Missile Spam in Longs Fangs.

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**Anpu42**

schadenfreude wrote:SW complain a lot about not having any ablative wounds in a long fangs pack, but I never see SW players add a bare bones wolf guard to a long fangs pack....

A Bare Bones Wolf Guard as a wound is a waist of points if it is only a Hit Point
I have two types of Wolf Guard I use
Wolf Guard: TDA, Storm Bolter, Power Weapon, Cyclone
or
Wolf Guard: TDA, Storm Bolter, Storm Shield, Cyclone, MotW

**Ed_Bodger**

Reecius wrote:
So to each their own, but splitting weapons in a squad or only taking a single unit of fangs is truly not the most sound decision from a tactics perspective.

You see this is just a sweeping statement that can easily be disproved depending on your list and your opponent. Yes 2 packs of Long Fangs is great but in an objective heavy game that is one less unit of objective holding GH. I have never run more than one pack of LF in a list under 2000 points and have never particularly felt the need for more heavy weapons. I find that the close fire support of GH (including their melta and plasma guns) and the assault power of WG, BC Characters and Dreadnaughts negates the need for lots of missile launchers.

I have seen sucessful armies that have utilised multiple LF packs but I think you are wrong to say that splitting weapons or taking one pack is the most sound decision because it is completly subjective to how you play your list.

**Gwar!**

How is it one less unit of GH? I tend to run 4-5 in every game I play, and I run the 18 Long Fangs of Dhoom, AND take Rhinos, With EXTRA ARMOUR (I KNOW! I AM MAD!)

SW are ALWAYS going to be shafted on multi objective games. Always have and always will, because we don't have Combat Squads. Every other 5th edition army can get Double Digit Scoring Units. Space Marines can get 12, as can Blood Angels. Tyranids can theoretically get 38 but the minimum possible with that list is 13. Guard can get 84 ffs! Dæmons as well can only get 6 iirc but they are 40k's bastard child so we'll ignore them.

To claim that it's Long Fangs that make objective games hard just shows you have no idea how Space Wolves play, IMO.

I mean, here is my 2k list:

2000 Pts - Space Wolves Roster

1 Rune Priest @ 110 pts (...in Power Armour)
1 Rune Priest in Power Armour (Chooser of the Slain; Living Lightning; Tempest's Wrath)

9 Grey Hunters Pack @ 210 pts (Mark of the Wulfen; Wolf Standard; Flamer; Flamer; Drop Pod)
1 Grey Hunter w/ Mark of the Wulfen
1 Drop Pod

9 Grey Hunters Pack @ 235 pts (Mark of the Wulfen; Wolf Standard; Meltagun; Meltagun; Rhino)
1 Grey Hunter w/ Mark of the Wulfen
1 Rhino (Dozer Blade; Extra Armor)

9 Grey Hunters Pack @ 235 pts (Mark of the Wulfen; Wolf Standard; Meltagun; Meltagun; Rhino)
1 Grey Hunter w/ Mark of the Wulfen
1 Rhino (Dozer Blade; Extra Armor)

9 Grey Hunters Pack @ 235 pts (Mark of the Wulfen; Wolf Standard; Meltagun; Meltagun; Rhino)
1 Grey Hunter w/ Mark of the Wulfen
1 Rhino (Dozer Blade; Extra Armor)

5 Grey Hunters Pack @ 115 pts (Flamer; Razorback)
1 Razorback

1 Venerable Dreadnought @ 215 pts (Extra Armor; Drop Pod)
1 Drop Pod

5 Long Fangs Pack @ 215 pts (Missile Launcher x5; Razorback)
1 Squad Leader (Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon)
1 Razorback (Twin Linked Lascannon)

5 Long Fangs Pack @ 215 pts (Missile Launcher x5; Razorback)
1 Squad Leader (Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon)
1 Razorback (Twin Linked Lascannon)

5 Long Fangs Pack @ 215 pts (Missile Launcher x5; Razorback)
1 Squad Leader (Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon)
1 Razorback (Twin Linked Lascannon)

Total Roster Cost: 2000

I have 83.33...% of possible Scoring units. Am I going to be Shafted on 5 Objective Missions? Yes, but that's not because of Long Fangs, it's because I can only take 6 Scoring Units. Hell, I could Drop the Ven Dread (Only use him because I have the Old OLD OOOOLD Bjorn Model and Bjorns rules suck

) and take another GH Squad, for a massive 6 Scoring units, and I STILL will struggle in 5 objective games.

**Nurglitch**

Splitting the weapons is a bad idea because it depends on your Long Fangs Squad Leader surviving, which is unlikely given the danger such a squad poses, and its small size. Once the Squad Leader is wounded and down, you will face the option of wasting your anti-tank firepower against infantry or your anti-infantry firepower against tanks.

As for taking a single pack, it's an interesting feature of Warhammer 40k that multiples of the same unit increase the effectiveness of such units in a non-linear way. This is particularly true of a unit with Fire Control or Power of the Machine Spirit.

**Snikkyd**

What about 3 long fangs with 2 MLs in a rhino that they use in the Razorback spam lists? Thats only 100 points and can shoot 2 missles at separate targets from inside a rhino firing out the top hatch. Not the best but I think that couldbe useful fo the points if you were to take 3 of them.

**Gwar!**

Or you could take 5 missiles for 140 points and actually kill something each turn!

**Jayden63**

I'm thinking of adding one unit of long fangs to complement my two Vindicators that I run in my Heavy support.

Stick the LFs in a ruin. They get cover and can see the whole board. Now my opponent can either let the vindicators get close, or can let the missiles smash into him all game long.

**Nurglitch**

Something to think about might be that the weapons used to deal with Vindicators are not the kind of weapons that are optimal for digging Long Fangs out of cover.

**Reecius**

Ed_Bodger wrote:You see this is just a sweeping statement that can easily be disproved depending on your list and your opponent. Yes 2 packs of Long Fangs is great but in an objective heavy game that is one less unit of objective holding GH. I have never run more than one pack of LF in a list under 2000 points and have never particularly felt the need for more heavy weapons. I find that the close fire support of GH (including their melta and plasma guns) and the assault power of WG, BC Characters and Dreadnaughts negates the need for lots of missile launchers.

I have seen sucessful armies that have utilised multiple LF packs but I think you are wrong to say that splitting weapons or taking one pack is the most sound decision because it is completly subjective to how you play your list.

I will make the argument, and stand behind it firmly, that the best use of your HS slots is to purchase 3 squads of ML long fangs. For the points, they are the most powerful choice you can take in the most situations you will face...which is why you see so many tournament lists using that load out.

Now, of course, you can provide anecdotal evidence to support the claim of how a different build would be better in certain circumstances, but my assertion is that in general, 3 units of 5 ML LF's will provide you the most bang for your buck.

As for them taking away a unit of GH's, I completely disagree. The LF's come in at a whopping 420 points. 6 units of GH's in Rhinos with good kit is only about 1200 to 1300 points. In a 2000 point game, that still leaves points for HQ and fun stuff.

So, you are completely free to hold your own opinion on the matter and to disagree with me, which is fine, but I honestly can not see a better use of the points or slots in HS and have yet to see an argument that would even come close to swaying my opinion, although if I did find one, I would be very open to it as I could gain a competitive advantage in tournament play. That has not happened yet, and I highly doubt that it will.

**schadenfreude**

Anpu42 wrote:
schadenfreude wrote:SW complain a lot about not having any ablative wounds in a long fangs pack, but I never see SW players add a bare bones wolf guard to a long fangs pack....

A Bare Bones Wolf Guard as a wound is a waist of points if it is only a Hit Point
I have two types of Wolf Guard I use
Wolf Guard: TDA, Storm Bolter, Power Weapon, Cyclone
or
Wolf Guard: TDA, Storm Bolter, Storm Shield, Cyclone, MotW

A bare bones wolf guard is 2 points more than a ablative marine added to a devastator squad in a codex marine list. 2 more points then a devastator, with a difference that small you're basically saying it's always a waste of points to add an extra body to a devastator squad.

Adding a cyclone missile launcher termie to a wolf guard unit isn't adding an ablative wound, it's increasing firepower by 40%. The cyclone missile launcher then becomes the lest expendable member of the unit. 21 Missile shots from the dev squads is a lot of firer power, the only downside is that's 3 less missile launchers/asscannons that can be taken by the army. If the plan was to take cyclones I see the merit in doing so from the long fangs pack (Though I myself wouldn't blow extra points on a storm shield or MOTW but that's just personal preference) If the plan was to take asscannons then cyclone missile launchers are not an option.

**sourclams**

What about 3 long fangs with 2 MLs in a rhino that they use in the Razorback spam lists? Thats only 100 points and can shoot 2 missles at separate targets from inside a rhino firing out the top hatch. Not the best but I think that couldbe useful fo the points if you were to take 3 of them.

This works fine. Especially in mech heavy lists, like razorback spam. Works great in conjunction with Typhoon speeders, because you've got 6 "worthless" targets that need to be shot with long range AT guns (notable exception, IG) yet that you can't really afford to ignore.

Gwar! wrote:Or you could take 5 missiles for 140 points and actually kill something each turn!

Also works fine.

I will make the argument, and stand behind it firmly, that the best use of your HS slots is to purchase 3 squads of ML long fangs. For the points, they are the most powerful choice you can take in the most situations you will face...which is why you see so many tournament lists using that load out.

The only real detriment that Long Fangs can face in relation to other HS is Dawn of War deployment. This is mitigated by giving them a rhino/razorback, so that they can make a first turn sprint to whatever terrain is handy and attempt to set up a firing lane, but DoW is a problem.

Of course, if there is no DoW scenario ('ard boyz coff coff) then LF are undeniably the most guns for the fewest points.

**Gwar!**

I agree with the Razorback/DoW comment. The number of times it's gotten me into a nice position is innumerable!

I do like how Long Fangs have Acute senses though! xD Almost as useful as Stikkbombs on Ghazghkul!

**MagicJuggler**

The extra movement afforded by the Rhino is situational, and should you be immobilized on the edge of difficult terrain when entering a board-edge...

The primary reason to take a Rhino for Long Fangs would be if you're doing a Razor-list, on account of Iron Priests getting cheaper Servitor-equivalents, and not being able to take Rhinos. This would give you the closest equivalent to a multimelta bunker that the Space Wulves have.

**Gwar!**

Thats why you always take Dozerblades!

**sourclams**

MagicJuggler wrote:The extra movement afforded by the Rhino is situational, and should you be immobilized on the edge of difficult terrain when entering a board-edge...

Dawn of War is the situation that you need the situational bonus of a rhino. And who cares if it gets immobilized? You only took it as a delivery method to get the LFs into Terrain.

**Darth Badguy**

Humblesteve wrote:As cool as that is, why wouldn't you give them MM's in that scenario? You're planning on being close enough to use the two tough guys right? Then drop them within 12'' and fry two landraiders while your at it.

That's a good question. I guess in case you want the flexibility of frag & krak vs 24" melta? It wasn't my list, just some clever, clever bastard over on B&C.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Soup and a roll wrote:No I didn't. You are so sued!

Oh man, and my lawyer just went to the Bahamas. With my girlfriend. And my mom.

Nothing is coming up Darth this week.

**imweasel**

Gwar, Reecius and Clams win this thread hands down.

**wuestenfux**

Missile spam in LF's?
Well, if you play a gunline army this approach is fine.
However, I've seen SW armies in which the LF's were sitting at one side of the board and the rest of the army was heading for the enemy's throat.
In turn 3, the LF's had nothing to shoot at.
LF's are pointless in an army geared towards assault.

**Powerguy**

Not really, more often than not you want your assault elements hitting the squishy stuff inside transports rather than having to deal with tanks themselves (they still need to be able to pop tanks through, its just better this way around because you can avoid being shot up next turn among other things). Relying on meltas is great until you run into mobile armies which keep running away from your assault elements (i.e Mechdar) or you run into a Guard list which can blast half your army to death before you can get even remotely close enough to drop them with meltas.
For 140 points gaining the ability to start doing damage turn 1 they are a steal. That situation sounds like either a case of terrible deployment or the SW army was running rampant by turn 3 and won anyway. MLs have 48" range so can usually find something to shoot providing you don't hide them in the back corner of the table.

**Hulksmash**

From personal experience I can't imagine what else I would want to take in my Heavy Support. 3x5 Missile LF's just gives to much fire support. My army is shooty oriented but my LF's all have razorbacks to mitigate DOW and I still run 5 scoring units and 3 elites at 2k.

Oh and the idea of mixing weapons is almost silly. My first wound is always taken on my sergeant. He almost always lives cause he's a bastard that way but without ablative wounds keeping my damage output up is more important than a guy that lets me split fire. And losing shots by killing heavy weapons first is kinda counter productive since after you lose 2 guys you might as well not be splitting fire.

**WARBOSS TZOO**

wuestenfux wrote:Missile spam in LF's?
Well, if you play a gunline army this approach is fine.
However, I've seen SW armies in which the LF's were sitting at one side of the board and the rest of the army was heading for the enemy's throat.
In turn 3, the LF's had nothing to shoot at.
LF's are pointless in an army geared towards assault.

Long Fangs are pointless in an army geared towards assault

Your mother is pointless! (I kid, I kid)

As Powerguy said, Long Fangs are useful in an assault focused army because they let your ripandtear units rip and tear flesh rather than tanks. But they're also useful because they make your opponent react to you, rather than the other way round. Does your opponent focus his long range attacks on your LFs, or the ripandtear? If the Long Fangs, excellent, it means that your assaulty boys are unmolested when they reach his front lines. If your assaulty units, great, because you still have fifteen missiles a turn headed at his stuff.

And what if you're facing someone who took your advice? If you didn't take LF's, you're stuck facing your opponent where he wants you to face him, in close combat. If you took MLLFs, you can take his army apart at range.

And all for the low low price of 420 points.

**Shep**

wuestenfux wrote:LF's are pointless in an army geared towards assault.

On the contrary. Armies that plan to win through assault desperately need consistent ways to open transports. Transports allow units to escape and are very difficult to kill in CC, and end up getting the assaulters killed for a gain of only 35-55 points.

Long range gunships like vendettas and land speeder tyhpoons love playing against CC armies with inadequate fire support.

Meltaguns aren't the answer for gunships, as they are generally well protected from close range fire by bubble wrap or even transports parked in front of them.

Don't leave missile spam long fangs at home... especially if you are an 'assault' army.

**MagicJuggler**

Pretty much everything Shep mentioned. Even for armies like Orks, whose main means for vehicle-killing is Power Klaw Nobs, you're going to want the means to shake/stun/immobilize vehicles beforehand, and deal with roadblock units like Vypers/Piranhas. Which is why Lootas are the first Elite chosen for most Ork armies.

**Snog77**

Gwar.

**Gwar!**

Snog77 wrote: Gwar.

I run 15 Missile Long Fangs. Each one is posed Differently.

**imweasel**

@Gwar

When you find it, let me know.

Fortunately for me I got ml's early on for 2.99 or 3.99 each.

But I could always use more!