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If you're relying on using small arms to kill FNP terminators then you're doing it wrong.

1. Some people don't have a choice.
2. It is the cost effective option pre-FNP termies.

It really depends how a person uses that 'expensive assault unit'. I know that there are plenty who are either just that good or are able to other things that help the whole army in general.

Given that FNP was originally a Khornate gift (3.0 and 3.5 dex), it actually makes sense that Bezerk^H^H^H^HBlood Angels get it.

It still doesn't make a whole lot of sense... it was only available to a handful of people in 3.0/3.5 dex....not the whole damn army.

The entire BA army doesn't get FNP. They buy Sanguinary Priests who provide it to units within 6". They'd have to put all their units close together or buy more than 3 priests to cover the entire army. 150 points for 398 square inches of FNP coverage on a 3456 sq in table doesn't strike me as overpowered.

They only need one model within the area to give it to the whole squad...

It covers much more ground than what you propose with that respect.

Unless the rules are that the whole unit has to be wholely within 6", but that is highly unlikely.

Sanctjud wrote:1. Some people don't have a choice.
2. It is the cost effective option pre-FNP termies.

If you come into a game without high St, high AP weapons and the other guy puts FNP terminators on the board then it's a match up issue, not an overpowered unit issue.

And even then, a single enemy unit that you don't have the guns to kill can still be outmanoeuvred or tarpitted.

It really depends how a person uses that 'expensive assault unit'. I know that there are plenty who are either just that good or are able to other things that help the whole army in general.

But if a guy is just that good, then well, he's just that good and is using his army well... wouldn't he win with other armies? Shouldn't he win if he's good?

phantommaster wrote:

JEB_Stuart wrote:Our local BA player set up two lists against the same Nid player and was stomped both times. I chalk that up to codex inexperience

Funny, my mate instantly made one list, played our local Tyranid player with a Mawloc, Swarmlord, 2x Carnifex and much more, yet he battered him, I suppose it was down to 3 Librarian Dreadnoughts mainly!

Mawloc=trash.

Nidzilla is no longer what it was in 4e, Monster Farming is where it's at!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ravenous D wrote:Its IC so it can only effect Primes in the nid dex basically.

And PoM

Feel No Pain Terminators? Don't we already have Demolisher Cannons?

Not to mention that anything that ignores armor (plasma cannons, i'm looking at you!) ignores feel no pain as well. Force 3++ saves wherever possible to drop the termies before they get to swing their hammers.

Here are some maxims of all gaming that lead to feelings like "NEW CODEX BROKEDZ GAME"

- Less people playtest an expansion than play the released version, usually on many order of magnitude more.
- System flaws are found over a period of time inversely proportional to the number of users, sometimes exponentially

40k, Magic, MMOs.. they all rarely see a new relase without some balance issue. It is the nature of the beast. Sometimes it is just that the players don't see the balancing factors because they are all focused on a playstyle that prevents its' being noticed.

@Sebster:
It's not just coming with said weapons.
Take Tau for example, they can bring the plasma rifles...but not cost effective in a spammable way. In addition, that low AP by passes the armor and FNP but runs straight up to the brick wall that is 3++.

Certainly making them roll lots of 3++ is a better way than going up against 2+/FNP but all I'm saying is that not everyone plays an army that has the option of fielding...say... demo cannons/plasma cannons which are traditional Anti-termy weapons.

As for tarpitting and keeping out of arms reach, it ends up being the game of: kill the Raider first. Which Tau can do well enough.
Or don't play gun line, where even slogging termies can get there.
It's nice that these FNP termies don't have fleet nor access to infiltrate and for tarpitting
Tarpitting really depends on the army facing them, one has to be careful they don't fail and hold them up past their own turn of combat.

__________________

As for the second part , I see what you did there.

I was not indicating player skill in my line there, I was talking about the quality of the 'Expensive Assault' unit in question.

Assault Termies are expensive assault squads, but their failing...at least with respect to the point I'm making is that it's all they can do.

Your suggestion of 'Expensive Assault' unit does sound like you are indicating other Expensive Assault units are rarely useful...

Then I point to Nob Bikers, Seer Councils, SM command Squads who are also Expensive Assault units, but add more to the list than just an assault element. At the very least they add shooting.

Else, they can take larger squads and still be quite fast, if transport is not their thing they don't have to rely on it. With larger/fast squads they are able do more combined charges, or conga line cover saves for those behind, a much larger area denial/counter charge.

Again, I wasn't talking about player skill and am sorry my line there horribly not clear.

tetrisphreak wrote:Not to mention that anything that ignores armor (plasma cannons, i'm looking at you!) ignores feel no pain as well. Force 3++ saves wherever possible to drop the termies before they get to swing their hammers.

FNP does not work agaist
-Instant Death
-AP1 Weapons
-AP2 Weapons
-Power Weapons
-Wounds that do not get Saves
-DCCW
-Rending

Might want to change that wounds that do not get saves to in close combat. Cause if your a scout that gets shot by a heavy flamer/heavy bolter you still get fnp without an armor save.

Sanctjud wrote:@Sebster:
It's not just coming with said weapons.
Take Tau for example, they can bring the plasma rifles...but not cost effective in a spammable way. In addition, that low AP by passes the armor and FNP but runs straight up to the brick wall that is 3++.

Sure, Tau have issues with heavy troops in general. Just a solid block of marines is a real challenge to dent, Plague Marines and Terminators are even worse, so FNP Terminators would be a real uphill battle. I guess you'd just hope that you have enough guns to kill his vehicles and a few troop units, while trying to keep the mega-points assault unit to wiping a couple of small troops units.

Certainly making them roll lots of 3++ is a better way than going up against 2+/FNP but all I'm saying is that not everyone plays an army that has the option of fielding...say... demo cannons/plasma cannons which are traditional Anti-termy weapons.

I agree, but I think its okay when a unit is really good against certain armies. Otherwise it'd be a dull game for sure.

Tarpitting really depends on the army facing them, one has to be careful they don't fail and hold them up past their own turn of combat.

I'll withdraw the tarpitting defence, as with combat resolution as it is now tarpitting is fairly useless. A high model count unit, low quality unit is either hammered on combat resolution and flees, or is fearless and hammered on the extra armour saves. I've only used my orks in fifth and forgot my old Tyranid tarpitting ways don't work in fifth ed.

As for the second part , I see what you did there.

My mistake, I get your meaning now.

I was not indicating player skill in my line there, I was talking about the quality of the 'Expensive Assault' unit in question.

Assault Termies are expensive assault squads, but their failing...at least with respect to the point I'm making is that it's all they can do.

Your suggestion of 'Expensive Assault' unit does sound like you are indicating other Expensive Assault units are rarely useful...

They're not necessarily bad, and they certainly have their place in the right armies, but they're also not the be-all and end-all of a game. Once a single unit starts taking up a large portion of the points then other things are being neglected - he probably won't have the guns to silence my shooting units, or he won't have the troops to hold points, or he won't have any other assault units to rely on if I put the hurt on his main unit. I tend to struggle more against a wide range of assault threats - I'd be more worried about a whole pile of assault marines - they could mash my ork boyz up.

But I'll admit I haven't read the BA codex yet so I might be mistaken, a lot depends on the cost of the Termies and their Sanguinary Priest.

90 points for one with Power Weapon and Jump pack IIRC
Not bad if you get 3 squads under the effect IMO.