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Wait, you want everything cheaper but be better at shooting, HTH, have better LD, better anti psyker and better Init.

Yeah, I can see how that makes any sense. Make everything cheaper and better!

Like they need better firepower! I see vet Tau players still whomping tables all the time. If anything players these days know nothing about Tau, so their players almost have an advantage.

Vet Tau players can whomp tables against newbies with any army. Ditto for any Vet with any army against a newbie.

However that sort of thing is quite local. Tau are clearly doing worse on the Tournament scene than before 5e.

The reasons are easy to see; worst initiative combined with worst H2H, worst Ld, and their advantages partly wiped out by changes in 5e. High points costs compared to 5e dexes.

I agree all the weaknesses should not be eliminated. Tau would stop being Tau if they got good at H2H. However, there are definite problems with the army which need to be addressed in a new codex. And, a clear weakness in H2H needs to be balanced with an extra dose of something in another area.

Kilkrazy wrote:Vet Tau players can whomp tables against newbies with any army. Ditto for any Vet with any army against a newbie.

However that sort of thing is quite local. Tau are clearly doing worse on the Tournament scene than before 5e.

The reasons are easy to see; worst initiative combined with worst H2H, worst Ld, and their advantages partly wiped out by changes in 5e. High points costs compared to 5e dexes.

I agree all the weaknesses should not be eliminated. Tau would stop being Tau if they got good at H2H. However, there are definite problems with the army which need to be addressed in a new codex. And, a clear weakness in H2H needs to be balanced with an extra dose of something in another area.

So,in a nutshell,they're hurting in the tournament environment against 5th edition codices...just like pretty much every other army running out of a 3rd or 4th edition codex?

The vast majority of 40k players aren't tournament players,so while they may be suffering somewhat in tourney play,they're still competitive in casual/recreational games.

Like I said,naturally,they're hurting against 5th edition 'dexes,but are they that much worse off than CSM,Eldar,DA,BT,Necrons,DH,WH,or DE? I'd put Tau behind Eldar and CSM and definately ahead of DA,'crons,DH,WH,and DE. Do they need a buff compared to 5th ed 'dexes? Yes,of course they do,but so does everybody else. Do they need a buff compared to the other armies waiting for their 5th ed dex? No,not really.

Whatever1 wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Vet Tau players can whomp tables against newbies with any army. Ditto for any Vet with any army against a newbie.

However that sort of thing is quite local. Tau are clearly doing worse on the Tournament scene than before 5e.

The reasons are easy to see; worst initiative combined with worst H2H, worst Ld, and their advantages partly wiped out by changes in 5e. High points costs compared to 5e dexes.

I agree all the weaknesses should not be eliminated. Tau would stop being Tau if they got good at H2H. However, there are definite problems with the army which need to be addressed in a new codex. And, a clear weakness in H2H needs to be balanced with an extra dose of something in another area.

So,in a nutshell,they're hurting in the tournament environment against 5th edition codices...just like pretty much every other army running out of a 3rd or 4th edition codex?

The vast majority of 40k players aren't tournament players,so while they may be suffering somewhat in tourney play,they're still competitive in casual/recreational games.

Like I said,naturally,they're hurting against 5th edition 'dexes,but are they that much worse off than CSM,Eldar,DA,BT,Necrons,DH,WH,or DE? I'd put Tau behind Eldar and CSM and definately ahead of DA,'crons,DH,WH,and DE. Do they need a buff compared to 5th ed 'dexes? Yes,of course they do,but so does everybody else. Do they need a buff compared to the other armies waiting for their 5th ed dex? No,not really.

It's funny how everyone who says their army is lacking would like to put their dex at the point between books that do quite well but at the front of those in desperate need of an update, those that existed back in the time before the long, long ago.

A possibility of a new Farsight model is all I seem to be able to take from this . . . I can see a new sig coming on if they do . . . the history of O'shovah . . . by Oshova . . . The illiterate brother =p

Oshova

Yorick_of_Tau wrote:Seriously, how many imperial armies are left out there, anyway?

If they ever run out they'll just make up new ones.

"Hey Space Marine players, we here at the studio realized that the Salamanders and White Scars aren't all that 'codex' after all, so they'll be getting their own shortly! Get ready for the long-awaited and much-deserved Space Marine love we have planned (and give us all your money) this summer! For the Emperor!

And if that's not enough then be on the look-out for the Iron Hands and Imperial Fists this fall! We have something in the works for everyone [who plays Marines], stay tuned!"

juraigamer wrote:Most people just don't know how to use them properly is all.

lolz, I love this attitude that Vespid-users have. Vespid are awesome, every other Tau player is just too stupid to make them work.



The fact that you've apparently had success with them doesn't mean they aren't a crap unit.

Whatever1 wrote:The vast majority of 40k players aren't tournament players,so while they may be suffering somewhat in tourney play,they're still competitive in casual/recreational games.

...ermm..."competitive" does not equal "casual/recreational".

Whatever1 wrote:I'd put Tau behind Eldar and CSM

Both of those books came out after Tau Empire, though. Why should they take precedence?

Whatever1 wrote:and definately ahead of DA,'crons,DH,WH,and DE.

Now that makes no sense, all of those books (especially Necrons) are needing updates pretty badly as they're 3rd edition codices. Well, except DA, but DA are so bad they should get one anyway just to make up for the gakky job that Jervis did.

I agree wholeheartedly that Tau need a new Codex...

Just not before DE/Necrons.


The Idea of more to the "Tau Empire" would be pretty neat as well, IMO.

Sidstyler wrote:

Whatever1 wrote:I'd put Tau behind Eldar and CSM

Both of those books came out after Tau Empire, though. Why should they take precedence?

they're more fun at parties and bring better booze maybe

Sidstyler wrote:

Whatever1 wrote:The vast majority of 40k players aren't tournament players,so while they may be suffering somewhat in tourney play,they're still competitive in casual/recreational games.

...ermm..."competitive" does not equal "casual/recreational".

Whatever1 wrote:I'd put Tau behind Eldar and CSM

Both of those books came out after Tau Empire, though. Why should they take precedence?

Whatever1 wrote:and definately ahead of DA,'crons,DH,WH,and DE.

Now that makes no sense, all of those books (especially Necrons) are needing updates pretty badly as they're 3rd edition codices. Well, except DA, but DA are so bad they should get one anyway just to make up for the gakky job that Jervis did.

How do you mean competitive doesn't equal casual/rec? The current Tau list still plays well in the typical playing environment. Now,for tourney play,they're a bit underpowered,but then again,so are most of the codices from 3rd/4th.

I probably should've worded that better. I meant as far as POWER LEVEL goes,not in what order the books should come out in. I think Tau are worse than Eldar and CSM,on par with BT,and better than DA,Necrons,DH,WH,and DE at this point in time,but I can see where the confusion came from. My bad.

Necrons are completely hosed at this point in time. I see people struggling to win games even in a casual environment with them. Most people around where I live have either given up on them 'til they get a new 'dex,or the few games they do win are against people that aren't aware of the "Phase Out" rule. From a strictly rules standpoint,they probably need a redo the most. Inquisition appears to be after BA,so they're kind of a moot point. DA are flat out awful,which I can tell you from first hand experience,but it's hard to slam your fist and demand a new book when Necrons and DE have been waiting so much longer. I don't think they neccessarily did a bad job writing the DA codex. I think it was just their intention to nerf everybody's 'dex from then on out,but there was so much outcry and backlash over DA that they decided to start tooling up the power level instead of nerfing it.

horsa wrote:I would expect a new Dex, assuming they do one, either in 2011 or 2012. Probably just before they introduce a new rule set which will make the new Tau dex obsolete again!

Areas that I really think the Tau need help:

1) Reduce point cost on most if not all units.
2) Clarify rules. A GW weakness, so not hopeful. Ask Tyranid players if you disagree.
3) Some anti-psyker ability. Unlikely.
4) Some serious HTH ability. Unlikely.
5) Increased firepower. The Tau are behind the curve now since their HTH is not great.
6) Some way of improving LDR if not Init.
7) Replace the XV8 model. The current model is now in a bad state and often comes warped.
8) New models would be nice. The XV9 is expensive in points. I sincerely hope this will not be the trend. There is talk of an XV5 or 6.
9) Plastic Vespeds and Pathfinders at a minimum.
The list goes on but it is pointless to continue. Tau are a fun army to play and can give anyone a good game but it is not a serious contender in tournaments. Surprises do happen though.

Yeah, I like playing Space Marines too.

It was how you said it, something along the lines of "Tau can still play competitively in casual games".

Casual gaming is not competitive gaming, they aren't synonymous terms.

Although I do better in casual play, Tau can perform adequately in tournaments. The problem I run into is that there are some armies that I really struggle against. IG is not one of them.

If I win the first game or two, I am most likely going to run into such armies. KP games Tau can win. Objective games are far more difficult. I find chaos SM with twin lash to be a hard proposition, especially the plague marine variety. Biker armies, if played well, are very difficult to handle too. In fact, any army that can hit your gunline by turn two and if they move first, can be very difficult to even draw against without luck. Regular SM, either in DP or LR style, IG and many other armies are a threat but can be beaten. I have not played against the new Tyranid list yet, so I do not know where that one stands.

The other issue that crops up is point size for tournaments. Some armies just get stronger, the more points they get. Tau seem to stay flat. We will see what the future brings but until a new codex is released, everything is just so much wishful thinking.

I really don't hope Tau doesn't get the next codex. I'd rather someone who really needs or deserves a new release first gets it, like Inquisition, Necrons, or Dark Eldar.

They seem to have gotten hit pretty hard by 5E but I really think other codices need it more: the three above need some serious model and balance work.

Brother SRM wrote:Yeah, I like playing Space Marines too.

Oh please. It's not as if he's asking for Marines to be made into Tau. There are legitimate concerns there.

My personal wishlist for Tau changes to the 'dex:

1) Ability to engage in a 'combat withdrawal' when equipped with Pulse Carbines in lieu of being stuck into assault.
2) None of this power weapons for Battlesuits crap. This isn't Gundam Wing. The Tau don't exchange ranged weapons to get close and smack things with swords(well...except Farsight, but we all know he's a loon). Battlesuits should be able to take Fletchette Dischargers from the vehicle armory, and again--some form of special rule attached to say, a Flamer or Burst Cannon that allows them to make a round of shooting attacks at close range as they retreat would be exceptional here.
3) Hammerheads and Skyrays moved to squadron format, like every other tank/heavy creature seems to be moving towards.
4) Pathfinder teams get broken into two unit selections:
Pathfinder 'Insurgency' Teams, equipped with a Devilfish and the standard fittings and Pathfinder 'Recon' Teams(which come without a Devilfish but can take more Rail Rifles than the Insurgency Team).
5) Get rid of Ethereals and replace the HQs with:
Kroot Shaper
--Allows for more Kroot options to be taken, but removes access to the 'heavier' tech of the Tau.
Tau Shas'el/Shas'o and Shas'vre Bodyguards.
--Comes on foot as standard. Can upgrade to XV-22, XV-25, or XV-89/whatever suits.

I just want a points cost reduction across the board to bring thngs in line with 5th Edition 'dexes. But I'm willing to wait until DH/WH, Necrons or DE get done. They all need it more.

I've seen this attitude a lot and, for whatever reason, a lot of Tau players are perfectly content with what little they already have.

Maybe it's just because Tau Empire sucked so much ass and the only good thing we got was the piranha, but people don't want anything new whatsoever. Screw that, there better be some damn changes in the next Tau codex and not another half-hearted, half-assed "We're GW and we don't know what the feth we're doing with Tau" crap like with Tau Empire or I'll never play Tau again.

I want the same treatment other 5th edition armies are getting. I want to see stuff shuffled around into other slots (stealths being overpriced and forced to compete with XV8s = boxes of stealth suits collect dust on store shelves), I want to see points drop, I want more characters, I want more new units and vehicles and I want them all to be viable. I want to be able to create a plethora of competitive lists and not just one really good build like every other codex that age.

My wish list for the next Tau codex:

-Add the Great Knarloc (Hey, nids got the Trygon)
-Add the Barracuda (not a power house unit, but fun)
-Kroot Special Character (preferably bring back Aknor Prok)
-Vespid Special Character (and new rules for vespid)
-The ability to take marker drones on vehicals (like the apoc formation)
-Make Sniper drones and Elite choice
-Make the current special issue wargear standard, and make new special issue gear.
-More alien auxillaries/ Add Human aux to the codex.
-Some weapon options for the Kroot Shaper would be welcome.
-Farsight = unlock Crisissuits as troop choice
-Shadowsun = unlock Stealthsuits as troop choice

I selected Tau knowing full well they were not the most competitive of armies. I just liked the background, units and overall philosophy. I enjoy 40k as a game as it is fairly fast to play. Unfortunately, I am starting to get bored. The reason is simply that most of my opponents field the same old SM and IG armies that I have seen many times. I know which ones I have a good shot at beating and which ones I will struggle with. It has gotten to the stage where I want to scream every time I have to play another IG army.

There is almost no imagination now in the armies that I face. They are built to win and mostly against opposing mech and horde types. My own forces are neither, so I often pull out a win as my opponent is not used to facing such an army. I usually am the only Tau player in a tournament and I usually finish in the middle of the pack somewhere. I usually win the first one or two and then face an army I just cannot beat with the scenario rules that are often given. I have faced opponents with armies that play slow and sit on objectives so that there are just not enough turns to kill enough of them to win. How do you beat armies in 4 turns with firepower alone? Not easily! Although I have tabled IG and SM armies in that time frame, it is not a given.

Even Tyranids have better weapons than we do! Tau have no protection from psykers either. Fluff wise they are supposed not to be that effected, yet they are the most vulnerable.

Bottom line: I need more firepower. 9 Railguns are just not enough!

Those are all nice ideas and the increase in H2H power by improving/adding Kroot and Human units can be limited by making them 2- picks.

IMO there needs to be a change to make basic FW squads more useful. Just making them cheaper wouldn't be as good as keeping them the same price and making them more effective.

A re-think of markerlights is important to sorting out Tau.

I overheard some GW staff talking about Tau stuff but quickly swapped subject to next months new dredds and kans when they saw I was listening.
I can smell a rat...

Well,

I've seen playing Necrons some weeks ago at my place, and God they were horrible. Rules that were a mess and incapable of having a nice game due to doubts.

Naaa, you can't play with Codex too olds. Tau needs a codex too, but many others needs a newer one... Necrons and Dark Eldars in primis.

I'd love to see all the main legions following their own codex, but it's absurd to have all of them in different manuals and even if I'm a SM to the core... dammit the other needs updates. Otherwise the game gets boring and hacked somehow.

I would like to see Angkor Prok come back and redone.

*Make it so when you take Angkor Prok as an HQ choice he reduces the cost of all Kroot models to show the Kroot are more willing to follow one of their own then anyone else.

*Krootox, does anyone use them? Seems like a redo needs to be done on them or a different Kroot like model.

*At the most I want to be able to take Kroot, Vespid, Humans and Squat as options to replace Tau. Then after that no more alien allies for Tau...too many and the army becomes too polluted with options.

*All suits (Broadside and Crisis) have their models redone.

*Make Ethereals less like figureheads.

I know there's a lot of wishlisting in this thread, but some of the suggestions are quite possible.

I could see GW releasing a conversion kit (a la Space Wolves) for Gue'vesa/human auxiliaries, as well as official support. It'd be easy to do and it'd probably make its points back.

Different crisis suit variants are almost a given, considering that the Tau codex is a good deal lighter on options than most 5e codexes.

I think we could, actually, see CC Tau. Farsight would be an HQ option that could allow access to Battlesuit power weapons, better initiative, etc. That'd allow for multiple builds as well as selling models to the people that want Tau to be more Gundam-like.

Add in some forgeworld model support, lower points pretty much across the board, a few new kits, and think of a way to make Tau supremely shooty again (let's face it, S10 AP1 isn't so scary now that we have medusas and new zoanthropes) and you have a fairly easy and much-needed release.

Paladin Blake wrote:I know there's a lot of wishlisting in this thread, but some of the suggestions are quite possible.

I could see GW releasing a conversion kit (a la Space Wolves) for Gue'vesa/human auxiliaries, as well as official support. It'd be easy to do and it'd probably make its points back.

Different crisis suit variants are almost a given, considering that the Tau codex is a good deal lighter on options than most 5e codexes.

I think we could, actually, see CC Tau. Farsight would be an HQ option that could allow access to Battlesuit power weapons, better initiative, etc. That'd allow for multiple builds as well as selling models to the people that want Tau to be more Gundam-like.

Add in some forgeworld model support, lower points pretty much across the board, a few new kits, and think of a way to make Tau supremely shooty again (let's face it, S10 AP1 isn't so scary now that we have medusas and new zoanthropes) and you have a fairly easy and much-needed release.

Yeah I have been going over the dex and have seen that they are somewhat underpowered compared to a 5e army, and with how fast Tau advance tech fluff wise it would not be to much to turn rail guns to be lancers. Other buffs would nice, but as fluff goes CC Tau are straching it . As far as I see it kroot and Ethereals can stay home, but some people like them so put them in I just won't take them.

Nah, I think it's actually just a matter of time until we see CC Tau. The codex is pretty clear that Farsight sees the value of close combat skill, and it says that his Fire Warriors train in CC. I think main Tau Empire troops won't get anything good for CC (if anything, they may even get worse), but I'm fairly positive Farsight Enclave lists will see something. What that is remains to be seen, but I'd expect a bump in WS and Initiative (probably), with potential for some wargear options.

well if we join the Big boys (from the forgeworld rulles) of the kroots we get a good CC capacity.

And yes Tau, Necron, Dark Angels and Dark Eldar need a review.

was for eldar and witchunters we can get a good list from their dex´s, they are still playable!!

Paladin Blake wrote:Nah, I think it's actually just a matter of time until we see CC Tau. The codex is pretty clear that Farsight sees the value of close combat skill, and it says that his Fire Warriors train in CC. I think main Tau Empire troops won't get anything good for CC (if anything, they may even get worse), but I'm fairly positive Farsight Enclave lists will see something. What that is remains to be seen, but I'd expect a bump in WS and Initiative (probably), with potential for some wargear options.

That would be sweet, I would even put up with the limits on the heavy stuff to get a Tau that are better in CC, I have always liked Farsight but he just did not seem to "work " to well in the current codex.

Wish listing here: Farsight limits on shooty troops (like now), but you get access to power weapons and +1 to WS and I Tau would still have a vary hard time in CC but they would at least have a chance, and BTW keep the Preferred Enemy(Orks). Alas I don't think that it will happen because what I have seen of 5e dexes is they are getting away from the 1+ and 0-1 kinda stuff, but hey they may make losing Kroot, Vespids, Ethereals, and etc such a hit that it could balance.

the HQ's definitely need the biggest boost as none of the special characters (except MAYBE farsight) are remotely worth taking and 1 of the 2 available standard HQ's is abhored by most players. the new theme of HQ's changing the force org would fit well with the tau ethos in that the commander and ethereal has complete control over the makeup and tactics of the force, unlike the IG which follows rigid protocols with commissars to enforce them. farsight could make crisis suits troops at the cost of any ethereals and allied races. anghor could open up other choices like heavy support kroot gunners and fast attack hounds (and possibily gnarlocs and greater gnarloc). the rest of the stuff could get buy with simply point discounts but i'd prefer an overall comprehensive rewrite. the tau empire codex came out while i wasn't playing 40k (4th edition) and i was quite suprised how *little* changed from the original tau codex. the special characters were tweaked (mainly for the worse) as were prices, and two new units IIRC (pirahna and vespid) were added. while i agree that they're not the army *most* in need of a rewrite, they're definitely in the top 25%

I'd really appreciate another suit option, maybe like the hazard suits on Forgeworld. Also, Kroot Hounds need to be their own unit; I hate having to take 10 kroot to get any hounds at all.

Though it would be nice if farsight's troops got CC boosts, they shouldn't be too powerful. Tau would lose their flavor if they became actually good at CC. What I'd like would be ways not to get raped in CC, as opposed to ways to be good at it. For instance, hit-and run (vectored retro-thrusters) as a normal upgrade, not special issue.
This would make us more resilient vs H2H, but it wouldn't make Tau cheesy and overly balanced/good.