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What about scout bikers? I've never seen anyone use them, and if you give the squad a locator beacon, use the scout move, slam in some drop pods w/ the DP assault special rule, and bam! your enemy has 20 marines/ 2 dreads/ whatever you want whooping his front line.

Hey, Vulkan is awesome

micahaphone wrote:What about scout bikers? I've never seen anyone use them, and if you give the squad a locator beacon, use the scout move, slam in some drop pods w/ the DP assault special rule, and bam! your enemy has 20 marines/ 2 dreads/ whatever you want whooping his front line.

Not to mention turn 1 vehicle charge with autohitting grenades or melta grenade if you buy it for the sgt. (assuming you go first, of course)

If you want to have fun, do a scout army (Bikers, LSSs, the whole bit) with Sicarius (reroll sieze) and Inquisitor with Tarot.

I have always thought that a scout company would be really fun to play.

The scout bikers sounds like tons of fun and something that may work.

Sanctjud wrote:But the issue some people have is that they trade that for less bodybags/durability.
So there is balance in that.

No they don't.

5 man dev squad w/4ml's is 150pts. 6 man LF squad w/5ml's is 140pts.

How do LF's have less 'durablity/body bags'? LF's have 1 'free wound' just as devs and still have one more ml.

If you add in one WG, the LF's are still only 8pts more AND have 2 'free wounds'.

If you add more 'durability' to dev squads, they cost even more for even less return.

OFC, you can add even more ML's to the LF squad, if you want, and stuff in a cyclone ML on WG, for the magical 7 ML squad.

Here, it would probably be the LSS. Nobody here sees the advantages of a late game Obj grabber that can assault 20" from either board edge.

@Imweasel:
I'm not talking about the same points cost.
I'm talking about the total number of members.
The deves have 10 while the LF have a max of 6 with respect to their own FoC's.

As for less return, that is relative. Taking a wound before the ML and having it operational for one more turn as opposed to being more economical and dying sooner...it all depends.

Deves and LF's are different but similar units, I think it's silly comparing them.
Deves are made essentially for a 5 man squad or a 10 man squad. 10 man to split into 2 combat squads if need be, while the 10 man squad is beefy enough to take the lumps their way.
LF have a suedo-combat squad with respect to splitting fire...but that's the devs for you, you pay more to be more flexible.

You must declare all shooting with LF, with Combat Squadded Devs, you get to see what happens with the first volley and then apply the second squad as you see fit, in addition to that you pay more for more durability.

Like I said, different but similar, Devs are more flexible when combat squad is an option and are more durable but cost more for that flexibility.
LF seem to me to be economical due to their lower body bags in which specialist are due to die earlier as they have no options for body bags.

Now, everyone has different opinions about whether or not bodybags are needed, but I'm just noting down the simple fact that the Deves have it as an option and the LF really don't.

Sanctjud wrote:@Imweasel:
I'm not talking about the same points cost.
I'm talking about the total number of members.
The deves have 10 while the LF have a max of 6 with respect to their own FoC's.

As for less return, that is relative. Taking a wound before the ML and having it operational for one more turn as opposed to being more economical and dying sooner...it all depends.

Deves and LF's are different but similar units, I think it's silly comparing them.
Deves are made essentially for a 5 man squad or a 10 man squad. 10 man to split into 2 combat squads if need be, while the 10 man squad is beefy enough to take the lumps their way.
LF have a suedo-combat squad with respect to splitting fire...but that's the devs for you, you pay more to be more flexible.

You must declare all shooting with LF, with Combat Squadded Devs, you get to see what happens with the first volley and then apply the second squad as you see fit, in addition to that you pay more for more durability.

Like I said, different but similar, Devs are more flexible when combat squad is an option and are more durable but cost more for that flexibility.
LF seem to me to be economical due to their lower body bags in which specialist are due to die earlier as they have no options for body bags.

Now, everyone has different opinions about whether or not bodybags are needed, but I'm just noting down the simple fact that the Deves have it as an option and the LF really don't.

40k has turned into MSU for competitive armies.

It is much more efficient and effective to take more units than to 'upgrade' them with 'bodybags'.

For 460pts, you get the privilege of taking 2 x 10 man dev squads w/4ml's that you can combat squad into 4 x 5 man dev squads w/2ml's each. That's a total of 8ml's.

For 420pts, I can take 3 x6 LF's squads w/5ml's each. I can't combat squad, but I can shoot at 6 targets as opposed to your 4, but you do have the advantage of seeing what's happening first before announcing more fire, so call it a wash.

I have almost DOUBLE the number of ml's, making my list more durable and redundant, with only 2 less 'bodybags'. For 40pts less.

The only disadvantage I have is it takes one more foc to do it, but I give up less kp's IF you combat squad.

Fang's win hands down. The point you are missing is that my 'bodybag' guys are not just there hanging out waiting to die. Mine are shooting str8 ap3 shots.

imweasel wrote:Fang's win hands down. The point you are missing is that my 'bodybag' guys are not just there hanging out waiting to die. Mine are shooting str8 ap3 shots.

I'm completely gunning for Fangs (I never run a list without at least one squad of 'em) but I have to point out that Devs can have the extra bodies to stack wounds on - with Fangs, you have to put wounds on a heavy weapon or the SL. With a 10-man Dev squad, you can have 4 heavy weapons, a sarge, and have 5 extra wounds to soak up shots, allowing the heavy weapons to keep shooting. With Fangs, if they get shot at, there is always a risk of losing someone you need; with Devs, you can potentially have five marines die over the course of the game and never lose a single heavy.

Locclo wrote:I'm completely gunning for Fangs (I never run a list without at least one squad of 'em) but I have to point out that Devs can have the extra bodies to stack wounds on - with Fangs, you have to put wounds on a heavy weapon or the SL. With a 10-man Dev squad, you can have 4 heavy weapons, a sarge, and have 5 extra wounds to soak up shots, allowing the heavy weapons to keep shooting. With Fangs, if they get shot at, there is always a risk of losing someone you need; with Devs, you can potentially have five marines die over the course of the game and never lose a single heavy.

You are not getting the point at all. I still have the bodies, for less points, it's one more foc slot, but my 'bodies' are shooting missiles.

Who cares if they die with a ml or a bolter?!?!?!?

Good Grief!

imweasel wrote:

Locclo wrote:I'm completely gunning for Fangs (I never run a list without at least one squad of 'em) but I have to point out that Devs can have the extra bodies to stack wounds on - with Fangs, you have to put wounds on a heavy weapon or the SL. With a 10-man Dev squad, you can have 4 heavy weapons, a sarge, and have 5 extra wounds to soak up shots, allowing the heavy weapons to keep shooting. With Fangs, if they get shot at, there is always a risk of losing someone you need; with Devs, you can potentially have five marines die over the course of the game and never lose a single heavy.

You are not getting the point at all. I still have the bodies, for less points, it's one more foc slot, but my 'bodies' are shooting missiles.

Who cares if they die with a ml or a bolter?!?!?!?

Good Grief!

Dude. Calm down. I'm not even arguing with you. I'm just saying that Devs can take the extra wounds and not lose heavy shots. Fangs can't. Although, do you really only run them with MLs? They're decent, but they're really only good for dealing with vehicles and hordes, not MEQs. The blast won't hit more than one or two marines (Of which it then has to wound and fail the save) and the krak can potentially only kill one, assuming they're not in cover - which in the realms of 5th Edition, is fairly uncommon.

Locclo wrote:Dude. Calm down. I'm not even arguing with you. I'm just saying that Devs can take the extra wounds and not lose heavy shots. Fangs can't. Although, do you really only run them with MLs? They're decent, but they're really only good for dealing with vehicles and hordes, not MEQs. The blast won't hit more than one or two marines (Of which it then has to wound and fail the save) and the krak can potentially only kill one, assuming they're not in cover - which in the realms of 5th Edition, is fairly uncommon.

The extra wound argument for devs doesn't hold water.

I have killed (or neutered) termie squads with 15 blast templates and GH bolter shots. I have other things for meq, like rifleman dreads and tcav. I can have problems with a lot of av13/14. AV 12 or less? I can get eat that up pretty quick. It usually comes down to who makes better cover saves or gets to alpha strike. My 2k list and 1850 wolf lists are pretty standard and cookie cutter, but they are damn effective. I just need more table time with them. I just don't play enough.

Occasionally, when I run Logan, one LF squad uses lc's.

I also think that ac/lc sponson preds are an adequate sub for LF's, or for marine use. That configuration is much better than a dev squad.

Well, now I want to see what things people would change in the SM codex.

I have a couple.
1. Make Vanguard cheaper: they are a fun unit to play in friendly games, but too expensive for competitive games.

2. Give LR's either a rule of option for dozer blades. I have had too many LR's roll 1's on dangerous terrain.

Scout Bikers.

Scout Bikers with a power fist are surprisingly effective and versatile.

What kind of success have you had with scout bikers?

First turn awesomeness and then die, or... just die.
At least, that's what happens if you are very aggressive with them.

I think their only failing is that they still take a Fast Attack Choice when I have a Captain on a bike, if they be a scoring unit, I'd be all over them, but as it is now, I don't have any FA slots left for scout bikers who...are IMO alot more desirable than Tactical Squads...

devs 3th are underrated in sm tfc is 2nd and vulkan is most underrated i mean who uses that bad rules and stuff/sarkasm

pdawg517 wrote:What kind of success have you had with scout bikers?

If you get turn one, infiltrate them and then scout into assault range, wreck vehicles. If not, outflank and wreck vehicles or attack backfield units/objective claimers. They tend to make their points back as long as you don't go over the top with upgrades. I've also had success using them with a combi-melta, melta bombs, and nothing else.

I'll have to give them a try sometime.

The TFC can be leathal, but around here it is the first thing people target. So much that the guys that ran them stopped running them. They would get one maybe 2 turns to unse them. Either the Cannon would explode or the Tech died.

People playing against them did not ignore them by any streach.

I would say that Attack Bikes are underrated. Many hate them, but in a squad with a 2 melta-type and 1 HB, they fething rock. All meltas = 36 inch vehicle if you go here you die, and hb = death to any infantry squad that is horde.

I run 12 Attack Bikes at 1500...yes 12...

Sanctjud wrote:I run 12 Attack Bikes at 1500...yes 12...

Uhoh, I have to ask some questions. How do you get to 12 AB's? 9 in the 3 FA slots and 3 as troops? And which configurations do you run?

I go with:

9 Bikers, 2 Meltas, Fist, Hvy Bolter Attack Bikes.
9 Bikers, 2 Meltas, Fist, Hvy Bolter Attack Bikes.
9 Bikers, 2 Flamers, Fist, Hvy Bolter Attack Bikes.
3 Multi-Melta Attack Bikes.
3 Multi-Melta Attack Bikes.
3 Hvy Bolter Attack Bikes.
And a biker captain with gear to top it all off.
1500.

So it's an even distribution of attack bike configs, just for fun

Sanctjud - I have tried all bike lists and end up getting screwed with my opponents putting objectives on higher levels of ruins - does that happen with you? how do you deal with it?

Play for the draw or shoot them to death... there really isn't much sadly, but it's only 1500 points.

It has happened to me only a handful of times and I do just that, I shoot them to death so the game ends in a Win or a Draw.

The only times I have lost is when I screw distances up and get 3/4 of my army locked in combat and then I'm wiped out by turn 4. That is every game I've lost...getting caught and getting wiped out...still fun if you can believe me.

But yes, for those that are risk averse with the whole (objectives on 3rd floor) then it's not something for you. But at 1850 and beyond I do get other elements in my list to 'deal' with this issue.

I generally send 9-10 assault terminators trudging there to clean up house. But only 1850+.

I think all the options have a place. It just takes application and actual prologed usage to get used to a unit regardless of perceived power level.

I (as I have before) will cast my vote for TFC, glass cannon it literally is.

Besides anything non-blue color scheme? Most underrated unit has to be the Redeemer. Pick anything without a melta, roll up and cook everything alive. For extra credit, add a nasty assault unit. Then you're cooking a unit or two and smashing another.

Using the machine spirit to fry a second unit is an amazing trick that I rarely see, but it can ruin a MEQ army's day.