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and thats why they get librarian dreads, assault squad troops, deep striking LAND raiders, Baal preds and so on. It has to balance out somehow, y'know? The army itself is ridiculous... is there anything SM can do that they can't do? but oh... "waaah waah our special characters aren't as easy-win."

I would trade Marneus and Shrike option for assault squad troops and deep striking LR any time.


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so the special characters are comparatively weak. Maybe that was on purpose because the rest of the list is so ridiculously strong. Think how the Tau must feel when comparing their hero characters...

I WAS afraid of him, until I rememebered that i'm imperial guard, and he still has thousands of guardsmen to sift through before I start paying attention.

Fl@nked wrote:I WAS afraid of him, until I rememebered that i'm imperial guard, and he still has thousands of guardsmen to sift through before I start paying attention.

I'll start paying attention when you have thousands of Guardsmen on the table.

The special characters aren't actually that weak.

Tycho sucks as the death company version because he's not an IC. Seth is very dull, but "only" 160 points. Astorath doesn't add much to the army if you've already got a bajillion face-raping death company running about.

But I wouldn't say they're worse/less efficient than Tigurius, Khan, Njal, or Canis.

Mephiston is a support character who can conveniently also do bad, bad things in close combat.

Sanguinor is as expensive as a Calgar/Grimnar but is a HUGE force multiplier when paired with multiple dreadnoughts or Death Company.

Dante can unlock a decent CC as a troop and open up more Elite slots while also being a respectable combatant, and the no-scatter can be useful.

Mephiston >>>> Tigurius in almost every way.

I think given the last few post praising the GOOD qualities of whichever character, it seems many other people like him just fine (hell he hits so hard if you can play him right and get into good position, but yeah he's vulnerable if you let that happen for him to be shot up) I just really don't see the problem. As an Eldar player I understand the necessity of precise use of precise unit for precise purpose. Maybe it is something former SM players who just jumped on the new shiney codex BA need to figure out. He is not at all bad... in fact, I can't think of anyone else who gets 10 S10 attacks...

Maybe its a learning curve thing. My guess is that BA players recently stopped using the (far superior) SM codex as a proxy instead of the crap WD version that was downloadable, poorly thought out, and weak. Now you have your own REAL codex, learn how to use it before declaring that your character is weak. He could beat Eldrads ass in a second, at approx the same points... heck he could beat down a squad of termies if he gets the charge and the powers... it seems like the whining is about his lack of invul, making you have to position and think differently than the standard marine stomp-up-the-middle-with-command-squad-nobody-can-hurt approach enjoyed by smurfs everywhere. Why is that so difficult? The guy kicks ass. You just have to learn how to use it. Trust me, I get frustrated by my Phoenix Lords and their comparative vulnerability, but then I look at the good things I have going for me, and it's all okay.

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:

Fl@nked wrote:I WAS afraid of him, until I rememebered that i'm imperial guard, and he still has thousands of guardsmen to sift through before I start paying attention.

I'll start paying attention when you have thousands of Guardsmen on the table.

Then you should start. Chenkov has as many men as he needs with SITNW.

Gornall wrote:Mephiston >>>> Tigurius in almost every way.

True, except for:

Joining a unit
Giving a bonus to reserves
Having access to more than four psychic powers (including his Force Weapon)
Leveraging the rest of the army via psychic powers
Not being a freakin' vampire

sourclams wrote:
Astorath doesn't add much to the army if you've already got a bajillion face-raping death company running about.

Oh, I don't know. Anything that takes Death Company and makes them better seems like it would be worth the points. That trick he does with Invulnerable saves is pretty sweet as well.

Astorath doesn't actually make DC better, he simply unlocks more [units] of them. If all you intend to field is a single big squad, then a basic champlain, Reclusiarch, or Lemartes all provide the same offensive boost without costing 220 points.

His abilities are actually counter intuitive, since if you take Astorath, then presumably you want a bunch of Death Company, but if you have a bunch of Death Company, you can't really afford enough units to make much use of his 'Shadow of the Primarch' SR.

But hey, we're going to split every hair and argue over every point.

Guitardian wrote:in fact, I can't think of anyone else who gets 10 S10 attacks....

I can't think of anyone that gets 10 S10 attacks period. Certainly not Mephiston, who has 5 attacks after the bonus CCW.

Terminus wrote:

Guitardian wrote:in fact, I can't think of anyone else who gets 10 S10 attacks....

I can't think of anyone that gets 10 S10 attacks period. Certainly not Mephiston, who has 5 attacks after the bonus CCW.

Well, in theory, he could add another one from The Sanguinor, one for a Charge, and 3 from his Psychic Reserve, so there's your A10 at S10 no?

'Course that's crazy expensive and not really "Mephiston" per se, but rather Mephiston, The Sanguinor, and some good rolls...

Valete,

JohnS

Just to balance things out a little. Iʻve had a great time playing with him, he attracts a lot of attention and absorbs a lot of fire, and kills everything, including LRs, in close combat.

Running him at the same time as the DC in Jump Packs, my opponent has to choose which horribly destructive nightmare to shoot at and which horribly destructive nightmare will reach their lines...

Heʻs awesome!!!!

Granted I haven't played with/against him, but I would not discount non-DC Tycho as Rites of Battle is a great ability.

cygnnus wrote:

Terminus wrote:

Guitardian wrote:in fact, I can't think of anyone else who gets 10 S10 attacks....

I can't think of anyone that gets 10 S10 attacks period. Certainly not Mephiston, who has 5 attacks after the bonus CCW.

Well, in theory, he could add another one from The Sanguinor, one for a Charge, and 3 from his Psychic Reserve, so there's your A10 at S10 no?

'Course that's crazy expensive and not really "Mephiston" per se, but rather Mephiston, The Sanguinor, and some good rolls...

Valete,

JohnS

What is Psychic Reserve? He has Unleash Rage, which lets him re-roll missed attacks. So even with all that fancy crap, you're still capping out at 7.

Not psychic reserve as in a power, psychic reserve as in Mepheston's reserve of psychic powers/attacks.

Fl@nked wrote:Not psychic reserve as in a power, psychic reserve as in Mepheston's reserve of psychic powers/attacks.

Just so. But I didn't have my Dex handy and I forgot that he couldn't get Might of Heros... Mea Maxima Culpa.

Valete,

JohnS

willydstyle wrote:Granted I haven't played with/against him, but I would not discount non-DC Tycho as Rites of Battle is a great ability.

I haven't yet either, but theoretically speaking Rites of Battle for Tycho is going to have many of the same problems as Rites of Battle does for a Dark Angels' Captain: Fearless redundancy. The Dark Angel problem is slightly different though: either you build for Fearless and Rites of Battle is redundant, or you build for non-Fearless and waste most of the advantages of the list. Blood Angels, however, have their Fearless randomized thanks to the Red Thirst.

Nurglitch wrote:

Gornall wrote:Mephiston >>>> Tigurius in almost every way.

True, except for:

Joining a unit
Giving a bonus to reserves
Having access to more than four psychic powers (including his Force Weapon)
Leveraging the rest of the army via psychic powers
Not being a freakin' vampire

2 Wounds and no invulnerable... Try to cast three powers a turn and boom... half of his wounds are gone like that. Heaven help him if he has to go against Nids or Eldar. As expensive as Tiggy is, only having 2 wounds and no invulnerable (or even artificer) is real "fail"... Mephiston has nothing on that kind of fail.

Saying fail is also "fail"

The cool thing about mephiston is the model looks as cool as a punch to the nuts feels. So anyone playing against him has incentive to get it off the table right away.

The other important thing about blood angels is that grey hunters are still better then assault marines point for point. Team jacob>>>>team edward

Never really liked the whole "fail" thing either. Can't we just say "booo" like a crowd at a football game. It sounds less nerdy/condescending.

But I digress... While we are on topic of how horridly bad the blood angel heros are for players who want an insta-win why does anyone EVER take Tycho?? That guy has sucked ever since 2nd ed. "Angels Of Death". He has never been an impressive character, kind of like he's always playing second fiddle. Interesting, yes, relatively cheap for a hero, yes, but useful... umm... He's up there with Sicarus for the SM... or the difference between Logan versus Ragnar for the SW (although Ragnar still kind of rocks for a second fiddle commander). Tycho may as well be just another captain IMO. I think his character was based on the very first blood angels commmander figure that came out during rogue trader/2nd ed. era, and they just can't let him go for nostalgia purposes, they even updated the figure in the same pose as the origional generic commander (I have the old one, nyah nyah! ). What a waste of codex space though. That dude is gimp IMO. Mephiston is a MONSTER and people just need to learn how to keep him safe from being blown to bits by massed heavy weapons (which is a strategy in and of itself, since that's less heavy weapons shooting at your by-far-superior troops and tanks and stuff)

Team jacob>>>>team edward.

Oh dear Nurgle...

"Fail" isn't cool according to some. Whatever. Twilight references are? I get the gimmick of going somewhere and then pretending you don't want to be there to make you seem awesome, but I've never seen it done more unecessarily.

I don't think there's any moral high ground on either side of this.

That last post was very abstract... I don't think analyzing the potential usefulness of a game piece really involves moral high or low ground anyways. SO here's the moral high ground: quit bitching at each other... here's the low ground: bitch at each other...

neither of these helps solve the question of 'is Mephiston worth it?' In my opinion he is, because he is a cc monster if you can manage to keep him screened to get close enough. It just takes an adjustment of the standard SMurf play style of hauling a massive command squad around like they own the place. Not being a squad member and not having an invul are his drawbacks but they can be overcome by creative use of your other stuff (rhino wall for instance? just a thought).

Just for gaks and giggles what happens if you put him in his own personal Land Raider? Would that make anybody afraid?

He can fly, and he can hide completely behind a rhino; he doesn't need it.

It would give him a longer threat range, but I don't think he needs it.

Seems too expensive to be really worth it, but it does seem very powerful.

Mephiston isn't Fearless, correct? You could have some fun with a PBS and the Assasin with the LD Template Gun.

Thats an interesting, but highly circumstantial idea. I find it hard to believe a character like mephiston does not have the fearless special rule though. The idea of him getting pinned because an eldar pathfinder plinked a bat nipple off his armor is just silly.