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Inigo Montoya wrote:

Norade wrote:

The Fox Lord wrote:

Inigo Montoya wrote:There is some horrible advice here.


1.Boyz before toyz
2. Slugga boyz in transports.
3. Shoota mobs on foot
4. nob with pk (and bp if possible) in EVERY mob.
5. If you are walking, 3 x 3 kan wall with 2 kff meks
6. If you are driving, all trukks or all 'wagons.
7. Lootas. In a wagon if you are riding, on the ground if you are walking

That will point you in the right direction.

A nob without a power klaw? Seriosly? SERIOUSLY??
Big shootas or rokkits in a sloggin slugga mob - move 6 and shoot? Seriously? SERIOUSLY?
Stop giving advice and start taking some! We will all be better off.

You sure you play Orkz I kid, I kid
Anyway I almost never use PKs I perfer Big Choppaz & the Rokkits are only there in case I run into armor or bunkers
Lootas could be intreating, but Burnaz iz more fun HA HA FIRE FIRE HA HA FIRE FIRE

So you prefer to waste points on an upgrade that's hardly better than choppas, can't crack AV14 and grants saves, and then, in your foot squads who should be running each turn and killing with a klaw you suggest wasting even more points on BS2 rokkits. You must either be the worst ork player ever or a troll.

Seriously please stop giving advice, you're terrible at it.

wtf are you talking about? Are you saying - shootas are free - what upgrade is being paid for that is marginally better than a choppa? A PK does crack av14. Not easily, but it does. If you are referring to my last 3 lines, read my whole post again. That was BAD advice given earlier. If you actually bother to read the post, you will see that those last 3 lines are in direct opposiution of the actual advice I give.

I have played orks for many years, and have been very successful with them. Take it or leave it, but I gave solid, sound advice.

Sorry I caught your quote in there by mistake, I was referring to The Fox Lord's advice, I was actually defending your idea.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Fox Lord wrote:Norad, I do not appreciate your "Worst Ork player ever" & " Troll" Coments, I have been realtively polite to you, even when your opinions have seriously me off, I have played orks for nearly a decade and a half and through four editions, I know where of I speak

I find that very hard to believe though I suppose long time player doesn't mean knowledgeable player... Honestly your advising rokkits and big shootas in slugga mobz, and taking big choppas over klaws, that immediately flags you as an easy win against most lists. I also notice that though you have experience, maybe you're not as good as you think you are.

The Fox Lord wrote:Norad, I do not appreciate your "Worst Ork player ever" & " Troll" Coments, I have been realtively polite to you, even when your opinions have seriously me off, I have played orks for nearly a decade and a half and through four editions, I know where of I speak

The Fox Lord wrote:King Krumpz Boyz: Kalculatin pts Wins 1 Loses 0 Draws 0

You've only played a single match with your orks in 15 years, and don't know how many points you have? Yeah, okay.

And, rudeness aside, your advice is pretty horrible.

No I've only played one game, with this Ork list, since I started bothering to keeping tack (Last week). If you don't like my advice (such as it is) don't take it

The Fox Lord wrote:No I've only played one game, with this Ork list, since I started bothering to keeping tack (Last week). If you don't like my advice (such as it is) don't take it

I'm more worried that some younger player will see your advice and decide to give it a try. They will lose, then come back here, and we'll tear there list apart and ask them where they heard such bad advice.

The Fox Lord wrote:No I've only played one game, with this Ork list, since I started bothering to keeping tack (Last week). If you don't like my advice (such as it is) don't take it

The problem is that we know you don't have a clue what you are talking about, the newer members do not.
Understand this: Competetively, your ideas are without merit. You will lose badly and you will lose often. You apparently lack a fundamental understanding of warhammer 40k in general and orks specifically. If you have been playing for 20 years then you have been playing poorly for 20 years!

Honestly, if you enjoy playing as you play, then more power to you. The problem is that you need to refrain from giving advice to our new users. The reason that Dakka is my main 40k site is the solid advice in these forums. You are undermining that, and it really rubs me the wrong way.

/rant

First Post
- Hi, this is what works for me
Second Post
-Flipant coment to flipant post
Thrid Post
-Another flipant coment to another flipant post
Forth Post
-Thanking someone for rembering what the them of the thread & heart of the question was + another flipant coment
Fith Post
-If your gonna Mathhammer, Show all your work (this actualy defended Norads position not mine)
Sixth Post
-Look some actual advice and it's on how to fight Orks, not Use them
Seventh Post
-Joking coment in response to joking coment
Eigth Post
-Flipant/Joking coment + personal opion
Ninth Post-Eleventh Post
-Defending myself from a clear and uncalled for attack/Explaining myself to fools

Throughout this thread I've only given advice once, and it was on defeating orks not winging with them.
I will give only one piece of true advice, "It's not what works on paper, It's what works for you."

Thread Unsubscribed you all and good night!

The Fox Lord wrote:<snip whining>

Good riddance.

Lol. Thead drama.

Shatter.proof wrote:Lol. Thead drama.

lol, pointless +1 posting.

After all this i like the majority it seems went with slugga choppa. In all probability you will get to shoot your bs 2 guns once and it means you might not get to assault this or next turn. And that mean's taking more fire than if you were slugga

Also truck boys seem silly. Kill 3 orcs and they probably will leg it out of there and if they win the combat but take casualties which they most probably will with I 4 on most stuff one squad shooting at them will make em leg it.

In your math hammer you showed that the shoota boys do win but not by too much and you never factored in them getting shot up more and the fact that to fire and assault they must be very close while slugga and shoota can get a extra 6 inches onto their charge in the event of the waagggh.

ChocolateGork wrote:After all this i like the majority it seems went with slugga choppa. In all probability you will get to shoot your bs 2 guns once and it means you might not get to assault this or next turn. And that mean's taking more fire than if you were slugga

Also truck boys seem silly. Kill 3 orcs and they probably will leg it out of there and if they win the combat but take casualties which they most probably will with I 4 on most stuff one squad shooting at them will make em leg it.

In your math hammer you showed that the shoota boys do win but not by too much and you never factored in them getting shot up more and the fact that to fire and assault they must be very close while slugga and shoota can get a extra 6 inches onto their charge in the event of the waagggh.

Please prove to me that I'll only get to fire my guns once?

As for calling trukk boys silly I have to ask if you've played against them? They're fast, and if backed by support such as lootas to crack transports they can eat what falls out and then take cover from incoming fire in the wrecked transport the fools they just krumpt came from. While I will agree they are less good with everybody taking as much firepower as they can to crack vehicles and with flamers to burn them once they drop from a transport if used well multiple squads of trukk boys with support will roll up a flank and leave very little left to shoot at them. This isn't even mentioning that every turn spent shooting trukk boys is one not spent shooting BW nobz and lootas.

My math hammer also didn't show shoota boyz behind kans which are in turn protected by a KFF. Even base they're better than slugga boys and retain the option to run to get a favorable charge. They're still more than killy enough in cc to win without an extra attack, are more flexible, and can avoid wounds by softening things up before they charge.

Yeah but then whatever you shoot at has a 4+ cover save and how hard can 3 squadrons of Kans be to take down? with squad rules and low armour i mean come on.

oh and you can fire your guns once if you want to Assualt instead of sitting behind some kans with crappy guns and that's if the kans are still there and if they arent well then you have the people you were advancing on with near definitely more effective shooting attacking you and you will most likely get no save. Imagine going up against 6 hydras? or even 9? or Imagine 9 Broadsides?

ChocolateGork wrote:Yeah but then whatever you shoot at has a 4+ cover save and how hard can 3 squadrons of Kans be to take down? with squad rules and low armour i mean come on.

oh and you can fire your guns once if you want to Assualt instead of sitting behind some kans with crappy guns and that's if the kans are still there and if they arent well then you have the people you were advancing on with near definitely more effective shooting attacking you and you will most likely get no save. Imagine going up against 6 hydras? or even 9? or Imagine 9 Broadsides?

Given how easy cover is to get this addition and the low AP on ork weapons giving the enemy a 4+ save doesn't really hurt them. As for how hard it is to take down kans, it depends, in most builds these days 2 squads will have rokkits and one will have grotzookas over two turns the rokkits are likely to damage a vehicles threatening them and grotzookas will take out heavy weapons teams. That's of course ignoring other means of threat removal. Then they have AV10, not impressive, but when it is given a 4+ cover save and there are a pair of deff dreads stomping up as well also in cover you tend to have an issue. Not to mention that each turn spent shooting at kans is a turn that the boyz aren't targeted.

As for getting no save, you must truly be a special case, the KFF Big Meks hidden in 30 boy squads give 5+ cover to any no-vehicle unit within 6" and 4+ cover to any vehicle within 6". You also don't factor in that after they charge, if they aren't counter charged or shot to death, the orks can then shoot again. This is of course assuming they need to assault, because the kans can tie things up very well as a large number of units with either have no way to hurt them, or will rely on krak grenades to defeat them.

6 Hydras vs. Orks with a 4+ Save
24 shots, 18 hits, 15 wounds, 7.5 dead Orks
450 points kills 45 points

6 Hydras vs. Orks with a 5+ Save
24 shots, 18 hits, 15 wounds, 10 dead Orks
450 points kills 60 points

9 Hydras vs. Orks with a 4+ Save
32 shots, 24 hits, 20 wounds, 10 dead orks
675 points kills 60 points

9 Hydras vs. Orks with a 5+ Save
32 shots, 24 hits, 20 wounds, 13.333 dead orks
675 points kills 80 points

9 Broadsides vs. Orks with a 4+ Save
9 shots, 8 hits, 7 wounds, 3.5 dead Orks
720 points kills 21 points

9 Broadsides vs. Orks with a 5+ Save
9 shots, 8 hits, 7 wounds, 4.666 dead Orks
720 points kills 28 points

This shows me you dont know the first thing about playing the game so kindly stop interjectying bad advice into this thread.

Firstly the bsides and the hydras target kans not the troops but if everyone is packed that tightly russ's and vindicator and basilisks will have a great time and basilisks can shoot over your kan wall

ChocolateGork wrote:Firstly the bsides and the hydras target kans not the troops but if everyone is packed that tightly russ's and vindicator and basilisks will have a great time and basilisks can shoot over your kan wall

So you'll have 9 hydras and still have Russes, Vindicators, and Basies? I sense a troll. If they have those vehicles then the kans will reach their lines to break things, if they don't the boyz do. If they have a mix they could win big with both or not have enough for either depending on the dice. Things like arty are also vulnerable to flankers and orks have some of the best flankers in the game with Koptas, Snikrot, and Buggies.

choppa slugga is better. shooting is worthless with shootas, i rather just keep moving and running each turn.

italiaplaya wrote:choppa slugga is better. shooting is worthless with shootas, i rather just keep moving and running each turn.

Funny, the math shows the exact opposite. Besides most boyz get used as a meat shield anyway and 30 orks can crush nearly anything in combat even with one less attack. That and shootas can still run and even if they do so long as they don't need to run they turn they assault they beat slugga boyz.

What If Your shooty horde goes up against a choppa horde? with wagghh you get one turn of shooting with most likley getting the charge.

Then they need to squeeze through my kan wall and if I can put some terrain between me and them they might get caught short. Alternative, I see this coming, forgo shooting and let them stew and give myself the charge.

I will math hammer out worst case, full squad on full squad though to see how bad my side gets it if you get the charge versus unsupported shoota boyz with no cover for either side, and then I'll show it the other way as well.

Shootas Shooting:
27 shootas: 54 shots, 18 hits, 9 wounds, 8 killed
3 big shootas: 9 shots, 3 hits, 2 wounds, 1.667 killed
Total 9.667 kills rounded up to 10

Sluggas Shooting:
Nothing due to WAAAGH!

Sluggas Charge:
Slugga Boyz: 76 attacks, 38 hits, 19 wounds, 15.833 killed
Shoota Boyz: 26 attacks, 13 hits, 4.333 wounds, 3.611 killed
Slugga Nob: 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1.667 wounds, 1.667 killed
Shoota Nob: 3 attacks, 1.5 hits, 1.25 wounds, 1.25 killed
No retreat: 13 wounds, 11 kills
Slugga Kills: Shooting 0, Melee 28
Shoota Kills: Shooting 10, Melee 4

Next turn 16 orks out in the open get counter charged or shot to death.

Sluggas Shooting:
29 sluggas: 29 shots, 9.667 hits, 4.833 wounds, 4.028 killed
1 shoota: 2 shots, 0.667 hits, 0.333 wounds, 0.278 killed
4.278 kills round down to 4

Shootas Shooting:
25 shootas: 50 shots, 16.667 hits, 8.333 wounds, 6.944 killed
3 big shootas: 9 shots, 3 hits, 2 wounds, 1.667 killed
Total 8.611 kills rounded up to 9

Shottas Charge:
Shoota Boyz: 75 attacks, 37.5 hits, 18.75 wounds wounds, 15.625 killed
Slugga Boyz: 15 attacks, 7.5 hits, 2.5 wounds, 2.083 killed
ShootaNob: 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1.667 wounds, 1.667 killed
Slugga Nob: 3 attacks, 1.5 hits, 1.25 wounds, 1.25 killed
No retreat: 13 wounds, 11 kills
Shoota Kills: Shooting 9, Melee 28.292
Slugga Kills: Shooting 4, Melee 4

As we can see the shootas do much better charging and accepting the charge so long a they can shoot even once.

Yes but they are a lot less likely to get the charge and as we also saw a slugga boys squad did a lot better in close

So i think if it was a slugga Kan wall vs a shoota Kan wall the sluggas would win i think but that is my opinion

So We have seen they all have their up and downs o why not just leave it to personal preference if you want a cc tide then the slugga if you want a dakka dakka horde then shoota's

ChocolateGork wrote:Yes but they are a lot less likely to get the charge and as we also saw a slugga boys squad did a lot better in close

So i think if it was a slugga Kan wall vs a shoota Kan wall the sluggas would win i think but that is my opinion

So We have seen they all have their up and downs o why not just leave it to personal preference if you want a cc tide then the slugga if you want a dakka dakka horde then shoota's

Because math shows that on the charge it doesn't matter if you're a slugga or a choppa if you get there with 20+ boyz you will still eat things. Shootas are more flexible and if they can shoot and charge far and away better. All other things equal I'd say the shoota kan wall wins, because in running your sluggas will either outpace your kans, or your kans don't shoot. You either break formation, get shot and lose, or reduce your fire power by 9 kans for the first few turns.

That's your opinion i don't think mine will ever change cept maybe in the next codex in some years time.

But for beginner's dont you think they should go slugga's becuase then you dont need to buy 9 kan's and you get sluggas with the awesome priced AoBR

Honestly, you can use shootas with grots for that 4+ cover and KFF for when the grots die. That's what's done in smaller games and can work with kan walls. You let the sluggas hit your screen and then shoot and counter charge them. They screen back, you laugh and shoot them, they get better saves, but they don't shoot back nearly as hard and still have a screen to clear.

But they have even more boys than you behind the boys that destroyed your screen becuase you used your troop choices on GROTZ

I also have an extra hundred points on them to grab extra dakka. Honestly, in the hands of anybody half decent shootas win. I'm not saying you're bad, but have you tried slogging shootas yet?

Thats your opinion mine shall not be changed

i just did a test using dice between a squad of 30 shoota boyz with 3 big shootaz and a Nob against a squad of 30 slugga boyz and a nob charging through cover...

at 30 inches the sluggas lost on from shooting by the big shoota. they then moved 12 inches

at 18 inches they lost another 8 they then declared a waagh and charged a total of 14 inches which left the short

the shoota boyz reduced them to 9 and then they them sleves charged decimating the squad with no losses at all.

Andarin wrote:i just did a test using dice between a squad of 30 shoota boyz with 3 big shootaz and a Nob against a squad of 30 slugga boyz and a nob charging through cover...

at 30 inches the sluggas lost on from shooting by the big shoota. they then moved 12 inches

at 18 inches they lost another 8 they then declared a waagh and charged a total of 14 inches which left the short

the shoota boyz reduced them to 9 and then they them sleves charged decimating the squad with no losses at all.

A single test proves nothing and while it does support my idea it isn't proof I can use.

First off Kans are AV 11/11/10.

ChocolateGork, by freeing up the points with Grots, Norade purchases a Deff Dredd with a Skorcha and extra DCCW, who is immune to the Boyz and requires you to shift your PK Nob up to him in order to hurt it. Which is still hitting on front armour. Not to mention the casualties on a large boyz mob getting hit with a S5, AP4 Flame Template.

Thanks, it's nice to see that some players here still know how to play orks. The amount of bad lists and worse advice is killing me and I don't even play greenskins very much.