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I'll put in a request for Bloodquest, as I only ever found Volumes 1 & 2 (of 3) and I want to know how it all ended!

Kid_Kyoto wrote:I should be able to finish the book tomorrow. Any request for the next RETRO REVIEW?

Some I'm thinking of:
Rogue Trader
Leviathan (Kevin Smith mini wargame early 90s)
Mutant Chronicles RPG
Chronicles of Talislanta (crazy RPG early 90s)
Blood Quest: The Quest for Blood (pretty decent 40k comic early 2000s)
Obvious Tactics (pretty awful 40k comic early 2000s)

Requests?

I would've said Rogue Trader but I recently found it on Scribd (I love that website btw) but it'd be worth it just for your hilarious commentary.

Talislanta sounds interesting!

BTW my updated rules for the Sensei should be coming around soon!

Stuff published in the late 90s and early 2000s as a retro review...now you're just trying to make me feel old.

From your list I'd probably be most interested in the Rogue Trader era stuff though I don't think I've even heard of Leviathan so consider that a second. For the visual medium aspect any of the comic books seem a good idea.

In more general requests I'd vote for Dungeon! (the old D&D board game) or really any of the old classic adventure series (Temple of Elemental Evil, Against the Giants or the epic H series with Throne of Bloodstone - the official highest level adventure ever published (for characters level 20-100 if I recall correctly))

I'm pretty confident whatever you choose will be enjoyable though.

Blood Quest. Loads of comedic opportunities there.

this was great!

Kid_Kyoto wrote:I should be able to finish the book tomorrow. Any request for the next RETRO REVIEW?

Some I'm thinking of:
Rogue Trader
Leviathan (Kevin Smith mini wargame early 90s)
Mutant Chronicles RPG
Chronicles of Talislanta (crazy RPG early 90s)
Blood Quest: The Quest for Blood (pretty decent 40k comic early 2000s)
Obvious Tactics (pretty awful 40k comic early 2000s)

Requests?

You being only the 5th person I have ever heard mention talislanta in the nearly 20 years I have enjoyed it, I am requesting that.

Stephen Michael Sechi, the creator, also is a musician apparently, and recorded three albums as a roleplaying soundtrack for background music. They arent bad either and some are quite good, especially considering most were made during the mid nineties. Finding the last album, wizard hunter, is tough though. Music sample included with the file attachment in this post. I contacted Mr. Sechi about them and he has no way of distributing the old music. Apparently he is now a jazz musician.

If you do talislanta, be sure to include oodles of the art by P.D. Breeding-Black. Thats some fine stuff.

Plus, I am sure you enjoy the main motto of Talislanta "No Elves!"

That's awesome about SMS. I had a couple of the Talislanta books back in the late 80s, and I agree that the PD Breeding-Black art and all the odd ideas and races make it an absolutely ideal candidate for a retro review.

I also agree with Thor that a retro review of stuff from later than the 80s feels premature.

JB wrote:Did you already do Gamma World?

Oh, yes!

I LOVED this game when it was released - the 1st edition one, of course.

I didn't like the 2nd edition one at all...

That Elric section makes me want to go listen to Blue Oyster Cult albums.

I've got this book somewhere - but not the wit that goes with these reviews. Keep up the good work.

Just a quick note on Arioch:

I am sure you are aware that the Knight of Swords was not "the" god of chaos but a god amongst a larger pantheon including Xiombarg, Mabelode, Slortar, etc. that reached across several books. Arioch was notable as Elric's patron and a driving force behind the recovery of Stormbringer. He was never defeated by the blade, IIRC, though he was leery of the blade. Indeed, it is implied by the group from Elric the End of Time (Tales of the White Wolf) that Arioch may be something other than a god entirely!

He is also pretty much the inspiration for Slaanesh.

Gwar! wrote:

Thor665 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:And of course, in today's "4th Ed" D&D, it's the Nine Hecks, there are no bewbies to be seen and you can't even be a Monk or Chaotic Good :(

You can't be chaotic good? Did they just totally rework the alignment system?

If by "Rework" you mean "Completely and utterly rape to oblivion". They changed it so now there are only 5 Alignments "Good" "Evil" "Lawful Good" "Chaotic Evil" and "Unaligned". Yup, you can't even be a True Neutral Druid. Oh wait, you can't be any form of Druid, because they didn't include them as a base class either!

I'd say it's more an admission that 'alignment' is a concept that has been either ignored, used as DM bludgeon, or misunderstood for most of the game's life. Many groups default on 'Adventurous Greedy' as it's a lot more practical. Sure, a few characters might have been Lawful Good for legal reasons, but that was often ignored. If it wasn't, it could be sued as a very not-fun stick to poke the players with to get them to go in the right direction or their magic powers stopped working.

I can understand some of the complaints about 4th edition D&D, but alignment is a very trivial one. The main thing is the core game concept was changed to better incorporate 'tags' for abilities to key off of, and apparently some designers felt the ancient two-axis system was too many. There aren't many abilities/items in the core materials that tag off 'good' or 'evil' anyway, really.

And the current system seems to include 'druid' as a base class, albeit in PHB1... But PHB2 is a core book, so if you want a druid there it is. The druid is also not just a 'weird cleric' anymore, as it usually was in the base versions. (I think in 2nd edition it got a few extra weapons (but was still no fighter!) and some wacky abilities in return for a different spell list from a normal cleric. The new version is a less flexible shapeshifter (as the 3rd edition version was considered very easy to abuse) but looks a bit more unique as it no longer shares powers with clerics. The 2nd edition version of druid was also very 'setting specific' as I believe the druid hierarchy was essentially rolled into the class structure. (I.E. a level X druid was of a certain rank and there could only be a set number of druids at that rank... So if you wanted to advance you had to hope other high-level druids would die off. Or was that the monk? or both?)

Balance wrote:I'd say it's more an admission that 'alignment' is a concept that has been either ignored, used as DM bludgeon, or misunderstood for most of the game's life. Many groups default on 'Adventurous Greedy' as it's a lot more practical. Sure, a few characters might have been Lawful Good for legal reasons, but that was often ignored. If it wasn't, it could be sued as a very not-fun stick to poke the players with to get them to go in the right direction or their magic powers stopped working.

Depends entirely, I imagine, on the proclivities of the group in question. As a huge fan of Planescape and the D&D multiverse as outlined there; I found infinite fun in the various vagaries of the alignment system. Though, as long as you're defending it can you explain how Lawful only equates with good and Chaos only equates with evil now?

The main thing is the core game concept was changed to better incorporate 'tags' for abilities to key off of, and apparently some designers felt the ancient two-axis system was too many. There aren't many abilities/items in the core materials that tag off 'good' or 'evil' anyway, really.

Tags I'm guessing are effects that trigger off of various character states? (like extra damage versus good, or fighter, or human, et al?) Back in the old days there were a large plethora of effects that triggered off of the good and evil (and law and chaos) alignments. Certainly if they took those aspects out they would also remove effects that 'tagged' off of them.

The druid is also not just a 'weird cleric' anymore, as it usually was in the base versions. (I think in 2nd edition it got a few extra weapons (but was still no fighter!)...
The 2nd edition version of druid was also very 'setting specific' as I believe the druid hierarchy was essentially rolled into the class structure. (I.E. a level X druid was of a certain rank and there could only be a set number of druids at that rank... So if you wanted to advance you had to hope other high-level druids would die off. Or was that the monk? or both?)

In 2nd edition the druid was a 'weird cleric' with a specialized spell list, shapeshifting abilities, and other special quirks. It never felt like a cleric in my opinion. You are correct that the level system equated out to a ranking system for druids. In addition to waiting for other druids to die off (presuming your DM ruled that such level druids were in the area) there was also the ability for a druid to seek out an unprotected area to cleanse and protect and make his own - which could lead to some awesome storylines.

Thor665 wrote:

Balance wrote:I'd say it's more an admission that 'alignment' is a concept that has been either ignored, used as DM bludgeon, or misunderstood for most of the game's life. Many groups default on 'Adventurous Greedy' as it's a lot more practical. Sure, a few characters might have been Lawful Good for legal reasons, but that was often ignored. If it wasn't, it could be sued as a very not-fun stick to poke the players with to get them to go in the right direction or their magic powers stopped working.

Depends entirely, I imagine, on the proclivities of the group in question. As a huge fan of Planescape and the D&D multiverse as outlined there; I found infinite fun in the various vagaries of the alignment system. Though, as long as you're defending it can you explain how Lawful only equates with good and Chaos only equates with evil now?

The main idea is that the concept is based around a single axis system, so "Lawful good" and "Chaotic Evil" are essentially "Supergood" and "Superevil." I'll completely admit it's not the best part of the rules set (I'll explain the parts I like below).

A big feature of 4th edition is that it really tries to level the playing field. D&D, to me, has always been very friendly to the kind of games where the GM is not quite an adversary, but is expected to challenge the players a bit. Some RPGs focus on the GM as an impartial moderator, some as more of a lead storyteller, but D&D has always been more welcoming for the GM who wants to make challenging dungeons, even if it's in a position where the GM has to make 'appropriate' opposition. GMs generally have the power to play the 'Rocks fall. Everybody dies' card but this isn't fun, so the game generally has an unwritten social contract that specifies what the GM can and cannot do.

So 4th edition equalizes the players as everyone has Cool Stuff: The Paladins are constantly using special divinely-powered moves, Fighters and Rouges have tricks to use in combat, etc. The Powers, as these are generalized as, are somewhat MMO-ish, but they're really more like the special abilities seen in various tactics computer games. At each level a power or two is given. The power curves between classes are a bit more level, so the fighters don't go from the only ones who can survive combat to useles smeat shields once the wizards get enough spells.

The GM gets more interesting opposition to use, too. The monster lists aren't just "Ork, Kobold, Goblin" but are more complex. Ork, for example, might have a ready-to-go Ork Grunt, an Ork Veteran, an Ork Warlord, and an Ork Shaman. Each has differing stats, a couple special powers (Often linked, so the Warlord might boost nearby Veterans, and Veterans adjacent to each other might get an additional bonus) and is generally an interesting opponent instead of a tiny ball of HP.

One thing I like is that the system detaches a lot of the 'Role Playing' and 'Combat' bits and tries to make each interesting.

It does this by focusing on the combat side, admittedly, but that is much more interesting for me than previous additions. Powers generally key off four different defensive numbers, so some attacks may roll against AC, while others go after reflex (Like the old touch attacks, or a lot of bursts), will (Mind controlling attacks), or another I can't currently think of. Power also are keyed to various tags such as character states... So a sword might do extra damage to Infernal creatures, or similar. Anyway, i think the loss of a couple alignments was, to me, made up for by the addition of some useful stuff to make combat more interesting.

The 'role playing' side is not completely ignored. There's the expected skills, but to be honest a lot more of talking seems to actually be up to the players and GM, well, talking. One thing that is an interesting switch is that as most combat spells have now been made into Powers, the non-combat spells are now rituals. They take longer to cast and are more expensive, but they're there. However, the game fully encourages a certain amount of 'niche protection' as no character is an island. In previous editions, a wizard could use spells and effectively make other characters nearly obsolete. Knock is either no longer available or is an expensive ritual, so a Thief is again useful.

4th edition D&D isn't the 'ultimate RPG' to me (because I don't feel there is one) but it's a fun system for 'classic' D&D feel: Wander around, fight monsters, be heros. I don't think it would be as easy to use as a base for other settings like 3.0 was (Even including WotC's licensing weirdness), but that's not a problem to me as there's better systems for games with a different focus. D&D 4th is not perfect, but it is Fun.

For Planescape as you mention you could still add the Factions easily. I've heard the upcoming Dark Sun setting does something similar that could be cribbed. Each Faction would be a Feat or similar that gives some sort of bonus or unique Power, and would be a prerequisite for faction-specific Prestige Classes (Level 11-20 class options) or Epic Destinies (21-30). My Planescape is a bit rusty, but joining the Dustmen might mechanically mean roleplaying the introduction (Possibly before start-of-game, of course), taking the Dustmen initiate feat, then considering if the Emissary of Nothing Epic Destiny makes sense when the time comes. (The Emisssary of Nothing was pulled from my rear, by the way).

The druid option of securing a wild area is certainly an option, but the guys I played with would have never liked to have characters settle down like that.

Balance wrote:The 'role playing' side is not completely ignored. There's the expected skills, but to be honest a lot more of talking seems to actually be up to the players and GM, well, talking.

OK, here to me is the massive difference between the old system (2.0 and earlier) and the new system (3.0 and later). In short, with the old system, D&D is more art than science. In the new system, it is more science than art. Read through the early works and the rules are very much like guidelines. The DM is expected to step in and fine-tune. Roleplaying through the tough questions is expected, and more, it is encouraged. To me, this is what makes the old system MAGIC.

As time went on, the rules became more and more important - not as just guidelines and inspiration anymore, but as hard-and-fast commands that characters (and DMs) can never break. I was playing a game of D&D (4.0) where a comrade had fallen. "I step over him," I say, "and I protect him." The DM said, "You can't. That's an occupied square." "But it's 5x5," I say, "There should be at least some room for me to stand." "Nope," says the DM, "The rules don't allow it. It's an occupied square."

This is a metaphor for the entire "new" D&D experience - less room to move. Less for players, less for DMs. Every single question is answered, it is the perfect BOARD GAME, but is this roleplaying? Not the way it used to be. In fact, there are even rules re: how much talking is allowed during a combat round. Where has my grand soliloquy gone? Or the villian's evil retort? Where is the Roleplaying???

Surely it is more than just talking between combats.

Well, that's how I see it. Early D&D - mostly art with just enough in the way of rules to create a framework. Later D&D - just enough Roleplaying to be able to continue claiming that it is an RPG - but mostly, and predominantly, all the significant actions you can and can't take are spelled out explicity throughout the (very tight) rules of the game.

Let's take feats for example. In earlier versions of the game, some of these cool moves were up to the imagination of the players and up to the DM. Now, if you don't have the feat, you can't do it. So what CAN you do? Well, you can do the same "good" attacks every single round and as for the rest, the creative stuff that used to spice up combats, well, they're probably the feats you don't have.

Ah well, that's my take on it! I like the new system, I really am a rules-guy, but as for the magic, the wonder, the open environment where the sky is the limit, well, it just isn't the same somehow.

Sorry for the derail, KK!

Solorg wrote:

Balance wrote:The 'role playing' side is not completely ignored. There's the expected skills, but to be honest a lot more of talking seems to actually be up to the players and GM, well, talking.

OK, here to me is the massive difference between the old system (2.0 and earlier) and the new system (3.0 and later). In short, with the old system, D&D is more art than science. In the new system, it is more science than art. Read through the early works and the rules are very much like guidelines. The DM is expected to step in and fine-tune. Roleplaying through the tough questions is expected, and more, it is encouraged. To me, this is what makes the old system MAGIC.

For my money, 4th actually toned that stuff back from 3rd. 3.x had much more stuff defined and categorized and exhaustively catalogued. While 4th has cleaned up, stripped down and simplified all of the base mechanics. It’s left more room for DMs to add the decorative gubbins. I think a lot of new DMs are scared to do so, though, because the math of the system design appears to be so tightly balanced, that they’re worried about tinkering.

Solorg wrote:As time went on, the rules became more and more important - not as just guidelines and inspiration anymore, but as hard-and-fast commands that characters (and DMs) can never break. I was playing a game of D&D (4.0) where a comrade had fallen. "I step over him," I say, "and I protect him." The DM said, "You can't. That's an occupied square." "But it's 5x5," I say, "There should be at least some room for me to stand." "Nope," says the DM, "The rules don't allow it. It's an occupied square."

This, IMO, is just bad play. Yes, the system is now clear and simple, and the combat grid allows you to play it AS a boardgame, but it’s still not a boardgame. That DM should re-read his DMG.

& I'm back. I plan to finish tonight so this might end up being a long one.


D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D

So with the Nehwon Mythos done naturally you'd think the Norse would be up next.

You'd be wrong. We still have the Non-Human Deities to soldier through!

This is an interesting chapter since up until now everything has been (more or less) drawing on myth or someone else's fiction. But here Wood, Gygax and all the rest really get to create something new, to really show us how original they can be. Let's see how they do.



OK, so the Dwarfs get a 20' tall dwarf with a hammer who likes to forge stuff. Yep. Anyone shocked here?

Let's move on.



Now the elfs, the elfs get 7' tall elf with a sword and a bow who's a multi-classed Fighter/Magic User. Any shocks yet? Well how about this? It seems Corellon Larethian swings both ways, able to appear as male, female, both or neither, making Corellon the most LGBT-friendly deity ever! How's that?

Actually I don't think that counts as a shock either.

Never mind.



Ah Lolth, the Washington Generals of Dungeons and Dragons. While TSR actively discouraged players from going out and trying to beat up Zeus they actually wrote an adventure (Module Q1 - Queen of the Demonweb Pits) where you get to kick down the gates of Lolth's personal lair in the Abyss, storm her giant mechanical spider/castle/fortress thing and kill her in her own throne room. I know I've DM'ed over her death three or four times.

By the way not only does Lolth have her own wikipedia page, Queen of the Demonweb Pits has its own page! Her humiliation will live forever. It's like having the time your pants fell down during your own graduation ceremony up on Youtube. Or um, so I hear.

And really what do you expect from a 'Lesser Goddess' with only 66 hit points? Skullcrusher had more hit points than that when he was just 8th level! Sure she's got AC-10 and 70% magic resistance but like that's going to save her when your typical monty-haul party kicks down the door.

Well that's what you get for being the Goddess of the Dark Elfs. It's kind of like being the most popular goth in your high school. Or the best Dark Eldar player in your league. She should have gotten the hint when they literally put LOL in her name.



I just had to include this for the phrase "a giant kobold (5 ½ feet tall)". Gotta love a 'lesser god' who still can't reach the top shelf at the supermarket. No wonder he hates all life except Kobolds.



It was at this point someone noticed they'd gone almost 20 pages without bare breasts (I don't count the Drow priestess because that's only sideboob). So we get Blibdoolpoolp, goddess of the Kuo-Toa because what else would a bunch of fishmen worship but a naked chick with a lobster head. It's kind of like the two best parts of a seafood dinner date combined into one.




Orcs get Gruumsh One Eye, He-Who-Watches-And-Never-Sleeps. It is said that when the gods were dividing the world they drew lots. Elfs got the forests, Dwarfs got the mountains, Halflings got the hills, Dark Elfs got Hot Topic, Humans got anywhere they wanted (but not infravision) but when they got to the Orcs there was nothing left. The other gods laughed at Gruumsh and mocked him so he took his mighty spear and burnt the woods, he shattered the mountains, he blighted the mountains and said THERE! That is where my people will live.

Don't mess with Gruumsh.

GREAT commentary! Esp the part about the Kobold God. I liked the commentary for Blibdoolpoolp, too (I'd never have her in my campaign, either, just because I never put anything into one of my games that I can't pronounce).

Corellon gets pretty huge later - he is basically THE elf god, though in my campaigns, elves worship human gods, too (mostly Greek Gods/Goddesses in my world), but of course, that's all just personal taste.

The only sad thing here is that humans get HUNDREDS of gods, but if you're an elf, you get - you know - one.

In 2nd Edition they came out with a cool little book called Monster Mythology which helped shore up some of the shortcomings which, until then, DMs were forced to fix themselves (yes, I know in my last post I was complaining about having TOO many rules, etc, but yes, like the god of the elves, I have also been known to swing both ways).

WAAGGHH
Solorg

D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D

So with the Non-Human deities done you might think that NOW it's time for the Norse. And you'd be right!

Thanks to Marvel Comics and um… Marvel Comics (come on, are you really going to tell me you know about them from Wagner?) the Norse gods are some of the best known, probably second only to the Greeks.

With a more violent mythology filled with epic battles and fearsome monsters rather than the Greek's incest and infidelity and more incest the Norse gods are perfectly suited for your typical adolescent's RPG campaign.



Jeff Dee (I assume) returns to give the us some clear comic book-like art. Odin the All Father is of course just scary powerful. How powerful? Well the writer figured rather than list his powers he just listed what Odin can't do (raise the dead and healing people puts him in a coma for 1-10 days). Then the writer spends a full page on Odin's spear, Odin's wolves, Odin's ravens and Odin's horse.




This is Odin's horse Sleipner. Sleipner has more than 3 times the hit points of Lolth AND has a really cool Manowar song just about him.

Y'see kids, the lesson here is if you ever have the choice, you should try and have an army of fierce Vikings worshiping you rather than a bunch of elfs who sit in dark basements listening to NIN and cutting themselves. See I told you RPGs were educational.

Of course they can't all be winners…



Dirty hippy.



Some nice design by David LaForce here. Hel of course does 5 points of damage just by looking at you. Then 20 more if you come within 90 yards of her. Kind of like a restraining order.





He's just so happy. Even if Nife my 24th level Dwarf thief has a better pick pocket skill than him.



Thor the mighty!
Thor the brave!
Crush the infidels in your way!
The powerhead of the universe!
Now scream your never-ending curse!

OK, just because people will complain if I don't…
Mjolnir, Thor's +5 magic hammer has the following abilities:
• It does 10-100 points of damage
• It can be thrown up to 200 yards, and it never misses when thrown. It returns to Thor's hand automatically.
• It can cast lightning bolts at any target within sight, up to a total of 100 dice of lightning bolts a day which can be broken up however Thor desires. (But when wouldn't Thor want to do a 100d6 lightning bolt?)
• It is so heavy only beings with a strength of 25 can lift it (i.e. Heracles) and it requires MORE THAN 25 strength to wield it (Thor has 25 strength then a magic belt on top of that).
• When Thor throws Mjolnir it trails a lighting bolt and when it hits there is a clap of thunder which affects all beings as a power word stun.

So how did Loki feel after the god of thunder hit him? Mighty Thor.

Of course Thor has another nemesis, one destined to kill him…



Infinite hit points?! Infinite?! OK so he's the Midgard Serpent and circles the world but Azathoth is the center of the universe and the size of a small sun and has 400 hit points while snakey here gets INFINITE hit points?

True he has a vulnerable spot, his 300 hp head. Which regenerates completely every round. So you have to do 300 points of damage, to the head in one round or he just regenerates. And if you do… save vs poison or die from his venom.

Sorry Ma Yuan, I really thought you were all that but wow. Now that's a f'ing monster.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
And so we close in on the end winding down with the Sumarian Mythos.



Again Kudos to TSR for giving us three mid-east pantheons, two from East Asia and one from South Asia. If only all gaming companies were so inclusive in their fluff.

Honestly not much to say here. Now of course Deities and Demigods is not exactly a comparative religion textbook but it's interesting how every pantheon is led by some kind of sky god. Never a harvest god or a death god or even god of the sea, nope it's all sun and storm and sky. And usually a big strapping chap with a full beard. Interesting.

So Enlil, magic hat, magic axe, nothing wrong with him but somehow… he just ain't no Odin. I'm sorry.



Now Ki, that's one wild goddess, you can totally tell she isn't wearing a bra under her tiger-print halter top and I don't think she had undies beneath that skirt slit to her waist.

D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D&D

Now before we close the dusty pages of this ancient tome let's take a quick look at the universe it described.

D&D had an incredibly complex multiverse with both and astral and etherial ghostly planes, parallel universes, elemental planes and the no less than 17 different outer planes to house the afterlife.

And it was awesome.



The inner planes housed the universe as we know it, all the various game settings were there, the Spell Jammer books later clarified how they relate.
Around them were the 4 Elemental Planes and various demi-planes where they touched (i.e. water+earth=the Plane of Mud). Above and below were the Positive and Negative Planes, one drained you d6 hp a round, the other supercharged you d6 hp a round until you exploded.



The whole enchilada floated over the Outer Planes where the gods, demons and others lived.



These Outer Planes matched up to the 9 different alignments in the game. So the Seven Heavens were Lawful Good while the Twin Paradises were a bit less lawful and Arcadia was a bit less good. These were further detailed in the 1st edition Manual of the Planes and then turned into a whole setting with the 2nd edition Planescape books.

I hear they ditched it at some point, silly WoC, sure it's not the best magical multiverse ever (the Chronicles of Talislanta gets that honor) but it was a great one.
Oh well.

So the last question here is, is this worth buying?

Obviously I think so but keep in mind I got it for $20, I grew up with 1st edition and I've been hearing about this book for decades.

If you don't meet most or all of those criteria the more common Legends and Lore book or a more recent book will do just as well.

Besides this review I am really tempted to assemble some aging geeks and do an all out god battle. Everyone take a deity and go!

Y'know, I think I will try it.

My money's on Odin unless Cthulu gets to play.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Or the best Dark Eldar player in your league.

Hah, hah, yeah that's funny, those losers and...hey, *wait* a minute!

Nicely done Kid Kyoto, I see you are wasted in the diplomatic service. You need to do something worthwhile in your life like write for a magazine.

We would all buy wouldn't we guys.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I hear they ditched it at some point, silly WoC, sure it's not the best magical multiverse ever (the Chronicles of Talislanta gets that honor) but it was a great one.

You did get this bit thoroughly wrong though. Talislanta is not a patch on Glorantha neither is anything else.

Yeah... I'm going to hell. The Nine Hells.

Gonna have to disagree slightly on Jeebus.
I'm CERTAIN he was part illusionist.

: )

BEST.
REVIEW.
EVER.

Kudos, KK.

Eric

Kid_Kyoto wrote:


Y'know you would think star of one of the oldest myths ever written might have gotten past 12th level. But not TSR apparently. And he's only got a Mace +2, I mean come on. By the time he was 12th level Skullcrusher had a 2-handed sword +4 and a negative armor class. What a wuss.

Also he's apparently 1/3 god, 1/3 man and 1/3 monster. How does that even work?

So, true story: One of my high school religion teachers years back actually wrote the 10th- 12th grades religion book(published by the school itself). He's still teaching there today incidentally. Guy's older than Frazz, and freakin hilarious, to boot, I'll tell you later about the time he and a classmate of mine got into a fake yelling match while he was teaching some 8th graders about how they gave each other genital warts, but I digress.

The reason I bring this up? This VERY ENTRY was in the book during the chapters dealing with the Exile in Babylon. No one got it in my class but me. Someone even asked the teacher(different teacher and a priest) what a Mace +2 was.

In short, Dr. Spitz was AWESOME.

Interesting factoid about the Norse gods in Deities and Demigods...Norse clerics cannot cast healing spells.

Platuan4th wrote: Guy's older than Frazz

Solorg wrote:The only sad thing here is that humans get HUNDREDS of gods, but if you're an elf, you get - you know - one.

In 2nd Edition they came out with a cool little book called Monster Mythology which helped shore up some of the shortcomings which, until then, DMs were forced to fix themselves (yes, I know in my last post I was complaining about having TOO many rules, etc, but yes, like the god of the elves, I have also been known to swing both ways).

I think I preferred the Dragonlance system where the same gods were worshipped by all the races, but each race had it's own point of view... For example, the Minotaurs treated one of the lesser evil gods as their primary patron, and even kind of liked one of the good gods as I remember, and gave Takhisis (The main evil god of the setting) little more than lip service...

What is interesting is that the non-human gods described here did become part of the Forgotten Realms setting, at least. They're still kind of represented in 4th edition's default and intentionally vaguely defined "Points of Light" setting, I think.


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There was a book (3.0 compatible, I think) that tried to do 'serious' stats for the Christian mythos. I think it even hadf some 'variants' like Joe Smith for the Mormons.

It was not well received.

Several comments.

Regarding the appendix which details the Planes of Existence, this is PURE GOLD since it is the first time these were ever described in D&D (as far as I know). They were always mentioned in passing (for example, in the Monster Manual and in the Player's Guide under spell descriptions like that for Gate) but until this point, DMs had to pretty much fake it or (gasp) to to the library to look it up via Real World reference material (The Occult!!!)

Well, with Dieties and Demigods, this VERY IMPORTANT information was introduced for the first time. We don't get a better treatment of the material until Manual of the Planes was released, and though I am not sure exactly when it was released, I think it was several years later - another one of my all time FAVE books!

Some DMs never get into the various Planes of Existence let alone combat encounters with gods and goddesses, but for those who do, Dieties and Demigods is absolutely invaluable. Even in later versions of the game (which start to use more of the made-up gods) the original Dieties and Demigods is a treasure trove for any DM who wants to make use of real pantheons in his game.

Now here's my take on all of it. If you are a DM, and let's say you are making your own made-up gods and goddesses, yes, you can do that (or use the canned gods in D&D), but the players are going to be all like, "so what?" I mean, it is a name and the god is a total unknown to them unless you take lots of gametime describing them, establishing them, and so on.

But with realworld gods/goddesses, for the DM it is INSTANT RESPECT. If I say Bogo the God of Dance commands you to go on a quest, everyone's all like, "Who the $%&! is Bogo?" But if I say, "Zeus, the God of Olympus commands you to go on a quest, then everyone's all like, "Oh, @%$#, better do what he says or he's gonna blast us with lightning, and maybe even turn into a swan and, well, it would be BAD. I mean, you heard what happened to Leta!"

You get the point here. REAL historical gods are the best. Unless you plan to use all your DM time proving to players how cool your made-up gods are (and yes, you CAN do this) Dieties and Demigods gets you off to a running start. And no matter what edition you play, why WOULDN'T you want an outline of a god's abilities at your fingertips? Even if they are all 1st edition, DMs of later editions can still benefit from the outlines presented for each, and with minimal knowledge of earlier HP and AC systems, you can even convert over to the new edition with a little effort. (Or just do what I do - Gods and Goddesses are basically invulnerable anyway).

What an awesome play-by-play! And Jeebus Rice is awesome. I'm cutting him out and pasting him into my Dieties and Demigods book right now.


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Balance wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:
There was a book (3.0 compatible, I think) that tried to do 'serious' stats for the Christian mythos. I think it even hadf some 'variants' like Joe Smith for the Mormons.

It was not well received.

I'd be interested in knowing more about this book. If anyone knows the name of it. I'm sure it is one of those independent publisher books. That was the coolest thing about 3.0 - the open license deal. More than a DM could ever want or need, truly truly awesome.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Yeah... I'm going to hell. The Nine Hells.

I find that funny, Demigod is more or less correct, but as an integral part of something much more powerful. Please dont try to stat the rest up or you will cause offense. You will likely cause offense anyway but with a couple of modifications you can get away with that as they properly account for the core beliefs. The Blood into wine attack is somewhat off but keeps the entry firmly in the category of spoof.

Some corrections.

Alignment: Lawful Good
Worshippers Align: Any (trust me on that one)

This demigod is a firm believer in peace and will never physically attack a foe outside his own holy ground.
He can only be harmed if he allows it, and if slain will return with full hit points in d3 days regardless of the source of the attack.

I highly doubt Jesus was Lawful Good. Chaotic Good is a better fit imo.