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Kid_Kyoto wrote:

GW has dropped lots of things over the years, Genestealer cults, Sensei, Arbites are all OOP and have no rules, but they've never gone all Stalin on them and removed old references. It's amazing that a company which keeps around Space Hobbits and Rambo cannot bear to admit they ever had Space Dwarfs.

Probably because the Genestealer Cults, Sensei, and Arbites(which, mind you, can be recreated via the Witchhunters codex in the loosest terms) players don't piss and moan all the time nonstop about their perceived mistreatments.

Kanluwen wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

GW has dropped lots of things over the years, Genestealer cults, Sensei, Arbites are all OOP and have no rules, but they've never gone all Stalin on them and removed old references. It's amazing that a company which keeps around Space Hobbits and Rambo cannot bear to admit they ever had Space Dwarfs.

Probably because the Genestealer Cults, Sensei, and Arbites(which, mind you, can be recreated via the Witchhunters codex in the loosest terms) players don't piss and moan all the time nonstop about their perceived mistreatments.

*yawns*

Diplomatic as ever, Kanluwen.

I try, but it sometimes comes out as pure bile. I dislike the whole 'well it was there once, so why isn't it now?' vibe that I always end up hearing about from Squat players. We had one years ago who wouldn't shut up about how "Oh, they can make Lost and the Damned for the Eye of Terror campaign, but they won't let me use my squats?"

Putting it simply, or as diplomatically as I can:

I don't blame GW for trying to erase any/all traces of the Squats. Look at how Squat players act in regards to the addition of the Demiurg(which GW has even gone so far as to say are the 'remnants of the Squat civilization' as a wink/nod to the old days of the Squats) or the Lost and the Damned players. GW is trying to reintroduce the Squats or at least the archetype of a Dwarf in the Demiurg. But apparently, it's not good enough for the hardcore Squat players.

Solly wrote:I had thought it was their sales that determined their existence.

Apparently not. The Specialist Games post that I mentioned before said that they sold as well as any of the other RT armies.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Towards the end of 2nd edition Squats were already OOP and players were not allowed to use them in tornaments even though they were still legal.

That may have been a regional thing. I never heard of any such restriction specifically for Squats, although some tournies had banned the use of the 'Black Codex' lists, which would by extension remove Squats from being usable.

Some of the first 40k novels and short stories from the 90s had squats, when GW reprinted them in the early 2000s they actually edited them to cut out the squats! For example, Grimm the Squat engineer became Grill the techpriest. Later they reprinted a trilogy featuring Grimm and obviously didn't feel like using that much white-out so they just put a note on the front page that this book is all lies and there's no such thing as a squat.

The change does actually make a certain amount of sense, though. If the Squats are no longer a part of the setting, publishing a short story about them is going to confuse people.

And the Inquisition War trilogy doesn't say that there is no such thing as a Squat. It says that they were disgusting mutants who were eaten by the Tyranid Hive Fleets...

GW has dropped lots of things over the years, Genestealer cults, Sensei, Arbites are all OOP and have no rules, but they've never gone all Stalin on them and removed old references.

The difference I would think is that these other things (well, perhaps not the Sensei, but who really knows...) are still a part of the setting... just not an active part of the game of 40K.

The idea that Squats were dropped due to (supposedly) not being able to fit them into the setting makes their removal wherever possible make a lot more sense. There would be no point in removing all trace of Genestealer cults from the background material, because they still exist as a part of the Tyranid fluff.

Kanluwen wrote:

I don't blame GW for trying to erase any/all traces of the Squats. Look at how Squat players act in regards to the addition of the Demiurg(which GW has even gone so far as to say are the 'remnants of the Squat civilization' as a wink/nod to the old days of the Squats) or the Lost and the Damned players. GW is trying to reintroduce the Squats or at least the archetype of a Dwarf in the Demiurg. But apparently, it's not good enough for the hardcore Squat players.

Ok.. and just where are these "Demiurg" mentioned as a Playable army? Asking out of interest and not to be imagined as snide. I have the current base rules and would like any info that would allow even a suggestion of playing with the models I have.

As for the Banned from playing issue, I had run into that in a GW store. which is why I have a Marine arny as well.

helgrenze wrote:I have heard so many "Official" stories that I have lost count. The funniest being that all the base armies were meant to portray actual WW2 armies..... Guard was the Russians, Marines -the Brits, Eldar -the French, Orks - Nazis, Chaos- the Japanese, and Squats were the Americans.

And the Canadians' significant contribution was overlooked, and weren't made a part. Neither was Australia. colonies....

Nightwatch wrote:

helgrenze wrote:I have heard so many "Official" stories that I have lost count. The funniest being that all the base armies were meant to portray actual WW2 armies..... Guard was the Russians, Marines -the Brits, Eldar -the French, Orks - Nazis, Chaos- the Japanese, and Squats were the Americans.

And the Canadians' significant contribution was overlooked, and weren't made a part. Neither was Australia. colonies....

Only one of the reasons I found it funny.

helgrenze wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

I don't blame GW for trying to erase any/all traces of the Squats. Look at how Squat players act in regards to the addition of the Demiurg(which GW has even gone so far as to say are the 'remnants of the Squat civilization' as a wink/nod to the old days of the Squats) or the Lost and the Damned players. GW is trying to reintroduce the Squats or at least the archetype of a Dwarf in the Demiurg. But apparently, it's not good enough for the hardcore Squat players.

Ok.. and just where are these "Demiurg" mentioned as a Playable army? Asking out of interest and not to be imagined as snide. I have the current base rules and would like any info that would allow even a suggestion of playing with the models I have.

As for the Banned from playing issue, I had run into that in a GW store. which is why I have a Marine arny as well.

They've never been mentioned as playable, due to the nature of their contributions to the Tau Empire.

They contribute technology and materials, NOT troops.

insaniak wrote:

The change does actually make a certain amount of sense, though. If the Squats are no longer a part of the setting, publishing a short story about them is going to confuse people.

And the Inquisition War trilogy doesn't say that there is no such thing as a Squat. It says that they were disgusting mutants who were eaten by the Tyranid Hive Fleets...

The difference I would think is that these other things (well, perhaps not the Sensei, but who really knows...) are still a part of the setting... just not an active part of the game of 40K.

The idea that Squats were dropped due to (supposedly) not being able to fit them into the setting makes their removal wherever possible make a lot more sense. There would be no point in removing all trace of Genestealer cults from the background material, because they still exist as a part of the Tyranid fluff.

But there was no reason to spend all that energy (or any energy) removing them from the setting. GW has a lot of things that are no longer part of the game that still exist in the fluff. Squats were abhumans just like the Space Ogres, the Space Hobbits, the Space Beastmen and other fantasy transplants. If GW didn't want to support them, fine, but they spent a lot of time and energy denying they were ever part of the game and mocking their own fans who remembered them.

It looks like they've backed down from the extremes of the early 00s, they published Epic Squat rules and Abnett sneaked in a reference to the 'skwats' in one of the Ravenor books. A Squat tech priest even won a Golden Demon IIRC. So it looks like the axe is buried but it was funny for a while that the fine makers of Space Elf Clowns and Space Elf Bondage Freaks could not admit they had ever made Space Dwarf Bikers.


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Kanluwen wrote:

helgrenze wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

I don't blame GW for trying to erase any/all traces of the Squats. Look at how Squat players act in regards to the addition of the Demiurg(which GW has even gone so far as to say are the 'remnants of the Squat civilization' as a wink/nod to the old days of the Squats) or the Lost and the Damned players. GW is trying to reintroduce the Squats or at least the archetype of a Dwarf in the Demiurg. But apparently, it's not good enough for the hardcore Squat players.

Ok.. and just where are these "Demiurg" mentioned as a Playable army? Asking out of interest and not to be imagined as snide. I have the current base rules and would like any info that would allow even a suggestion of playing with the models I have.

As for the Banned from playing issue, I had run into that in a GW store. which is why I have a Marine arny as well.

They've never been mentioned as playable, due to the nature of their contributions to the Tau Empire.

They contribute technology and materials, NOT troops.

Demiurge are remnants of the Squats?
They're part of the Tau?
Where is this from?

Last I heard the Demiurge were their own faction, flying around in Space Factories, mining asteroids and we never saw what they looked like.

The point, from this Squat players perspective, is simple.

For whatever reason, Squats were the only race/army from the original 6 (Marines, Guard, Chaos, Eldar, Orks, and Squats.) to be fully removed from from the game. Squat players were then told by Jervis that they could continue to play them "AS IF" they were orks or guard effectively nerfing them on the stat line. This was followed by some places and even tourneys disallowing squat models from play. (I was actually told that my Squat models were not even GW figs at one point.)

Since that time, We Squat players have made what adaptions we could to keep playing using the models we spent time and money to buy, paint and modify. As other threads have proven there are ways to use existing army lists and force organization to make these armies playable. Recent games I have played even show an interest in the models themselves. And given time, I could probably adapt the current RAW to make an army profile for the squats.

Its not about us being "Whiney crybabies that need to just let it go already". Maybe it about others just needing to stop being so damn adamant about how the figs "dont exist".

Remember: Spacewolves and Dark Angels started out as Alternate 'Nilla marines until the White Dwarf Articles. They didnt even have models until late in 2nd ed.

Demiurge are not squats. They just look like squats with eyebrows like superhero The Thing.

They also have a typically dwarvish/squattish fluff.

If anyone wants to play a Squat army, both Hasslefree and Olley's Armies do Space Dwarf figures and you can use the IG or any codex you want I suppose.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Last I heard the Demiurge were their own faction, flying around in Space Factories, mining asteroids and we never saw what they looked like.

There was a concept sketch by Jes floating around in the dying days of the GW forums. Sort of a Dwarfish version of the Clown from Spawn, without the makeup.

From memory, the studio at the time said that they were a 'race of squat miners'... but were no actual relation to the Squats. Hints at the time were that they were a reptilian species rather than abhuman, but that may have been made up by fans rather than 'official' doctrine.

So if some on tried to make an army using converted dwarfs would there be a dakka lyinching?

orkylooter wrote:So if some on tried to make an army using converted dwarfs would there be a dakka lyinching?

No at all.. In fact Arbitor Ian did it recently.... detailed Here

It was very popular.

orkylooter wrote:So if some on tried to make an army using converted dwarfs would there be a dakka lyinching?

I doubt you would find any 40K forum that would have a problem with such an army. For that matter, other than the odd over-zealous staff member, I doubt you would find too many people at GW who would have a problem with it, either.

Really, the only issue that GW has with Squats is with being repeatedly asked when they're coming back.

Basically, one or two fanatics ruin it for the rest of the crowd, as is the case in many situations.

Dunno, on line I've seen more than one Space Elf and Space Orc player say Space Dwarfs are silly.

I would pick up space dwarfs if they came out with them again, dwarfs are freaking awesome, I would use a bigger F word there but hey it would be bleeped out, or squatted, well I know it will never happen but beer drinking dwarfs in space reminds me of Red dwarf and im always up for a larf.

starbomber109 wrote:Because the Inquisition will co~~~~
---TRANSMISSION JAMMED BY THE ORDER OF THE EMPEROR!---

This.