be enough.