Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Well said CT.

I managed to sense a tad bit of jealousy in the thread earlier.

No Jealosy here, really (I wouldnt mind hiring the guy though).

Im more in favor of the GW Tervigon image, I was a bit dismayed at how much the seller was asking for a Spore Pod, granted it was larger then many out there, but seemed a bit much.

BTW this isnt the first time his account has been suspended, I believe last time it was because he was selling obvious recast (dont know the reason this time).

Fanboi apologists are devoted to GW like it's a religion.

You're posting here brought this to their attention and just as they flame Chapterhouse threads here and Troll Forged new minis, they can't actually harm either of them.

In this case however, they can go running and screaming and 'tell on' this guy to Ebay. Don't beat yourself up too much Kroothawk, he's obviously gone to ground and come back again before.

Can't kill the message...

Damn, I just ordered some Thunderwolf Cavalry from him. Wonder if I will get them.

Wow... interesting thread lol

I think the Tervi stand-in is fantastic, unique design without feeling to un-nid like (I particularly like the old school hydralisk face). The quality of sculpt is super high and even for 100 bucks, I don't think that is too much for it. Look at it this way, it looks like a large kit to me, so let's put it at a landraider or trygon kit price, 55 or 65 bucks? Then consider the hours you would have to put in to convert say a carnie into any kind of good looking tervigon. Minimum 6-8 hours work in my book, for me probably a lot more. So how much is your time worth? Even at minimum wage in most places, 100 bucks vs the cost of a kit to convert plus your time is pretty fair i.m.o. The spore pod I think is overpriced at 100 bucks, because it is just a pod, a fairly simple if nice sculpt, and not a centerpiece model. I dunno, sometimes I feel like there should be a price ceiling on something based on it's game function if you know what I mean. So those are my thoughts on that topic.

To the Kroot, Pyri and Nick firefight lol, as someone who has spoken and interacted with all 3 several times, I personally think they are all great guys, and knowledgeable, helpful hobbyists. I think all 3 are right in their own way.

On Kroot;s side, this is definitely a sculptor to be appreciated, and I am sure many of us are grateful that he shared this with us. I also understand his frustration that the discussion turned a bit aggresive, when he was trying to share something he found for us to enjoy.

On Pyri's side, it sounds like this guy is a notorious re-caster, or at least was, and as someone who tries pretty hard to stay legal despite appearances, I can see how he would dislike being compared to him. For the price, I think he is offended at how high it is as a pyriel an average consumer, not as a chapterhouse rep, because in terms of competition, it's actually good for chapterhouse if they are literally 3X cheaper than this guy. So I don't think it's a competition thing, it seems pretty obvious to me he just thinks it's a pretty big gouge on all buyers, himself included. Traditionally speaking profit does not exceed certain percentages in a product competitive market, and obviously pyri is knowledgeable enough about material costs and casting to know this guy is making quite a bit on them at the price we all seem to agree is a fair estimate - 100+ bucks. It is definitely enough to raise an eyebrow at the pricing policy looking at it that way. To me though, it's kind of irrelavant what the cost is. If someone wants to pay 100 bucks, let them, its a mini, let's face it the worth is whatever an individual deems ok right? If they like it enough to shell out, there isn't really anything wrong with it... after all if it makes them happy to buy it knowing full well what the price is, it's not really a rip-off.

On Nick/Chapterhouses side - Just because anyone from CH also make mini's doesn't mean CH is no longer allowed to have opinions as individuals, or look at things as a consumer and hobbyist. I always got the impression CH was very much inspired to make items kits they've always wanted themselves, and more importantly, things their friends and peers have expressed interest in too. CH has never made a product GW was making, they never took money out of GW's pocket as far as I'm concerned. If I want to use almost any CH product,I must first buy GW product, every CH purchase is accompanied by a GW purchase as far as I'm concerned... If you look at it that way, they are only supporting and supplementing, and we should try to treat them as such, not as profiteering pirates.

Anyways, let's all be friends lol, and Pyri, I don't blame you for getting p'od at some of these things dude, you eat a lot of kak from haters, one part of me thinks Nick is a bit right though that as a CH representative you may have to be a bit more corporate with your posts than you used to as you get more dakka famous. On the other hand, not taking any bs could make you even more talked about, and maybe that's not bad either! Jim Cameron is apparently a demonic a-hole, but hell, he makes great movies and I don't really care about his personality, certainly not enough to not want to see his stuff. In fact I kinda like him for being such a successful and skilled person despite being socially slowed lol. (Not saying I see Pyri that way at all, just making a case for separating individuals and their work)

Sorry for butting in, hope what I wrote makes sense and didn't offend any of you! All the best to you guys, and though the thread got a little 'flamey' it was an interesting treatise on 3rd party casting politics, priorities of customers, and where the line is... frankly I found it kind of educational, seriously!

MajorTom11 wrote:
On Nick/Chapterhouses side - Just because the also make mini's doesnt mean CH is no longer allowed to have an opinion, or look at things as a consumer and hobbyist.

It's not a big deal to have an opinion but when you start ranting like a madman like Pyriel and get all butt-hurt over it then it becomes a problem. When he started making a big deal over the stuff not being legitimate and being a rip-off when Chapterhouse is occasionally accused of it, it just got hypocritical.

Luckily I will just lose respect for him and NOT for the company.

Kroothawk wrote:There was no hate or negative feelings in similar threads on Warseer and Warpshadow from which the information was taken, just appreciation of the work. So I didn't see that coming.

just looked warseer) its because there no Chapterhouse guys or announcements, or Pyre guy in particular.

Grishnak is the creator of the Breeder (and I presume the pod), a ratman weapon team and the wolves that all obviously don't involve illegal recasts. Velard is the caster and distributor of the pod and potentially the breeder. Pyriel misunderstood that these two are actually different persons and drew false conclusions, making unfounded accusations to Grishnak's work.

I have no contact to Velard and have no idea where to get his products. And if I should find out, I will not tell anyone, not even in a PM. That's a lesson I have learnt.

penek wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:There was no hate or negative feelings in similar threads on Warseer and Warpshadow from which the information was taken, just appreciation of the work. So I didn't see that coming.

just looked warseer) its because there no Chapterhouse guys or announcements, or Pyre guy in particular.

That is because Warseer (and their GW contacts) see Chapterhouse as a threat to Games Workshop and quickly banishes any threads even mentioning Chapterhouse.

Yeah, Warseer, B&C and others get all foamy mouthed and shut them down fast.

So, depressing as this fact might be given the way this thread went, Dakka is the enlightened and tolerant forum on the web.

Anyway.... I do like the sculpt on the breeder. A lot - it takes the thing in a different direction to a lot of concepts we've seen so far and that's benefit.

Chapterhouse wrote:

penek wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:There was no hate or negative feelings in similar threads on Warseer and Warpshadow from which the information was taken, just appreciation of the work. So I didn't see that coming.

just looked warseer) its because there no Chapterhouse guys or announcements, or Pyre guy in particular.

That is because Warseer (and their GW contacts) see Chapterhouse as a threat to Games Workshop and quickly banishes any threads even mentioning Chapterhouse.

I know this has been done to death, so I'll be brief. I won't buy from Chapterhouse because the products are too close to GW IP, if not close then sat on top of (legal tosh grey areas and that). I would rather buy from retailers and small companies that make good 'counts as' without using GW's style imagery to drive it. The idea of using the mouthparts as part of the birthing mechanism is a good divergence being completely different to the original art.

I spend a lot of cash on small manufacturers as well as GW. ie Hasslefree, Heresy and the like because they make minis that are inventive and still useable in 40k without being too close. That is the reason for the poor reception on the other forums. I don't care either way, and will hold to my own theory as to what is right, and maybe enlightened to one is not so much for another.

Captain Jack wrote:

Chapterhouse wrote:

penek wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:There was no hate or negative feelings in similar threads on Warseer and Warpshadow from which the information was taken, just appreciation of the work. So I didn't see that coming.

just looked warseer) its because there no Chapterhouse guys or announcements, or Pyre guy in particular.

That is because Warseer (and their GW contacts) see Chapterhouse as a threat to Games Workshop and quickly banishes any threads even mentioning Chapterhouse.

I know this has been done to death, so I'll be brief. I won't buy from Chapterhouse because the products are too close to GW IP, if not close then sat on top of (legal tosh grey areas and that). I would rather buy from retailers and small companies that make good 'counts as' without using GW's style imagery to drive it. The idea of using the mouthparts as part of the birthing mechanism is a good divergence being completely different to the original art.

I spend a lot of cash on small manufacturers as well as GW. ie Hasslefree, Heresy and the like because they make minis that are inventive and still useable in 40k without being too close. That is the reason for the poor reception on the other forums. I don't care either way, and will hold to my own theory as to what is right, and maybe enlightened to one is not so much for another.

Hmm but you have no issues with buying GW stuff that is too close to so many other companies IP (Fox Studios, Hienlans, etc etc). Interesting . .

Chapterhouse wrote:


Hmm but you have no issues with buying GW stuff that is too close to so many other companies IP (Fox Studios, Hienlans, etc etc). Interesting . .

Anyone who has spent more than five minutes on Dakka knows that you (Chapterhouse) have all your ducks in a row when it comes to covering your own ass legally, and you have all your stock replies and defense arguements hot-keyed at his point.

Congrats.

People either like your stuff and will buy it or they don't and they won't either based upon quality of your products or if they see any ethical dilemma in what you do...


But what we are discussing here is a matter of class and rock throwing from a business perspective.

Your screen name is "Chapterhouse" and you have a sig banner promoting your business at the bottom of everything you post. You also advertise here as a sponsor. As such you are a business entity on these forums when you present your account that way, so your defense of "can't people have opinions" or whatever is not quite as cut and dry as that.

By setting up your account and the presentation of it as you have you are not some generic member posting his opinions you are Chapterhouse (the business). A business should not be slagging on other businesses, allowing people affiliated with it to do so, etc. IF a business chooses to do so then they open themselves up for direct criticism in return. Fair is fair after all...

IF you want to simply post opinions then maybe use a more anonymous account...

Sorry CT Gamer,

But how exactly am I throwing rocks? I think its interesting that someone wouldn't buy our stuff due to IP entanglements with GW, but on the other hand they are ok with buying GWs stuff when they are on that same line as well.

I dont think I was attacking in any way and I apologize to Jack if he thought I was as well.

I also did not "Slagg" another business..

Being a sponsor, should not mean I cant say anything just because someone may not agree with it.

On the other hand, being a paid sponsor means I should be able to talk about our goods here, does that mean other companies who are NOT paid should not (and there are many many of them lately).

I support Dakka, that does not mean I should be handicapped because of that decision.

CT GAMER wrote:

Chapterhouse wrote:


Hmm but you have no issues with buying GW stuff that is too close to so many other companies IP (Fox Studios, Hienlans, etc etc). Interesting . .

Anyone who has spent more than five minutes on Dakka knows that you (Chapterhouse) have all your ducks in a row when it comes to covering your own ass legally, and you have all your stock replies and defense arguements hot-keyed at his point.

Congrats.

People either like your stuff and will buy it or they don't and they won't either based upon quality of your products or if they see any ethical dilemma in what you do...


But what we are discussing here is a matter of class and rock throwing from a business perspective.

Your screen name is "Chapterhouse" and you have a sig banner promoting your business at the bottom of everything you post. You also advertise here as a sponsor. As such you are a business entity on these forums when you present your account that way, so your defense of "can't people have opinions" or whatever is not quite as cut and dry as that.

By setting up your account and the presentation of it as you have you are not some generic member posting his opinions you are Chapterhouse (the business). A business should not be slagging on other businesses, allowing people affiliated with it to do so, etc. IF a business chooses to do so then they open themselves up for direct criticism in return. Fair is fair after all...

IF you want to simply post opinions then maybe use a more anonymous account...

Wow that post disappeared into the warp... fek.

re-write

To be fair it was me who brought up the post as an individual or as a CH representative dichotomy, not Nick or Pyriel.

Also to be fair, Nick tends to be very diplomatic with his posts for the most part, and when he isn't, there is often no way for him to reply in any fashion to a confrontational statement by another user without seeming to be confrontational in return. Two things -
1. When one person makes a definitive statement, you can't digress without starting an argument really, kinda like chatting about religion with a hardcore church/temple/mosque goer.
2. To be perfectly honest, my impression has been the opposite, I have seen him reprimand other CH people quite strongly for being aggresive, even minorly, and then apologize publicly to the other party on the company's behalf.

Don't ignore #2 just because #1 is basically unavoidable given the subject matter. Like him or not I just thought it was a bit unfair, based on what I have seen myself in the 6 month's I've been a member here.

In general though, this is essentially an un-winnable debate, Nick is correct in a legal sense, other's are correct in a moral sense. It really just depends on how you choose to see things, but it would be damn tough to make someone on one side change their minds. The only option here is to agree to disagree and be respectful of each other no matter what, otherwise it WILL turn into a flamefest every time, for certain people there will be no middle ground.

Chapterhouse wrote:Sorry CT Gamer,

But how exactly am I throwing rocks? I think its interesting that someone wouldn't buy our stuff due to IP entanglements with GW, but on the other hand they are ok with buying GWs stuff when they are on that same line as well.

I dont think I was attacking in any way and I apologize to Jack if he thought I was as well.

I also did not "Slagg" another business..

Being a sponsor, should not mean I cant say anything just because someone may not agree with it.

On the other hand, being a paid sponsor means I should be able to talk about our goods here, does that mean other companies who are NOT paid should not (and there are many many of them lately).

I support Dakka, that does not mean I should be handicapped because of that decision.

My point was that you are speaking for Chapterhouse when you post not simply posting an opinion.

In the choice of how you have chosen to identify yourself and display your account you have opened the door for criticism of your own company, especially when you engage in participation of a thread about another business so closely related in concept to your own...

Yep, kick butt sculpt and I like . How about we not get into a whos better match and leave it to the product in question please. Lets be somewhat civil as this is the New & rumors not discussions. If you guys want to argue as such then take it to dicussions as this has gone beyond disrespectfull to the OP as he was just trying to show us something really cool that some people may want. As I have said before I think that model rocks and almost want to get one(somehow) just for the fun of painting it, but I have no idea personally what I would do with it, but all of that said thank you Kroot for showing us this.

Wow that post disappeared into the warp... fek.

re-write

To be fair it was me who brought up the post as an individual or as a CH representative dichotomy, not Nick or Pyriel.

Also to be fair, Nick tends to be very diplomatic with his posts for the most part, and when he isn't, there is often no way for him to reply in any fashion to a confrontational statement by another user without seeming to be confrontational in return. Two things -
1. When one person makes a definitive statement, you can't digress without starting an argument really, kinda like chatting about religion with a hardcore church/temple/mosque goer.
2. To be perfectly honest, my impression has been the opposite, I have seen him reprimand other CH people quite strongly for being aggresive, even minorly, and then apologize publicly to the other party on the company's behalf.

Don't ignore #2 just because #1 is basically unavoidable given the subject matter. Like him or not I just thought it was a bit unfair, based on what I have seen myself in the 6 month's I've been a member here.

In general though, this is essentially an un-winnable debate, Nick is correct in a legal sense, other's are correct in a moral sense. It really just depends on how you choose to see things, but it would be damn tough to make someone on one side change their minds. The only option here is to agree to disagree and be respectful of each other no matter what, otherwise it WILL turn into a flamefest every time, for certain people there will be no middle ground.

To sum it up:

1.) Most people find the breeder a creative masterpiece by Grishnak different from all previous models usable as a tervigon.
2.) Some people also like the drop pod, but find it very expensive.
3.) Noone could point out anything illegal about these sculpts, esp. no recasts. Only one poster said without checking, "he wouldn't be surprised because of a sculpt that his friend Velard did".
4.) There are different opinions on the caster and possible distributor of said models.
5.) Everyone in the SciFi and Fantasy scene is inspired by and borrows from creative work by others. This definitely includes GW and Blizzard, but also Chapterhouse Studio, Pyriel and Grishnak. This creative cross-pollination enriches the hobby instead of harming it.
6.) Facts and feelings about what is legal and intellectual property differ from person to person and between countries (e.g. in the USA you can claim the DNA of an indigenous woman from Guatemala to be your own intellectual property). While everyone is free not to buy a legal product, lawyers may try to stop the sale of certain products, reducing the options for gamers.
7.) I guess most people will agree that it is unfair to stop Grishnak from profiting from his creative work, esp. from his breeder sculpt.

Personally, I will continue to support small manufacturers enhancing the hobby, including Russian sculptors, Pyriel and Chapterhouse (and yes, Nick's posts in this thread seem fair to me).

Maybe it is time to close this thread, as it has already done more harm than good to the cause, with no perspective to get better.

Kroothawk wrote:This creative cross-pollination enriches the hobby instead of harming it.

Here here!

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:This creative cross-pollination enriches the hobby instead of harming it.

Here here!

Seconded, and Kroot, very nicely put sir.

Kroothawk wrote:To sum it up:

1.) Most people find the breeder a creative masterpiece by Grishnak different from all previous models usable as a tervigon.
2.) Some people also like the drop pod, but find it very expensive.
3.) Noone could point out anything illegal about these sculpts, esp. no recasts. Only one poster said without checking, "he wouldn't be surprised because of a sculpt that his friend Velard did".
4.) There are different opinions on the caster and possible distributor of said models.
5.) Everyone in the SciFi and Fantasy scene is inspired by and borrows from creative work by others. This definitely includes GW and Blizzard, but also Chapterhouse Studio, Pyriel and Grishnak. This creative cross-pollination enriches the hobby instead of harming it.
6.) Facts and feelings about what is legal and intellectual property differ from person to person and between countries (e.g. in the USA you can claim the DNA of an indigenous woman from Guatemala to be your own intellectual property). While everyone is free not to buy a legal product, lawyers may try to stop the sale of certain products, reducing the options for gamers.
7.) I guess most people will agree that it is unfair to stop Grishnak from profiting from his creative work, esp. from his breeder sculpt.

Personally, I will continue to support small manufacturers enhancing the hobby, including Russian sculptors, Pyriel and Chapterhouse (and yes, Nick's posts in this thread seem fair to me).

Maybe it is time to close this thread, as it has already done more harm than good to the cause, with no perspective to get better.

Well said all around, especially #7.

So, time to close up this thread, as per the OP's request.