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Scouts acting as scouts? That's just crzy talk. I like the idea of a pathfinder transport other than the devilfish, which makes no sense anyway as it's not very scout-like.

FlingitNow wrote:In terms of making MLs more available I'd make "normal" ML 18" assault weapons, bump the pathfinder units size up to 12" and allow them to fire MLs out of their transport (I'd invent a new transport for this that comes with infiltrate and stealth field generator). This would allow you to use them in FW squads more and make pathfidners actually scouts.

Then I'd make the drones 15-20 points each with Networked ML which stay heavy 36" range.

I'd move sniper teams to troops and allow you to switch the sniper dornes for ML drones.

How about that for making MLs work very differently? Making pathfinders actually scouts and allowing more MLs into the team.

You mean, incorporate the Forge World stuff into the Codex? That covers about 50% of what you just said.

You mean, incorporate the Forge World stuff into the Codex? That covers about 50% of what you just said.

I don't have any forgeworld rules which ones are covered?

He means Tetra Scout Speeders, Heavy Gun Drones, and Remote Sensor towers, I would take? All in IA3: The Taros Campaign.

He means Tetra Scout Speeders, Heavy Gun Drones, and Remote Sensor towers, I would take? All in IA3: The Taros Campaign.

None of those relate to any of my suggestions though.

FlingitNow wrote:

He means Tetra Scout Speeders, Heavy Gun Drones, and Remote Sensor towers, I would take? All in IA3: The Taros Campaign.

None of those relate to any of my suggestions though.

Tetras do. Remote Sensor Towers do. Remoras do.
Heavy Gun Drones....not so much, but they relate to other's postings about Heavy Weapon drones.

Heavy Gun Drones can take a Markerlight and Burst Cannon.

Tetras do. Remote Sensor Towers do. Remoras do.

How?

Heavy Gun Drones can take a Markerlight and Burst Cannon.

What has that got to do with sniper drones being troops?

The problem is that heavy gun drones are a heavy support option and are only adding yet more S5/AP5 to your list with their TL Burst cannons. They do have the option of replacing one BC with a markerlight but for 25 pts, I'd rather have pathfinders for that.

I think drone squads (those not incorporated into units) should be a separate FOC slot; something like, "0-3 Drone squads from the following:" and have a list of available drone types.

That way, you could field a more diverse army and it would make drones what they actually are, pure support and put the sniper drones in a category that makes more sense because I don't really see them as heavy support OR troops.

Agnosto,

That is a pretty good diea. However the reason behind them being troops is that all Tau units are supposed to be specialist with the auxillaries actually making up the formal line. Hence sniper drones to me make sense being in troops along with Fire warriors, certainly more so than Heavy support and this gets round the problem of getting MLs into the list, whilst my other option would radically change how you use pathfinders to be more infitting with the fluff of them being scouts rather than the current where they are the last line of defence...

I am left wondering if this will be a bigger deal when fighting some armies than others. I don't think marines will suffer too badly, but orks and gaunts really can't afford to suffer a whole other round of rapid fire and still come out with an even chance.

what? 3-4 ork boyz on the charge is way more than enough to wipe out an entire squad of firewarriors ... lol

4 Orks on the charge - 4 shots = 1.33 hits = .88 wounds = .44 dead FWs.

16 attacks = 10.66 hits = 7.11 wounds = 3.55 dead FWs. So 4 dead in total. If the FWs RF instead of attacking they've just lost combat by at least 3 so are likely running and certainly outmatched...

FlingitNow wrote:

Tetras do. Remote Sensor Towers do. Remoras do.

How?

Heavy Gun Drones can take a Markerlight and Burst Cannon.

What has that got to do with sniper drones being troops?

Read the Taros Campaign book. (hate to be snobby, but it's the same as asking about what's in a Codex really.) You can probably get a PDF version with 5 minutes of searching, but look at those units I have mentioned. (Note: I didn't mention H. Gun Drones.) Those units fufill what you are requesting the Tau to have.

Read the Taros Campaign book. (hate to be snobby, but it's the same as asking about what's in a Codex really.) You can probably get a PDF version with 5 minutes of searching, but look at those units I have mentioned. (Note: I didn't mention H. Gun Drones.) Those units fufill what you are requesting the Tau to have.

I think you've misunderstood what I'm requesting the Tau to have. I don't see how the Tetra has anything to do with my suggestions it doesn't carry 8 pathfinders it doesn't make MLs assault and it does nothing to turn pathfinders into scouts (except for the 2 piloting it). Nothing else you've mentioned seems to relate to sniper teams and making them worth while, so again I fail to see what they do that relates to my suggestions. I'm not asking for you to print the rules just a brief overall idea of what they do and how that relates to my points is all.

FlingitNow wrote:Agnosto,

That is a pretty good diea. However the reason behind them being troops is that all Tau units are supposed to be specialist with the auxillaries actually making up the formal line. Hence sniper drones to me make sense being in troops along with Fire warriors, certainly more so than Heavy support and this gets round the problem of getting MLs into the list, whilst my other option would radically change how you use pathfinders to be more infitting with the fluff of them being scouts rather than the current where they are the last line of defence...

Well, the sniper drones need a firewarrior spotter so they could still fit as a troop choice or even a FW unit upgrade option.

I would be loath to see them as troops as now you could only take 9 units of them (but no one would because they wouldn't have any anti-tank) but if they were a troop, they would be unlimited. Not a big problem and they really don't belong as heavy support unless they were more powerful.

A pathfinder transport would be cool, think larger piranha or tetra with more seating capacity...maybe a cross between a DE raider and a piranha.
AV 10 all around and open topped with chin-mounted burst cannon and drones with regular piranha upgrades and an optional turret, behind the pilot that could house a long-barreled burst cannon for an additional 20 points.

A pathfinder transport would be cool, think larger piranha or tetra with more seating capacity...maybe a cross between a DE raider and a piranha.
AV 10 all around and open topped with chin-mounted burst cannon and drones with regular piranha upgrades and an optional turret, behind the pilot that could house a long-barreled burst cannon for an additional 20 points.

Nah I want it fully close like a lythe Devilfish. So it is a sealed environment suited for rapid reddeployment and use from mantras etc along with usual tau doctrine.

As to spamming sniper drones the non-scoring rule would largely nueture that option. Otherwise yeah you could not take any pathfinders plow all your troops points into sniper teams with ML drones and then spam Crisis, broadsides and Hammerheads like no tomorrow...

FlingitNow wrote:

Nah I want it fully close like a lythe Devilfish. So it is a sealed environment suited for rapid reddeployment and use from mantras etc along with usual tau doctrine.

As to spamming sniper drones the non-scoring rule would largely nueture that option. Otherwise yeah you could not take any pathfinders plow all your troops points into sniper teams with ML drones and then spam Crisis, broadsides and Hammerheads like no tomorrow...

Which never made sense to me anyway since the manta's an enclosed environment. It's a scout vessel and the piranha and tetra are already similar vehicles that are open-topped. There's no need for a scout vehicle to be a tank IMHO. I like open-topped option as it would be easy for pathfinders to embark/disembark and have a smaller profile than a large, definitely non-sneaky devilfish.

It's a scout vessel and the piranha and tetra are already similar vehicles that are open-topped.

This is my issuie I want it to be different to the Tetra and Piranha. Hence why I think it should be more like a devilfish, but smaller for orbital deployment and advanced scouting. It should be more of a transport, plus as the piranha is 11,10,10 it wouldn't make sense for it to be 10 all round even with your design type it shouldn;t be lighter weight than the Piranaha.

Though either way I'm glad we're on the same page regards to Pathfnders being scouts and having a transport that helps them acheive this...

In the fluff, the Tau are very cat-and-mouse. What if they had the ability (maybe twice per game? to represent planned fall-back positions?) to move a unit in the assault phase d3" away from the first enemy assaulter (potentially making them fail the assault). This would make assaulting them not a sure thing, and retain both the shooting nature and the planning/maneuvering fluff of the Tau.

Maybe this would be too much... but it'd be nice if the Tau could retain their "I would rather use my gun" feel.

Just a thought.

My other thought would be to have them automatically ignore the first intervening unit's effect of granting the enemy a cover save. This would let you put the wall of Kroots in front of you and shoot over them without them granting the save to the enemy.

(both these would really only be Firewarrior/pathfinder abilities)

In the fluff, the Tau are very cat-and-mouse. What if they had the ability (maybe twice per game? to represent planned fall-back positions?) to move a unit in the assault phase d3" away from the first enemy assaulter (potentially making them fail the assault). This would make assaulting them not a sure thing, and retain both the shooting nature and the planning/maneuvering fluff of the Tau.

Maybe this would be too much... but it'd be nice if the Tau could retain their "I would rather use my gun" feel.

I had 2 ideas that fit this fluff but I did it differently one was a fix for ethereaqls and Aun Va.

For the greater good - If you have an ethereal in the squad when the squad is assaulted a member of the team can stand an fight on his own whilst the rest of the squad auto falls back in the face of the enemy. This squad member is removed once assault moves have finished the enemy can not consolidate.

Where as Aun Va would have:

Beacon of the greater good All Tau units with line of sight to Aun Va make use the greater good ability as if they had an etheral attached.

This acheives what you wanted but requires ethereals and makes them useful. This way the gunline would again become semi-viable and the Ethereals would actually be the best way to build that type of army.

The 2nd idea was to give each commander held in reserve the reserve Cadre special rule. Which means you can assign any Tau units to his cadre in reserve. When rolling for the reserves you make 1 dice roll for the entire cadre and it always comes on at the same time (though it needn't all come on at the same place or even using the same method).

This is definitely overpowered against an army such as orks who will most likely have already been hammered before they got to the Tau and do not need another round of firing against them to get another few harmless old boyz with their incredible 6+ save. Also a FW is only ten points making it the value of two ork boyz due to their firepower so letting them shoot into close combat would rob orks of their main advantage, leading a vicious assualt and bangin a few 'eads together! Thanks for the correction

Also a FW is only twelve points making it the value of two ork boyz due to their firepower so letting them shoot into close combat would rob orks of their main advantage, leading a vicious assualt and bangin a few 'eads together!

FWs are actually 10 points and at that price they are massively over costed (compare them to an 11 point sister of battle for instance). But yeah I see you point it could be OP against Orks depends on what you're taking lets try 12 FWs against 20 shoota boyz all vanilla:

FWs rapidfire Orks respond with shots then charge in prompting another round of RF:

12 Fws = 24 shots, 12 hits 8 dead Orks (ouch).

12 Orks = 24 shots, 8 hits, 5.33 wounds, 3 dead FWs:

9 Fws = 18 shots, 9 hits, 6 dead orks

6 Orks = 18 attacks, 12 hits, 8 wounds, 4 dead FWs.

Now the FW have to take a break test at LD1 and it is 5 vs 6 in following rounds. Orks still win when charging across the open into the guns of the Fws.

FlingitNow wrote:
The 2nd idea was to give each commander held in reserve the reserve Cadre special rule. Which means you can assign any Tau units to his cadre in reserve. When rolling for the reserves you make 1 dice roll for the entire cadre and it always comes on at the same time (though it needn't all come on at the same place or even using the same method).

This I like a lot actually, it lets you feel like you set up an ambush. It needs some sort of restrictions on the size/comp of a cadre I think (maybe 0-1 Elite, 1-3 Troops, 0-2 Fast). I'd probably also say that all the models have to come on the board within 24" of the Commander... representing him leading them in the strike.

Maybe they could come into the board anywhere you were initially allowed to deploy... giving a partial outflank at the cost of not always having a full table edge (quarters)? Maybe too much though.

But I like the idea of half your army waiting just off the board, ready to pounce. (it is weird that it feels like the opposite of what I suggested earlier, but still retains the same feel to me.)

This I like a lot actually, it lets you feel like you set up an ambush. It needs some sort of restrictions on the size/comp of a cadre I think (maybe 0-1 Elite, 1-3 Troops, 0-2 Fast). I'd probably also say that all the models have to come on the board within 24" of the Commander... representing him leading them in the strike.

Maybe they could come into the board anywhere you were initially allowed to deploy... giving a partial outflank at the cost of not always having a full table edge (quarters)? Maybe too much though.

But I like the idea of half your army waiting just off the board, ready to pounce. (it is weird that it feels like the opposite of what I suggested earlier, but still retains the same feel to me.)

Yeah it is the bait + trap idea. The reason you can put as many units as you want in the cadre is that it is a risk as much as a benefit. Imagine having 75% of your force not turn up until turn 5!

I think the within 24" thing would be too restrictive due to the types of unit you could bring in. Idea is you'd through hammerheads on the front. Stealth teams on the side and deepstrike Crisis teams behind to the full patient hunter effect. You;d have to price jack the positional relay (I also though you;d had a locator beacon type effect where you scatter d6" less when DSing within 6" of the relay so you main comander calls in the reserve cadre for a precise strike).

The idea is that Ethereals become a good HQ choice for defensive lines. They help hold the line Ld wise and give you a response to fast assaulters and first turn assaulters.

Whilst the Commanders really help you build a highly mobile ambush type army that baits the opponents with auxillaries before delivering the killer blow with a precision planned insertion.

I agree the 24" is too restrictive if given no restrictions on composition.

I rather like the idea of them getting a partial outflank by coming in along any part of your deployment zones edge.

It might also work in an Apocalypse game giving perhaps ten squads the ability as a strategic asset to help counter its effectiveness in a normal game otherwise all ma boyz wouldnt get any action

what I'd really like to see with the tau is more electronic warfare options, say something like the apocalypse disruptor beacon to take care of deep strikers (say on a 4+ the scatter result is tripled on a hit use the small arrow and don't triple and on a 6 the unit is delayed)

the option to add a marker beacon to any vehicle for 10 points and include that option for free on pathfinder devilfish.

give pathfinders a new transport (armor 11,11,10 fast skimmer open topped capacity 6 marker beacon and NO option for landing gear call it the mako
make vespids always get their assault move might make them worth taking. they don't need to become close combat troops but they need something to make them slightly more survivable vs being assaulted.

make all drones worth no kill points and make them fearless but also unable to contest objectives.

on the other side I think broadsides are undercosted (or maybe it's the hammerheads NON-twinlinked railgun is overcosted?)