Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

۞ Jack ۞ wrote:Even then, im not sure a 2+ inv save and 7 S10 attacks would do the job.

Let me put your mind at ease, fair brother.

Ghazhkull would whipsmack Mephiston's cheeks.

If Non-Waagh Ghazkull gets charged by Meph, he gets absolutely murdered.

If Waagh Ghazkull charges Meph, not only does Ghaz win by a wide margin, but the BA player is dumb for letting a S&P Terminator get anywhere near him.

This is the part that I can't get over. Yes, there are many scenarios where Meph dies a flaming death. The bulk of those scenarios, however, rely on massive incompetence on behalf of the BA player.

sourclams wrote:If Non-Waagh Ghazkull gets charged by Meph, he gets absolutely murdered.

Ghazkull can invoke the Waagh in the opponent's turn.

meph with a squad of IC in a storm raven took out a defiler, two rhinos, and two nurgle squads.... he's not the end all unit you guys can just go "whoopie look what I did, I killed a big baddie" No if the player has any brains he'll target prioritize, make sure he's got meph matched up with points and given FNP and then with his superior initiative attacks, strength, and insta kill he can put a dent into anything your smart enough to match it with. IG weren't the end all OP army, space wolves weren't the end all OP army, tyranids weren't the end all OP army, and BA are not either so people don't need to be celebrating every single victory over every piece of overpriced model in a non-overpowered army

Monster Rain wrote:

sourclams wrote:If Non-Waagh Ghazkull gets charged by Meph, he gets absolutely murdered.

Ghazkull can invoke the Waagh in the opponent's turn.

And? A BA player would be absolutely nuts to charge a Ghaz with a WAAAGH! remaining.

So yes, if the BA player is dumb, he can easily get Meph killed.

sourclams wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

sourclams wrote:If Non-Waagh Ghazkull gets charged by Meph, he gets absolutely murdered.

Ghazkull can invoke the Waagh in the opponent's turn.

And? A BA player would be absolutely nuts to charge a Ghaz with a WAAAGH! remaining.

So yes, if the BA player is dumb, he can easily get Meph killed.

And a good Ork player is smart with his WAAGH!

What's the point of this line of conversation? Yeah, good players make better use of their units than bad ones. Not exactly shocking anyone here, are we?

I think I'd be more interested to see how many rounds Mephiston can go with Chaos Space Marine characters, particularly Abbadon. I think I'm going to crunch some numbers for it...

Nurglitch wrote:I think I'd be more interested to see how many rounds Mephiston can go with Chaos Space Marine characters, particularly Abbadon. I think I'm going to crunch some numbers for it...

I'm guessing that he'll paste all of them but Abaddon. The Despoiler, if he doesn't slit his own throat, will leave him face down in China Town.

Monster Rain wrote:

sourclams wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

sourclams wrote:If Non-Waagh Ghazkull gets charged by Meph, he gets absolutely murdered.

Ghazkull can invoke the Waagh in the opponent's turn.

And? A BA player would be absolutely nuts to charge a Ghaz with a WAAAGH! remaining.

So yes, if the BA player is dumb, he can easily get Meph killed.

And a good Ork player is smart with his WAAGH!

What's the point of this line of conversation? Yeah, good players make better use of their units than bad ones. Not exactly shocking anyone here, are we?

Since the title of this thread is 'Mephiston Fail', followed by numerous posts on how terribad Meph really is, it goes back to the whole 'if the BA player is dumb, Meph will die, but if he's not dumb Meph will have a lot more longevity' line of reasoning. A Ghazgkull Green Tide can't really afford to just sit on its Waagh! as insurance against Mephiston flying in to gank Ghaz. Similarly most other armies are only going to have a few of the weapons/units Meph is truly scared of like mass resilient power fists or plasma/melta fire, and being forced to position to take him out is a disadvantage all of its own.

Meph, on the other hand, is quite cheap compared to the units that he actually has to worry about, and a jack-of-all-trades CC unit that can make his presence felt no matter what he hits. He is, no matter how you slice it, a great HQ choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Monster Rain wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:I think I'd be more interested to see how many rounds Mephiston can go with Chaos Space Marine characters, particularly Abbadon. I think I'm going to crunch some numbers for it...

I'm guessing that he'll paste all of them but Abaddon. The Despoiler, if he doesn't slit his own throat, will leave him face down in China Town.

If Meph charges Abby with preferred enemy/S10, he'll kill Abaddon at the top of the second assault with 1-2 wounds remaining if Abby rolls 5 or lower on his Daemon Weapon.

If Abby charges Meph with PE/S10, Abbadon will die at the top of the second assault if he rolls 4 or lower on his Daemon Weapon.

If Meph has no special powers up and charges Abby, Meph will die at the bottom of 2 and Abby should have 1-2 wounds left if he rolls more than 1 on his Daemon Weapon.

And if Meph with no powers gets charged, he could die at the bottom of 1 and Abby should have 3 wounds left if he rolls a 5+ for Daemon Weapon.

Abaddon actually has to roll unusually well for his Daemon Weapon to take out a naked Meph in 1-2 turns.

And if Meph has two powers up, he's going to "leave him face down in China Town" unless Abby rolls a 5+ for Daemon Weapon in the first round of assault if Abby is charging, and only a 6 will save him from horrible death if he gets charged.

People are way too hung up on Mephiston not having an invuln save. 5 wounds is a huge wound pool to have to chop through for any special character.

sourclams wrote:

If Waagh Ghazkull charges Meph, not only does Ghaz win by a wide margin, but the BA player is dumb for letting a S&P Terminator get anywhere near him.

Please recall that on the Waagh!, Ghazghkull in a BW (which is the only way anyone ever takes him) has a charge radius of 23-28" (12" move, 2" disembark, 2" base, 6" Waagh! Run, 1-6" charge)

That's a really big circle to keep Meph away from, particularly since the whole Ork army is probably within it. So don't discount the possibility of Ghaz getting the charge as "the BA player is dumb". For one turn, at least, Ghaz actually has a longer reach (on average) than Mephiston does.

So, let's start with some reasonable assumptions. Mephiston has Ld10, and so passes his psychic tests 0.91 of the time, and suffers the Perils of the Warp 0.06 of the time. The Chaos Space Marine special characters are also uniformly Ld10, so they suffer from Mephiston's Transfixing Gaze 0.42, and escape it 0.58.

Against Abbadon, charging
[6 attacks][0.91, Sanguine Sword][0.91, Unleash Rage][0.42 Transfixion][0.75 to hit with re-roll][0.92 to wound with re-roll][0.50 to fail saves]
[0.83 Daemon Weapon, 6+ attacks][0.50 to hit][0.92 to wound with re-roll]

Against Kharn, charging
[6 attacks][0.91, Sanguine Sword][0.91, Unleash Rage][0.42 Transfixion][0.75 to hit with re-roll][0.92 to wound with re-roll][0.67 to fail saves][Instant Death]
[6 attacks][0.83 to hit][0.33 to wound]

Against Ahriman, charging
[6 attacks][0.91, Sanguine Sword][0.91, Unleash Rage][0.42 Transfixion][0.83 to hit with re-roll][0.92 to wound with re-roll][0.50 to fail saves][Instant Death]
[4 attacks][0.91 Warptime][0.67 defeats Psychic Hood][0.75 to hit with re-roll][0.25 to wound with re-roll]

Against Fabius Bile
[6 attacks][0.91, Sanguine Sword][0.91, Unleash Rage][0.42 Transfixion][0.83 to hit with re-roll][0.92 to wound with re-roll][Instant Death]
[5 attacks][0.50 to hit][0.33 to wound][0.17 to fail saves][Instant Death]

Against Lucius the Eternal
[5 attacks][0.91, Sanguine Sword][0.91, Unleash Rage][0.42 Transfixion][0.75 to hit with re-roll][0.92 to wound with re-roll][0.67 to fail saves][Instant Death]
[0.33 any wounds become automatic hits if Lucius saves][0.17 to wound]
[4 attacks][0.50 to hit][0.17 to wound]

Against Typhus
[6 attacks][0.91, Sanguine Sword][0.91, Unleash Rage][0.42 Transfixion][0.83 to hit with re-roll][0.92 to wound with re-roll][0.67 to fail saves][Instant Death]
[0.83 Daemon Weapon, 5+ attacks][0.50 to hit][0.92 to wound with re-roll][0.91 Force Weapon][0.67 getting through the psychic hood]

Against Huron
[6 attacks][0.91, Sanguine Sword][0.91, Unleash Rage][0.42 Transfixion][0.83 to hit with re-roll][0.92 to wound with re-roll][0.67 to fail saves][Instant Death]
[3 attacks][0.91 Warptime][0.67 defeats Psychic Hood][0.75 to hit with re-roll][0.92 to wound with re-roll]

Are these numbers accurate?

Nurglitch - can you number crunch Mephiston Vs a SAG (scatter included), and vs a Zzapp gun battery? Just one shooting phase as if it gets to CC the above are toast.

sourclams wrote:
If Meph charges Abby with preferred enemy/S10, he'll kill Abaddon at the top of the second assault with 1-2 wounds remaining if Abby rolls 5 or lower on his Daemon Weapon.

If Abby charges Meph with PE/S10, Abbadon will die at the top of the second assault if he rolls 4 or lower on his Daemon Weapon.

If Meph has no special powers up and charges Abby, Meph will die at the bottom of 2 and Abby should have 1-2 wounds left if he rolls more than 1 on his Daemon Weapon.

And if Meph with no powers gets charged, he could die at the bottom of 1 and Abby should have 3 wounds left if he rolls a 5+ for Daemon Weapon.

Abaddon actually has to roll unusually well for his Daemon Weapon to take out a naked Meph in 1-2 turns.

And if Meph has two powers up, he's going to "leave him face down in China Town" unless Abby rolls a 5+ for Daemon Weapon in the first round of assault if Abby is charging, and only a 6 will save him from horrible death if he gets charged.

People are way too hung up on Mephiston not having an invuln save. 5 wounds is a huge wound pool to have to chop through for any special character.

Yes, but wouldn't the Chaos player be "dumb" to allow any of these scenarios in which Abaddon dies to happen? Clearly only a substandard player would make such boneheaded mistakes.

You're dissecting valid arguments and posting them in the most stupid, asinine ways.

Abaddon has to be put into close combat for the Chaos player to get any use out of him whatsoever. Unlike Meph, he's a hugely expensive unit with no support utility that is slow as balls. Meph, by contrast, has a psychic hood, can move 12", and is fleet. All of these things give him a much larger mobility advantage than slow ICs like Abaddon and Ghaz. A BA player can afford to not commit Meph; CSM or Ork players can't really do the same with their ICs.

And in the offchance that Abby still gets the charge, if Meph has got PE/S10 up, he still wins the fight. He's a close combat powerhouse.

At this point I'd say the thread topic has been thoroughly debunked.

..... Ranged S10 hits?

sourclams wrote:You're dissecting valid arguments and posting them in the most stupid, asinine ways. ... At this point I'd say the thread topic has been thoroughly debunked.

Hold on. You were the one that was blithely dismissing anyone that gets Mephiston killed in a game as a bad player. Don't try to turn this around on me, jack.

Also, nothing has been debunked. I asked if anyone agreed or disagreed. Clearly you disagree. Are you really that angry about imaginary Space Men with swords and the outcome of their deathmatch?

Monster Rain wrote:

sourclams wrote:You're dissecting valid arguments and posting them in the most stupid, asinine ways. ... At this point I'd say the thread topic has been thoroughly debunked.

Hold on. You were the one that was blithely dismissing anyone that gets Mephiston killed in a game as a bad player. Don't try to turn this around on me, jack.

Also, nothing has been debunked. I asked if anyone agreed or disagreed. Clearly you disagree. Are you really that angry about imaginary Space Men with swords and the outcome of their deathmatch?

With your raging hate-on for meph it makes me think you lost against him and you wanted to make yourself feel better

Heh. Lost a game with one of my only kills being Mephy. Then again, that's what happens with 2 years experience versing him. (Now how to kill a Honour guard)

kitsunez wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

sourclams wrote:You're dissecting valid arguments and posting them in the most stupid, asinine ways. ... At this point I'd say the thread topic has been thoroughly debunked.

Hold on. You were the one that was blithely dismissing anyone that gets Mephiston killed in a game as a bad player. Don't try to turn this around on me, jack.

Also, nothing has been debunked. I asked if anyone agreed or disagreed. Clearly you disagree. Are you really that angry about imaginary Space Men with swords and the outcome of their deathmatch?

With your raging hate-on for meph it makes me think you lost against him and you wanted to make yourself feel better

How'd you know?

Had you read the OP, you'd know that it was quite the opposite. Also, if anyone ever feels the need to "make themselves feel better" in regard to any 40k Special Character they should really just end it.

Monster Rain wrote:

kitsunez wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

sourclams wrote:You're dissecting valid arguments and posting them in the most stupid, asinine ways. ... At this point I'd say the thread topic has been thoroughly debunked.

Hold on. You were the one that was blithely dismissing anyone that gets Mephiston killed in a game as a bad player. Don't try to turn this around on me, jack.

Also, nothing has been debunked. I asked if anyone agreed or disagreed. Clearly you disagree. Are you really that angry about imaginary Space Men with swords and the outcome of their deathmatch?

With your raging hate-on for meph it makes me think you lost against him and you wanted to make yourself feel better

How'd you know?

Had you read the OP, you'd know that it was quite the opposite. Also, if anyone ever feels the need to "make themselves feel better" in regard to any 40k Special Character they should really just end it.

personal attack removed.

Hold on. You were the one that was blithely dismissing anyone that gets Mephiston killed in a game as a bad player. Don't try to turn this around on me, jack

From your OP:

Monster Rain wrote:
If he's not hiding, he's being smooshed with Thunder Hammers or rendered into a greasy spot on the table with meltaguns.

So which Thunder Hammers can Meph not out-fight (Thunderwulf Cav) or out-run (any other TH unit)? How exactly are 9 BS4 meltaguns getting within 12" of Meph to shoot while also circumventing cover from terrain or screening units?

In short, how exactly does one lose Meph in the manner your OP described without being a totally incompetent player?

SAG?

Heh, of course, the SAG......

I love my plasma powered orksies. Yet to kill Meph with loota fire yet. Got a wound on him with Gitz....

And do keep in mind, if you want to charge Meph, you need to nearly wipe out his screening unit with your shooting first, as they're going to be in your way to charge him, and him not being an IC means he doesn't have to pile in if you charge them.

Word to the wise - Meph eats a squad of boyz a turn almost. You don't let him get into range.

the_ferrett wrote:Word to the wise - Meph eats a squad of boyz a turn almost. You don't let him get into range.

A 12 strong mob of truk boys yes, a 30 strong mob of foot boys no.

Round 1: If all 6 of Meph's attacks and 1 out of 6 to wounds is a 1 then 5 boys die. Nob's power claw should do 1.25 wounds per turn, and a little over 3.25 boys die from fearless

Round 2: Prefered enemy goes away. Meph only has 5 attacks 2/3 hit and 5/6 wound resulting in 2.9 wounds. Nob's power claw does 1.25 wounds, and about 1.5 boys die from fearless.

By the end of round 2 Meph is down 2.5 wounds, and 12.5 boys are dead (75 points of boys)

Round 3: Meph does another 2.9 wounds, claw does 1.25 wounds, and about 1.5 boys die from fearless.

Round 4: Meph does another 2.9 wounds, claw does 1.25 wounds, and the ork mob is no longer fearless because it's down to 10 orks

By the end of round 4 Meph is down 5 wounds and dead, so the works don't have to take a morale test. The mob is down 20 boys (120 points) to kill a 250 point CC monster.

Meph is a CC monster, but he only has 4 base attacks (+1 for 2 CC weapons) At 250 points it's a waste of his attacks to blow them on 6 point models.

sourclams wrote:

Hold on. You were the one that was blithely dismissing anyone that gets Mephiston killed in a game as a bad player. Don't try to turn this around on me, jack

From your OP:

Monster Rain wrote:
If he's not hiding, he's being smooshed with Thunder Hammers or rendered into a greasy spot on the table with meltaguns.

So which Thunder Hammers can Meph not out-fight (Thunderwulf Cav) or out-run (any other TH unit)? How exactly are 9 BS4 meltaguns getting within 12" of Meph to shoot while also circumventing cover from terrain or screening units?

In short, how exactly does one lose Meph in the manner your OP described without being a totally incompetent player?

Are we doing this again?

I've covered this... Your insistence that only a terrible player will get their expensive HQ killed is not necessarily true. Your main point, that Mephiston doesn't suck if used correctly is valid. I've conceded that point. I don't know what you're trying to accomplish.

Monster Rain wrote:

sourclams wrote:You're dissecting valid arguments and posting them in the most stupid, asinine ways. ... At this point I'd say the thread topic has been thoroughly debunked.

Hold on. You were the one that was blithely dismissing anyone that gets Mephiston killed in a game as a bad player. Don't try to turn this around on me, jack.

Also, nothing has been debunked. I asked if anyone agreed or disagreed. Clearly you disagree. Are you really that angry about imaginary Space Men with swords and the outcome of their deathmatch?

The premise of this thread was just wrong.

It would be similar (but more OTT) to have a thread called "Melta fail" for the same reasons.

All subsequent posts that try to disagree or go around/evade the valid and fair comments made about meph's mobility, Beat-stick'ness and tactical flexibility are just pointless.

Monster Rain wrote:I was again disappointed when comparing the "ZOMG THE SKY IZ FALLING [insert unit from new codex here] WILL DESTROY US ALL" that I read on forums with in-game reality. In this case the over-hyped unit was none other than Mephiston of the Blood Angels.

If he's not hiding, he's being smooshed with Thunder Hammers or rendered into a greasy spot on the table with meltaguns. He's tough, but the lack of an invulnerable save is just unforgivable. Just thought I'd throw that out there. The Sanguinor is a hell of a lot better in my opinion. Anyone agree? Disagree?

Not sure if Sanguinor is much better. With only T4 and 4? wounds, even with a storm shield he is easy to gun down with basic guns (at least Meph needs something like hammers and meltas). Meph is also much easier to hide and is a monster in melee. On the other hand, the golden boy can deep strike, ALWAYS has his wings, and then there are his buffs.

Frankly, for their costs, both characters are quite lame compared to Wolves or SM. Except for Dante, and maybe 1 or 2 others, all BA characters are pretty weak.