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KingCracker wrote:Well the last time I delt with Squat, a nice young lady wearing ALOT of latex was talking about doing that on my chest while I was tied down. I couldnt for the life of me remember my safe word though. It ended bad

Man, I know exactly how that feels. Turns out the word was 'weast.' How was I supposed to remember that?!

Lorgar's_Blessed wrote:Only one other race has been known to cause crazy fits of laughter or equally crazy fits of anger.

Dare I say it... I dare... Pan Fo.

Goodbye world.

I see your obscure reference and raise you some Zoats.

As lame as Squats may or may not have been in 40K, they were AWESOME in Epic!

The true reason why the -record deleted by the Inquisition- disappeared:

Locclo wrote:The true reason why the -record deleted by the Inquisition- disappeared:

QFT

They are called Rattlings, my child.

Ratlings aren't Squats.

Squats are Space Dwarves. Ratlings are Space Halflings, and pre-date the extermination of the Squat Homeworlds.

insaniak wrote:Ratlings aren't Squats.

Squats are Space Dwarves. Ratlings are Space Halflings, and pre-date the extermination of the Squat Homeworlds.

well they are as close as we are going to get for now. They are short and hairy seems to fit the Dwarves stereotype quite well

Squats were *Executed for heresy*

Another popular theory was that the "sculptors" were not "interested" in making new figures for the Squats.

To which I would have to say.... " I want Squat models in several poses and I want it by noon on Friday or You don't get paid."... (to paraphrase a famous comedy sketch)

As for just what they WERE...... they were between Guard and Marines for most stats with several interesting special rules.... such as taking Heavies as troops choices, with a preference for heavy bolters. the bike guilds and exo-armor (terminator) bikes with doomlance... a nasty bit of work that did massive explosive damage on a hit.

Lorgar's_Blessed wrote:Dare I say it... I dare... Pan Fo.

Only if they chose to revile themselves .

Pan Fo? Seriously, you! xD

Jon Touchdown wrote:

insaniak wrote:Ratlings aren't Squats.

Squats are Space Dwarves. Ratlings are Space Halflings, and pre-date the extermination of the Squat Homeworlds.

well they are as close as we are going to get for now. They are short and hairy seems to fit the Dwarves stereotype quite well

The shoeless, hairy feet are a bit off for Dwarves...

helgrenze wrote:Another popular theory was that the "sculptors" were not "interested" in making new figures for the Squats.

Which falls apart due to the fact that there were 2nd edition test figures made for Squats. Some of them were even pretty good. They just never made it to release, because the Squats never got a Codex.

The story from the studio was simply that the Squats were dumped because they couldn't figure out a way to represent them in the 40K setting that wasn't either filled better already by another army (The Space Wolves stole the futuristic Viking spot) or didn't leave them as slightly comical (stunted, beer-drinking, mutant biker miners)... and so the decision was made to simply drop them.

The whole 'secrecy' thing is purely an internet creation in the years since. GW has never tried to deny the former existence of Squats (rather tellingly, the Squat character was left in the reprinted Inquisition War books, despite the fact that he could have been very easily edited out if removing all trace of the Squats was their real aim...) beyond a few throwaway comments at GD's in response to repeated badgering from players.

insaniak wrote:

Jon Touchdown wrote:

insaniak wrote:Ratlings aren't Squats.

Squats are Space Dwarves. Ratlings are Space Halflings, and pre-date the extermination of the Squat Homeworlds.

well they are as close as we are going to get for now. They are short and hairy seems to fit the Dwarves stereotype quite well

The shoeless, hairy feet are a bit off for Dwarves...

helgrenze wrote:Another popular theory was that the "sculptors" were not "interested" in making new figures for the Squats.

Which falls apart due to the fact that there were 2nd edition test figures made for Squats. Some of them were even pretty good. They just never made it to release, because the Squats never got a Codex.

The story from the studio was simply that the Squats were dumped because they couldn't figure out a way to represent them in the 40K setting that wasn't either filled better already by another army (The Space Wolves stole the futuristic Viking spot) or didn't leave them as slightly comical (stunted, beer-drinking, mutant biker miners)... and so the decision was made to simply drop them.

The whole 'secrecy' thing is purely an internet creation in the years since. GW has never tried to deny the former existence of Squats (rather tellingly, the Squat character was left in the reprinted Inquisition War books, despite the fact that he could have been very easily edited out if removing all trace of the Squats was their real aim...) beyond a few throwaway comments at GD's in response to repeated badgering from players.

They are poor Dwarves

insaniak wrote:The story from the studio was simply that the Squats were dumped because they couldn't figure out a way to represent them in the 40K setting that wasn't either filled better already by another army (The Space Wolves stole the futuristic Viking spot) or didn't leave them as slightly comical (stunted, beer-drinking, mutant biker miners)... and so the decision was made to simply drop them.

Which I find extremely funny due to having beat the "Codex" Spacewolves (Played by several different players.) of the time with a basic black book Squat force on multiple occaisions. So, the idea of it being done 'better' didnt really wash with me. No current army has the same feel and structure that the Squats had.

helgrenze wrote:Which I find extremely funny due to having beat the "Codex" Spacewolves (Played by several different players.) of the time with a basic black book Squat force on multiple occaisions. So, the idea of it being done 'better' didnt really wash with me.

The point wasn't that they were more powerful rules-wise. It was that they couldn't go the 'Vikings in Space' option for them as Space Wolves had already filled that niche.

insaniak wrote:

helgrenze wrote:Which I find extremely funny due to having beat the "Codex" Spacewolves (Played by several different players.) of the time with a basic black book Squat force on multiple occaisions. So, the idea of it being done 'better' didnt really wash with me.

The point wasn't that they were more powerful rules-wise. It was that they couldn't go the 'Vikings in Space' option for them as Space Wolves had already filled that niche.

So basically, the role they were filling previously was usurped by what had been an alternate Space Marine army that was given head of the line Codex privleges in order to stall and defer the much rumored Squat codex which was never produced as the SW 'dex now filled the role that the Squats originally had.

Correct?

Not at all, but keep having a conspiracy theory about it.

Unfortunately, I currently lack access to my materials on the Squats. However, They were never portrayed as some kind of "space Viking" as the Wolves were. So the theory of their "role" being done better by another army falls flat.

Next?

Looking at the models and the 'general' background of Norse styled Clans and the general imagery of the models:
They were Space 'Vikings'(as really ANY kind of Dwarves in fantasy worlds are) and any denial of such is quite frankly ridiculous nonsense.

not really.... Squat organisation was based on Brotherhoods, the infantry units, and Guilds, Mechanized units including the bikers. Yeah the whole Rune thing and general bearded appearance could denote some viking influance, but as the fluff pointed out. "Your people do well in war because you see it as a religion. Our people do well in war because we see it as a business. Its all a matter of outlook."

And you're proving earlier statements about Squat players needing to just let it go, mate.

Actually I am just enjoying the discussion. The OP raised the questions concerning the Squats, Many that have not been sufficiently answered.

Now, if GW had made a WFB human based viking army would that have led to the elimination of the Dwarf army list? Probably not, as the armies would have a different "feel".

Since no-one actually involve with the decission to displace the Squats has ever positively commented on the actual whys and whatnot, we are only left with what theories can be imagined.

helgrenze wrote:So basically, the role they were filling previously was usurped by what had been an alternate Space Marine army that was given head of the line Codex privleges in order to stall and defer the much rumored Squat codex which was never produced as the SW 'dex now filled the role that the Squats originally had.

Correct?

No. They weren't Space Vikings originally. It was one of the routes that the studio considered for them to give them a character distinct from the Imperial Guard (and was played with a little in some of the 2nd edition concept models) but was discarded when the Space Wolves were developed in that niche instead.


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helgrenze wrote:Since no-one actually involve with the decission to displace the Squats has ever positively commented on the actual whys and whatnot, we are only left with what theories can be imagined.

Actually, they have. The story that I presented earlier was a summary of a post on the Specialist Games boards a few years back from one of the Games Devs...

I have heard so many "Official" stories that I have lost count. The funniest being that all the base armies were meant to portray actual WW2 armies..... Guard was the Russians, Marines -the Brits, Eldar -the French, Orks - Nazis, Chaos- the Japanese, and Squats were the Americans.

The problem with Space Dwarves was this.

What are dwarves typically known for?

Heavy impenetrable armor: Space Marines have that covered.

Powerful short ranged and Close combat weaponryL: again Space Marines.

Being slow: well since all other 40K races move 6" a turn it does not make sense for squats to be different.

Being nasty tempered and having a love affair with fermented beverages: Space wolves have this.

Being technologically adept: Mechanicus duh



So most of what Dwarves had has been taken by multiple races. whats left?

Being short: well this outta make GW bring them back, whats stopping us

The White Dwarf model: the only squat model still ocassionally produced(this year he was a techpriest)

thats all I can think of, if you think of any more say so.

I had thought it was their sales that determined their existence..
Tis all about sales..

If you want squats then get some fantasy dwarves, sculpt a couple of helmets and get some IG weapons, viola.. (",)

Another mini-selling company I think hasslefree or something else, sells squats,like the one's described here.
Short, caryying heavy weapons and futuristic, some even looked like really short judge dredd characters! heheheh

Part of the joke is the irrational extremes GW went to de-Squat the 40k universe.

Towards the end of 2nd edition Squats were already OOP and players were not allowed to use them in tornaments even though they were still legal.

Some of the first 40k novels and short stories from the 90s had squats, when GW reprinted them in the early 2000s they actually edited them to cut out the squats! For example, Grimm the Squat engineer became Grill the techpriest. Later they reprinted a trilogy featuring Grimm and obviously didn't feel like using that much white-out so they just put a note on the front page that this book is all lies and there's no such thing as a squat.

In 3rd edition one player created a gorgeous Chaos Squat army as a joke (the 1000 Squats, counted as 1000 Sons). Won an award. But in WD and on the web GW only showed his non-squat models (the daemons etc) none of the actual dwarf conversions.

GW has dropped lots of things over the years, Genestealer cults, Sensei, Arbites are all OOP and have no rules, but they've never gone all Stalin on them and removed old references. It's amazing that a company which keeps around Space Hobbits and Rambo cannot bear to admit they ever had Space Dwarfs.


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insaniak wrote:

The whole 'secrecy' thing is purely an internet creation in the years since. GW has never tried to deny the former existence of Squats (rather tellingly, the Squat character was left in the reprinted Inquisition War books, despite the fact that he could have been very easily edited out if removing all trace of the Squats was their real aim...) beyond a few throwaway comments at GD's in response to repeated badgering from players.

Gotta call you out on this one because they did reedit a story (Warped Stars by Ian Watson IIRC) to de-squat it. That goes beyond just dropping them as they did with zoats and others and into the realm of a purge.

that is indeed strange, they still keep ratlings around, don't they?
Maybe they thought the space dwarves would be an insult to the oh so perfect space marines?

and lets not go to Mr. Rambo, errr Marbo? Hehehehe

I heard that were victims of GW atemptt to remove elements of Warhammer Fanthasy Battle from 40k.*gets executed personally by Jervis Johnson*