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After a match with a SW player, we discussed the ups and downs of our armies, of a few things we liked, we derailed our conversation by watching the WHFB guys finish their match. Having never played WHFB before, I saw something incredible. When the group of lizard solders charged the archers in assault the archers fired at them as they ran in!!! I then suggested to my SW friend to give this to the Tau as an army special rule for "Tau" units only. He paused for a moment, and agreed. We played a match with this, and it worked out fine. My FW shot his marines when they assaulted, killed a few, then died. They still suck at close combat, but at least have a chance of doing something. If anyone knows the name of the rule from FB, and/or has thoughts on Tau getting this rule, let me know.

I like the idea. Doesn't sound broken, doesn't look as though it would act broken, and sounds like you enjoyed it. Would still hope the restrictions like Heavy applied... but enjoyable.

StarHunter25 wrote:After a match with a SW player, we discussed the ups and downs of our armies, of a few things we liked, we derailed our conversation by watching the WHFB guys finish their match. Having never played WHFB before, I saw something incredible. When the group of lizard solders charged the archers in assault the archers fired at them as they ran in!!! I then suggested to my SW friend to give this to the Tau as an army special rule for "Tau" units only. He paused for a moment, and agreed. We played a match with this, and it worked out fine. My FW shot his marines when they assaulted, killed a few, then died. They still suck at close combat, but at least have a chance of doing something. If anyone knows the name of the rule from FB, and/or has thoughts on Tau getting this rule, let me know.

In WHFB you have a range of responses to being charged, you can hold your ground, stand and shoot, or run away. It works pretty well at representing blocks and lines of troops you see in WHFB. 40K is meant to be a more mobile battlefield so its presumed troops are already firing at every target they can spot - that's why rapid fire weapons already get to double tap inside 12". In 40K melee isn't considered purely hand to hand like it is in WHFB, it also represents shooting up close and personal.

That isn't to say the idea wouldn't work, in fact I actually quite like it, just that you'd be representing something that's represented quite differently in other parts of the game. That is, right now you can say IG don't get to stand and shoot at a unit charging them because their rapid firing in their own turn represents them firing as much as possible, but if Tau were allowed to shoot at a unit charging them that doesn't really work anymore. However, the design principles of 40K are pretty much a mess of contradications at this point anyway, so maybe that isn't such an issue.

I am left wondering if this will be a bigger deal when fighting some armies than others. I don't think marines will suffer too badly, but orks and gaunts really can't afford to suffer a whole other round of rapid fire and still come out with an even chance.

Addendum: If they "stand and shoot", they dont get to bonk people with their pulse rifles, and have it be 1 shot, not rapid fire.

I'm liking this ammendum even more now.
(Plays Orks. Loved the fluff of it though)

Why not allow them to use their ranged weapons in lieu of their melee in CC? Still run it initiative based.

Ex: 5 Marines charge 5 fire warriors. Marines go first and kill 2. Fire warriors strike with the remaining 3 and use their BS to hit and pulse rifle as S. Rapid fire would allow 2 shots.

It gets even better for things like stealthsuits. They wouldn't be godly since their initiative is pretty poor, but it makes them pack a much larger punch.

Why not allow them to use their ranged weapons in lieu of their melee in CC? Still run it initiative based.

Ex: 5 Marines charge 5 fire warriors. Marines go first and kill 2. Fire warriors strike with the remaining 3 and use their BS to hit and pulse rifle as S. Rapid fire would allow 2 shots.

It gets even better for things like stealthsuits. They wouldn't be godly since their initiative is pretty poor, but it makes them pack a much larger punch.

Maybe allow blasts and flame templates to affect everyone in base contact. No autohit, but your number of attacks would be based on how many models you are touching.

EDIT: Double post fail for stupid work PC...

this is shas'o vera and i aprove this method

Obviously, you'd follow the same rules for assaulting: rapid fire can't assault if you fired, same with heavy. But you could allow them to move, do nothing on shooting, and assault with the ranged weapons as previously stated and get full rapid fire. Near suicide but hey, you could have the rapid fire and the +1 attack for the charge

Oh... and if you get assaulted by a huge horde of orcs or nids while in cover, you can rest assured a lot will die before they get to you... and they pretty much should under the same situation.

According to you:
5 Assault Marines assault a squad of 10 Fire Warriors:

Assault Marines:
5 base attacks + 5 for charging + 5 for 2 CCW (assuming you went with Bolt Pistol and Chainsword.)
15 WS4 S4 attacks at I4

(*roughly*) 4 dead Tau.

6 Fire Warriors RF ---> 12 S5 attacks
(*roughly*) 1-2 dead Marines

[Add in cover: the system gets broken.]

Seems vastly, vastly overpowered. I'm taking for granted that Heavy weapons wouldn't be usable in close combat, but even so.
By allowing Fire Warriors to use their guns in melee, they lose their main drawback: mediocre strength and crappy WS. Now you have models that cost 12 points that always hit on 4's and strike at S5 in melee.
The shootiness of Fire Warriors is balanced by their lack of melee ability. This system would break that completely.

The reason charge reactions work in WHFB, is that it's an epic battle in the vein LotR: rank upon rank of soldiers charging across largely open battlefields at each other. In this situation, it makes sense for the charged unit to see the other unit and have time (only in SOME cases) to fire on them.
In 40k, assaults are much smaller scale, faster, more vicious things. The way the game works also makes the charges quicker. For example, if my assault marines jump over a wall and assault your Fire Warriors, you should get to shoot at them. The FW's first indication of the marines would be the roaring jets above them, and rifles are worthless in melee.

If you're going to allow them to shoot point blank, they should lose that ability due to frag grenades. It's hard to shoot at charging enemies if you have to duck to avoid exploding death.

IMO assault is fine. The Tau need a new codex, not this overpowered stopgap measure.

I would check out GW Astronomicon. They have been adding new missions to the "Battle Missions" Codex as downloads. They have a mission called "Close Quarters Fighting" and the Shooting phase is reversed. It's quite interesting. Maybe you could utilize this in your games.

Mad Rabbit wrote:IMO assault is fine. The Tau need a new codex, not this overpowered stopgap measure.

But what is GW for other than overpowered stopgap measures? First BA, now Tau?

I've heard this idea & play tested it many many times. My conclusion is that it does not work & is overpowered. Mainly because shooting in WHFB is MUCH weaker than in 40k.
Personally I don't think tau need to be better in assault. They suck & they should. With an extra 6" shooting range they get in an extra round of shooting anyway (against infantry). Plus the basic gun is strength 5 which helps with wounding to compensate for BS3 (No I'm not saying we need BS4, I think that idea is crap).
Tau shouldn't get into assaults, use your devilfish to run away, use kroot to charge the enemy before they charge you. Tactics need to be used to avoid CC, not crutches to help you when you fail to avoid it.

Che-Vito wrote:According to you:
5 Assault Marines assault a squad of 10 Fire Warriors:

Assault Marines:
5 base attacks + 5 for charging + 5 for 2 CCW (assuming you went with Bolt Pistol and Chainsword.)
15 WS4 S4 attacks at I4

(*roughly*) 4 dead Tau.

6 Fire Warriors RF ---> 12 S5 attacks
(*roughly*) 1-2 dead Marines

[Add in cover: the system gets broken.]

I don't see how that's broken at all. Marines attack with half as many people. Assault marines aren't even uber assault units, just slightly better than the average tac marine in assault. With half as many models, they kill twice as many as they lost. They still come out on top, force a leadership test, and killed more points than they lost.

With the focus on everything being faster now, Tau are getting assaulted on turn 2... this is why they get dominated a lot. They have no effective countermeasure against numbers or fast attackers. They rely on speed to stay at range. Deny their speed and they get overrun with nothing they can do.

Tau are getting assaulted on turn 2

Who are you playing against? Why are they waiting until turn 2 to assault you? Against anyone sensible you are getting assaulted the turn they arrive or deploy, either by turn 1 assaults or by massed outflank (unless you can afford to avoid 42" width of the board).

You can't avoid assault in a game whre you opponent can assault you on the first turn before you can do anything. Tau need ways of dealing with assault, either extra tactics to avoid/flee from assault (my preferred solution) or getting to do more damage when they do shoot (again somethgIthink can be helped with) or get better at assault (awful solution would completely ruin the whole point of the army).

Hoodwink wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:According to you:
5 Assault Marines assault a squad of 10 Fire Warriors:

Assault Marines:
5 base attacks + 5 for charging + 5 for 2 CCW (assuming you went with Bolt Pistol and Chainsword.)
15 WS4 S4 attacks at I4

(*roughly*) 4 dead Tau.

6 Fire Warriors RF ---> 12 S5 attacks
(*roughly*) 1-2 dead Marines

[Add in cover: the system gets broken.]

I don't see how that's broken at all. Marines attack with half as many people. Assault marines aren't even uber assault units, just slightly better than the average tac marine in assault. With half as many models, they kill twice as many as they lost. They still come out on top, force a leadership test, and killed more points than they lost.

With the focus on everything being faster now, Tau are getting assaulted on turn 2... this is why they get dominated a lot. They have no effective countermeasure against numbers or fast attackers. They rely on speed to stay at range. Deny their speed and they get overrun with nothing they can do.

If the Tau have Photon Grenades, the Assault Marines and Fire Warriors take comparable casualties.

5 Assault Marines attack a squad of 10 Fire Warriors

5 base attacks + 5 attacks for dual-ccw
10 attacks
*roughly* 3 dead Fire Warriors

14 S5 attacks
*roughly 2.5 dead Marines

Fire Warriors fighting on a near-equal level with Assault Marines? Goodbye fluff! Now try that same math against a unit of Ork Boyz, and it gets realllly sketchy.

Have the stand and fire response work the same as fantasy -1 to hit done before the attack (but not effecting combat resolution). Redo the maths:

5 assault marines - 100 points

assaulting 10 FWs - 100 points:

20 shots 6.6 hits 4.4 wounds 1 dead marine.

4 guys left 13 attacks 3 dead FWs, Ld test at Ld 4 going to get wiped out still. As to this point:

Fire Warriors fighting on a near-equal level with Assault Marines? Goodbye fluff!

As to this point it should be 5 assault marines nailing 50Orks in CC but that is not how it works...

As to your "maths":

14 shots = 7 hits = 4.66 wounds = 1.55 dead marines, so even in your example the marines are out killing the Tau 2 to 1 and in both cases we've ignored the 5 bolter shots that come in before the assault, which should kill another FW...

FlingitNow wrote:

As to this point it should be 5 assault marines nailing 50Orks in CC but that is not how it works...

As to your "maths":

14 shots = 7 hits = 4.66 wounds = 1.55 dead marines, so even in your example the marines are out killing the Tau 2 to 1 and in both cases we've ignored the 5 bolter shots that come in before the assault, which should kill another FW...

There was a reason I said "roughly" (I did that all in my head in about 10 seconds...)

As to "fluff marines", it depends on what fluff you're looking at. I was looking at the simple fluff that Fire Warriors lose in close combat, period.

1.5 is not roughly 3! That's quite a big difference. Tau would still lose full stop in CC but it would give them a chance to do some damage giving them more of a chance in the following shooting phase of stopping the assault. It's not going to stop an assault or make a huge difference (1 dead marine or 3 dead Orks) but again helps Tau. I think something like this or an option to flee from assault would be a fluffy boon to the Tau something we desperately need.

Che-Vito wrote:

As to "fluff marines", it depends on what fluff you're looking at. I was looking at the simple fluff that Fire Warriors lose in close combat, period.

Not sure I agree with you. Fluff is such that Tau are seen to be adaptable and change tactics whenever there is need; I don't believe any race would be so stupid as to let their distaste of close combat allow them to be destroyed on the battlefield by armies that excel at it.

Tau Commander: Well troops it looks like we're instantly destroyed by all these fast armies that assault us in close combat at the beginning of every battle...
Kroot Advisor: You could always train units in close combat drills and make them better..
Tau Commander: No! Out of the question, we Tau abhor close combat so we'll just have to die to the man.
Kroot Advisor: I'd prefer you pay me now before the battle starts.

Even if the Tau themselves, for whatever reason anyone wants to claim, suck at close combat; you would think they would be able to observe the battlefield and devise some way of either preventing close combat or overcoming their shortcomings.

Wouldn't it make more sense if the Tau had the opportunity to save their shooting from the shooting phase, and then be allowed to use it in the enemy's assault phase?

That means no stats changed, and it doesn't mix with the principles of games workshops idea of how the rules should be... plus it would end the cries from various tau commanders, that want a way to tackle assaults, without actually overpowering any of the Tau units.

Frankly i have to agree with the people who say this is vastly overpowered. It sounds like you have a system that protects you from being assaulted when you as a player should be trying to do that.
As for the arguement that Tau suck in CC so they should get it, why not give this rule to Necrons too? Or better yet make armies who can't shoot well an ability to assault move when they're shot at... /sarcasm
Frankly your over complicating something that is your own fault, if you don't like how your fire warriors get owned in assault, protect them.

Frankly i have to agree with the people who say this is vastly overpowered.

Why is one dead space marine on eth charge really OP?

It sounds like you have a system that protects you from being assaulted when you as a player should be trying to do that.

Firstly it does not protect you from being assaulted, 2nd in a game where your opponentcan assault you in turn 1 how exactly do you avoid assault? The idea is to either help Tau avoid assault (hence my fallback option) or at least do some damage when assaulted (though the result will remain the same) to help with dealing with eth assaulters in following turns.

FlingitNow wrote:

Frankly i have to agree with the people who say this is vastly overpowered.

Why is one dead space marine on eth charge really OP?

It sounds like you have a system that protects you from being assaulted when you as a player should be trying to do that.

Firstly it does not protect you from being assaulted, 2nd in a game where your opponentcan assault you in turn 1 how exactly do you avoid assault? The idea is to either help Tau avoid assault (hence my fallback option) or at least do some damage when assaulted (though the result will remain the same) to help with dealing with eth assaulters in following turns.

FlingItNow...to summarize why this is a waste of time.

Stay.Out.Of.Assault.
-speedbump units
-transports
-if needed, more mobility in next Tau Codex

-end thread-

Why do Tau have to suck at close combat? Fluff? GW has proven time and again that it has no problem changing fluff when it wants.

As for avoiding CC, to be blunt, you can't. Every Tau tank has rear armor 10 and with no dedicated transports for troops, you can't start the game loaded; that means if you don't go first and you're facing most of the armies in 5th edition, you're being assaulted before you can load up. Besides, all an opponent has to do is target your devilfish on the first turn to make that option unviable.

On top of that, Mech tau sucks vs. IG for one, scout moving vendettas with drop melta squads means you're losing all your transports before you get to move them if you're unlucky enough to not go first.

I really don't get why people are so averse to Tau being decent in close combat...

agnosto wrote:Why do Tau have to suck at close combat? Fluff? GW has proven time and again that it has no problem changing fluff when it wants....

I like my Tau having poor close combat skills. Sure, I may not win every...or even most games. I don't mind, it just means that I need to keep refining my art, and await the new Codex.

agnosto wrote:As for avoiding CC, to be blunt, you can't. Every Tau tank has rear armor 10 and with no dedicated transports for troops, you can't start the game loaded; that means if you don't go first and you're facing most of the armies in 5th edition, you're being assaulted before you can load up. Besides, all an opponent has to do is target your devilfish on the first turn to make that option unviable....

Devilfish can be taken as Dedicated Transports for Fire Warrior squads. As to your argument against transports...it holds true for any Mech army.

agnosto wrote:On top of that, Mech tau sucks vs. IG for one, scout moving vendettas with drop melta squads means you're losing all your transports before you get to move them if you're unlucky enough to not go first....

I agree, fixes are needed...but this suggestion is not one of them.

agnosto wrote:I really don't get why people are so averse to Tau being decent in close combat...

As said before, I like them sucking at it. If they were made WS4 BS4 S4 W4 A4 I4 4++, they might be a lot better...but I'd stop playing Tau.

agnosto wrote:
I really don't get why people are so averse to Tau being decent in close combat...

Mostly because your making the BEST shooting army able to hold its own in combat.

Every army has its own checks and balances. Tau having an extra turn to shoot, along with the biggest guns (for standard infantry) in the game, makes them the Wood Elves of Warhammer: They are going to make your army look like a bunch of porcupines, but if you blow on them they fall over.

I could see if GW put it as a peice of equipment you had to buy per squad, but as a rule for the entire Tau army? Can't wait to assault them Fusion Gun using stealthsuits....

Slarg232 wrote:

agnosto wrote:
I really don't get why people are so averse to Tau being decent in close combat...

Mostly because your making the BEST shooting army able to hold its own in combat.

Every army has its own checks and balances. Tau having an extra turn to shoot, along with the biggest guns (for standard infantry) in the game, makes them the Wood Elves of Warhammer: They are going to make your army look like a bunch of porcupines, but if you blow on them they fall over.

I could see if GW put it as a peice of equipment you had to buy per squad, but as a rule for the entire Tau army? Can't wait to assault them Fusion Gun using stealthsuits....

The thing is, they no longer have the distinction of being the "best" shooting army but I guess that depends on your definition of what best is. I would think that the best shooters in the game would be able to....well, shoot and either be a) accurate or b) effective; right now, Tau are neither. I've seen IG time and time again produce more wounds from sheer volume of fire than the much vaunted biggest infantry guns in the game. As for your reference to wood elves....don't they have stand and shoot?

I guess that's neither here nor there.

agnosto wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:

agnosto wrote:
I really don't get why people are so averse to Tau being decent in close combat...

Mostly because your making the BEST shooting army able to hold its own in combat.

Every army has its own checks and balances. Tau having an extra turn to shoot, along with the biggest guns (for standard infantry) in the game, makes them the Wood Elves of Warhammer: They are going to make your army look like a bunch of porcupines, but if you blow on them they fall over.

I could see if GW put it as a peice of equipment you had to buy per squad, but as a rule for the entire Tau army? Can't wait to assault them Fusion Gun using stealthsuits....

The thing is, they no longer have the distinction of being the "best" shooting army but I guess that depends on your definition of what best is. I would think that the best shooters in the game would be able to....well, shoot and either be a) accurate or b) effective; right now, Tau are neither. I've seen IG time and time again produce more wounds from sheer volume of fire than the much vaunted biggest infantry guns in the game. As for your reference to wood elves....don't they have stand and shoot?

I guess that's neither here nor there.

Pathfinders with Markerlights. There, you just made your guys better shots, but you also reduced cover, caused pinning (?), and a metric buttload of other stuff (don't have my book right now)

As for wood elves, yes, they do have S&S, however, no one really uses it with them, because the odds of causing enough wounds and making the enemy unit panic is slim-to-none-existant, and no matter what unit is coming at you (with the exception of skinks), they are going to get slaughtered because they A) have no armor, B) have no weapon options, C) get no ranks, and D) have a toughness of 3. So even with the Shootiest WHFB army, it is still better to stay away from combat and actually manouver (sorry about SP) than set yourself up with S&S