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coming into this one pretty late so I'm just gonna touch on one thing that I didn't see mentioend..

Somthing that many people forget is that immolators have a fire point which can bet pretty handy. That may help sway immolators. ( I also don't understand why people think they are crappy, they are pretty good for a DT. "Fast" razorback eq with TLHF and a fire point for 65 points not to shabby)

Coming in at the end, here is my 'Ard Boyz list for a comparison. I believe that the Mech Sisters plus Exorcists with Guard to give a backline and Light Transport popping is the way to go.

JP Canoness with Evis
2xCelestians with 2xMelta in Immo (S-EA)
4xSisters (Melta, HF, Vet w/Book), Rhino (S-EA)
Vet Squad (Chim, 3x Melta, Demo) - Not legal outside 'AB
Platoon - PCS w/LasC, HWT 3xAC, 2xInfSq with AC
Exorcistx3
Seraphimx8 - Evis, 2x Hand Flamer
Inq Lord - 2xPlasG, 2x Sages, Bolter-Stake, Hood

A balance of a lot of what has been brought up.

- Guard for light transport pops and Obj Holders
- Mech Sisters for Objective Grabs, Infantry Kills, Melta for shots of opportunity
- Seraphim for Harassment and Tie Up
- Exorcist for 'Trouble Shooting' Armor
- Celestian Melta Suicide
-Canoness for tieing some poor bastid up
- Vet for when something just has to die.
- Inq to keep Psykers off my back and kill some poor squad of MEQs.


And I _do_ play in tournaments and competitively on occasion.


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IF you want to go pure sisters, you can drop the WH Inq Lord and IG and get about 3-5 Dominion/Celestian squads in Immos (Celest 2xMelta, Dom 2xMelta,2xFlamer) and get much the same effect.

Things that I like:

Cannonness w/ Eviscerator, Cloak of St Aspira w/ Celestian Bodyguard, 5 models, 2 w/ Meltas in an Immolator with EA + Smoke

I take two of these at the 2000 point level, TONS of faith, decent CC, excellent AT and anti horde. The Celestian Retinues are important because they remove IC status from your Canonness and she can no longer be targeted separately, meaning she'll get to swing back with the Eviscerator.

10 SoB's in Rhinos, Flamer, Heavy Flamer, Vet Sister, EA + Smoke on Rhinos

Take 3+ of these at 1500 points and onward. Excellent ant infantry firepower, good mobility, survivability, and will hold objectives well. Make sure to Divine Guidance them frequently. The lack of low AP weapons is countered by the sheer number of hits you'll inflict.

5 Dominions w/ 3 Meltas in Immolator w/ EA + Smoke. Simple transport killers. Drive up to enemy rhino/chimera/serpent, pop it with 3 meltaguns, and then Heavy Flamer the crap out of what pops out. Try to keep these near an SoB squad for support.

2-3 Exorcists. Nobody is going to ding an SoB list for being "beardy". On the contrary most people like fighting my SoB because they are so different and uncommon. They are only Str 8 but can destroy AV 14 because of AP 1. Downright deadly against anything below AV 14, and you've got tons of Melta for that.

eNvY wrote:Things that I like:I take two of these at the 2000 point level, TONS of faith, decent CC, excellent AT and anti horde. The Celestian Retinues are important because they remove IC status from your Canonness and she can no longer be targeted separately, meaning she'll get to swing back with the Eviscerator.

I agree with all of of what eNvY said, although I would qualify the above Canoness part.

The bad thing about Canoness in a retinue is that she now cannot use any 'roll under' powers (unless you take a really big retinue).

I am a big fan of a canoness on her own. Keep in mind that a 2+ invulnerable save probably means she is swinging that eviscerator no matter what.

if you put her in a seraphim squad with vet that totals about 7-9 after she joins you can usually get most powers off since you roll 3 and pick 2 IIRC.

eNvY wrote:
2-3 Exorcists. Nobody is going to ding an SoB list for being "beardy". On the contrary most people like fighting my SoB because they are so different and uncommon. They are only Str 8 but can destroy AV 14 because of AP 1. Downright deadly against anything below AV 14, and you've got tons of Melta for that.

Au contraire. I got my comp pwned in an RTT, and the triple exorcist was the only possible reason. This was in a stupid system that allowed negative comp scores, even -- I got between -2 and 1, out of a possible 5 or 6, from every person in the tournament.. It might have been that everyone feared my army so they wanted to chipmunk me, or they might have known I was a top competitor -- I did smoke everyone I played in that tournament, including the guy who got "first place." Mind you this was 4th ed, I haven't done that much smoking in 5th ed because everyone goes so crazy with anti-tank.

notabot187 wrote:if you put her in a seraphim squad with vet that totals about 7-9 after she joins you can usually get most powers off since you roll 3 and pick 2 IIRC.

And then they lose hit and run and your meat shields for the canoness are 22 pts a piece. No thanks.


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Ixe wrote:

Au contraire. I got my comp pwned in an RTT, and the triple exorcist was the only possible reason. This was in a stupid system that allowed negative comp scores, even -- I got between -2 and 1, out of a possible 5 or 6, from every person in the tournament.. It might have been that everyone feared my army so they wanted to chipmunk me, or they might have known I was a top competitor -- I did smoke everyone I played in that tournament, including the guy who got "first place." Mind you this was 4th ed, I haven't done that much smoking in 5th ed because everyone goes so crazy with anti-tank.

That's insane. They probably also comped DH for being OP.

Besides, the Canoness / Living Saint doesn't use Retinue rules for Seraphim squads. She uses Independent Character rules. Which means she CAN be singled out in close combat.

Melissia wrote:Besides, the Canoness / Living Saint doesn't use Retinue rules for Seraphim squads. She uses Independent Character rules. Which means she CAN be singled out in close combat.

Yeah, the problem with Eviscerator equipped Cannonness is that even a Space Marine Sergeant on the charge with a power sword can take her down. She's there to get you over the hump against other shooty units that still pack good stat lines (Tactical Marines for example, not all that rare) but shes not very survivable and a smart opponent will take her down before she swings. That's why the retinues are nice, they give her some meat shields that aren't bad in melee and combined they give you crap load of faith AND the retinues don't take up any FoC slots.


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Ixe wrote:

eNvY wrote:
2-3 Exorcists. Nobody is going to ding an SoB list for being "beardy". On the contrary most people like fighting my SoB because they are so different and uncommon. They are only Str 8 but can destroy AV 14 because of AP 1. Downright deadly against anything below AV 14, and you've got tons of Melta for that.

Au contraire. I got my comp pwned in an RTT, and the triple exorcist was the only possible reason. This was in a stupid system that allowed negative comp scores, even -- I got between -2 and 1, out of a possible 5 or 6, from every person in the tournament.. It might have been that everyone feared my army so they wanted to chipmunk me, or they might have known I was a top competitor -- I did smoke everyone I played in that tournament, including the guy who got "first place." Mind you this was 4th ed, I haven't done that much smoking in 5th ed because everyone goes so crazy with anti-tank.

Well I feel that comp is slowed anyways, but that's for another thread. Sometimes they ding you simply because of redundancy, but that's the hallmark of a good list IMO. Besides, any sting I would feel in comp scores would be quickly forgetting when I'm smashing apart Rhinos and Chimeras left and right with my 3 "beardy" exorcists

I've gotten bad comp scores for my own Sisters army . People do it just because they lost against your army and hadn't played against it before so they assume it's a broken list, therefor automatic bad score. Quite a few tournament players have bad attitudes.

I took a penitent engine in my list and people still complain my army is broken even though half the time it get's destroyed on the first turn. Always complaining about the Exorcist.

eNvY wrote:

Melissia wrote:Besides, the Canoness / Living Saint doesn't use Retinue rules for Seraphim squads. She uses Independent Character rules. Which means she CAN be singled out in close combat.

Yeah, the problem with Eviscerator equipped Cannonness is that even a Space Marine Sergeant on the charge with a power sword can take her down. She's there to get you over the hump against other shooty units that still pack good stat lines (Tactical Marines for example, not all that rare) but shes not very survivable and a smart opponent will take her down before she swings. That's why the retinues are nice, they give her some meat shields that aren't bad in melee and combined they give you crap load of faith AND the retinues don't take up any FoC slots.

Not with a 2+ invulnerable save, that Vet Sgt is not. She is one of the most survivable characters I've ever fielded. If you can make a Ld10 check every turn, she stays in combat and locks down a unit. The only thing to watch out for is torrents of attacks (30 wounds on her will make her die eventually just due to 1's being rolled). But for TW Cav, characters, etc. She's fine.

I locked down a squad of Assault Termies at 'AB for like 3 or 4 turns until she wiped them out. 2+ invulnerable is awesome. Not to mention with Hand of the Emperor she insta-kills Marine Characters with one wound getting through.

Retinues on the other hand make it harder for her to get her invul, but give you more swings and more bodies.

I prefer the solo JP myself.

If you're spending all of your fiath points on giving the Canoness a 2+ save, then you're not doing a very good job managing the army.

Remember, you have to burn a faith point EVERY PHASE. That means six to eight faith points burned for your little stunt. Which is faith points that your Battle Sisters couldn't use to Rapid Fire (indeed it could very well have been all of the faith points in your army!). Even with martyrdom, that kind of Act of Faith usage is impossible to keep up while still maintaining your army's overall effectiveness... basically you can focus all of your acts of faith to ensure that your solo Canoness is badass, but at the cost of the rest of your army.

Meanwhile, I can instead give her a retinue, and she'll STILL be badass. But the rest fo my army is stronger.

Melissia wrote:If you're spending all of your fiath points on giving the Canoness a 2+ save, then you're not doing a very good job managing the army.
Remember, you have to burn a faith point EVERY PHASE. That means six to eight faith points burned for your little stunt. Which is faith points that your Battle Sisters couldn't use to Rapid Fire (indeed it could very well have been all of the faith points in your army!). Even with martyrdom, that kind of Act of Faith usage is impossible to keep up while still maintaining your army's overall effectiveness... basically you can focus all of your acts of faith to ensure that your solo Canoness is badass, but at the cost of the rest of your army.

Meanwhile, I can instead give her a retinue, and she'll STILL be badass. But the rest fo my army is stronger.

Kind of a bold statement. Here's my (paraphrased) bold statement.

The less apt a (wo)man is to make declarative statements, the less apt (s)he is to make a fool of him(her)self.

It is one faith point per phase, sure. Most combats aren't going to last 6 turns. Keep in mind she has an eviscerator too, so she's still dealing out pain.

In my experience, I can use her to tie up key units that my girls may have a problem with while the girls deal with the rest of the army and I rarely run out of faith until turn 5 or 6 (at which point faith may come back from troop squads/celestians/seraphim dying). That includes generous faith use for the rest of my army as well.

I agree that the retinue thing is a good trick, but it is also more expensive. My canoness is 116 points of MEQ character killing, Assault unit tieing up, surprise assaulting goodness. Canoness, retinue and immo are gonna be a bit more than that. It is also a matter of personal preference, something we forget sometimes.

In the 'Ard Boyz scenario I mentioned against Terminators, she ignored Thunder Hammers and Lightning claws for several turns, wiping out a full squad and I still managed to Divine Guidance squads of sisters and regroup a few with points left over, massacre-ing my opponent.


The one place where my canoness is weak (in my 2nd and 3rd 'AB games) is if I leave her unattached and she gets shot. But that is a 'remind myself' kind of thing that I am bad at sometimes.

The solo jump canoness is a 4th edition relic. It doesn't work in 5th. Why? Defenders React. Now, you're automatically surrounded on the turn you charge and you're always going to be hit with the maximum number of attacks. Against certain very specific targets it's great. But some armies just won't present any targets like that, i.e. any horde army or any assault oriented army. If a unit is worthless against a substantial segment of armies, it is a bad unit and shouldn't be taken. The jump Canoness was awesome in 4th edition, but it's 2010 now. Wake up and smell the the new edition.

Ixe wrote:The solo jump canoness is a 4th edition relic. It doesn't work in 5th. Why? Defenders React. Now, you're automatically surrounded on the turn you charge and you're always going to be hit with the maximum number of attacks. Against certain very specific targets it's great. But some armies just won't present any targets like that, i.e. any horde army or any assault oriented army. If a unit is worthless against a substantial segment of armies, it is a bad unit and shouldn't be taken. The jump Canoness was awesome in 4th edition, but it's 2010 now. Wake up and smell the the new edition.

Geeze, what is up with people today? Did you really need to whip out the derision firehose for your opinion of a unit? Can't you just say 'I disagree. Based on the new rules surrounding Defenders reacting, her role has changed.'

If you read what I wrote, it still works against tough units because of the 2+, but torrent can become a problem. You still want to attack elite units with her. (TWC, Assault Termies, Command Squads, etc) You do not want to attack things with 20 of anything (Boyz, Gaunt Squads, etc)

All it takes are two S6+ wounds to get through that 2+ invulnerable save, and she's gone. That's not so hard ot believe happening...

Melissia wrote:All it takes are two S6+ wounds to get through that 2+ invulnerable save, and she's gone. That's not so hard ot believe happening...

It actually only takes one. I don't run her with the mantle. She has drawbacks. There are no combat monsters in C:WH for assault. But there are Martyrs. JP Canoness makes a great Hero/Martyr. Either she spectacularly stops the Heretic or she dies after holding them back for quite a while. That's win/win while the rest of my army is disassembling your non-rock units.

All it takes is one str 8 wound on many SM characters or Str10 on a TWC killer Wolf Lord. Not so hard to believe that happening either. The difference is mine is 116 pts for 3 Wd, Eviscerator, Ld10 Stubborn, Tarpit of doom. Add in her mobility and she allows me to pick my battles and which units I want near me at any given time. Same reason I run Seraphim. They let me control who is in assault when.

Maybe. But I will never, ever support the idea of martyrdom as a commonly used tactic. It seems completely and utterly moronic to sacrifice your leaders, veterans of hundreds of battles, every single small skirmish you get involved in... you'd run out of them rather quickly I'd think, assuming you ever got any in the first place.

But that's a fluff objection rather than a gameplay one.

Melissia wrote:Maybe. But I will never, ever support the idea of martyrdom as a commonly used tactic. It seems completely and utterly moronic to sacrifice your leaders, veterans of hundreds of battles, every single small skirmish you get involved in... you'd run out of them rather quickly I'd think, assuming you ever got any in the first place.

But that's a fluff objection rather than a gameplay one.

It's leading from the front. A common practice in warfare.

Has anyone ever tried building a death star unit with sisters? Cause I run a Canoness in a squad of Celetians with a Priest. I arm the Canoness, Priest and Veteran with Eviscerators. I seem to be having much success with this unit.

Necrosis wrote:Has anyone ever tried building a death star unit with sisters? Cause I run a Canoness in a squad of Celetians with a Priest. I arm the Canoness, Priest and Veteran with Eviscerators. I seem to be having much success with this unit.

While that squad certainly has some punch, that's a lot of points to invest in a str 6 power weapon (I have a hard time justifying them on my Tactical Sergeants where they are S8) on a bunch of now expensive T3 models. You'd have to pump a bunch of faith points into them to make them even slightly survivable.

Ask any Eldar player what it feels like to have their 300 point unit gunned down by a tactical squad.

Necrosis wrote:Has anyone ever tried building a death star unit with sisters? Cause I run a Canoness in a squad of Celetians with a Priest. I arm the Canoness, Priest and Veteran with Eviscerators. I seem to be having much success with this unit.

It's too expensive for what it does, for how fragile it is, and for how easy it is to stop/avoid. Since it's riding an AV11 tank, it just takes one missile shot to take it out of the game. And since it has no assault vehicle, it's got a very limited charge range, meaning enemies that fear it can just stay back. It's not the worst idea, because 10 S6 power attacks that reroll hits is pretty good against almost anything. But it's not the most efficient way to take enemies apart either. For the points, I prefer to tie them up with Seraphim (who can't have their mobility taken away) and then shoot them to death after the Seraphim hit & run. I suppose you could run a tag team of Seraphim + Canoness deathstar, since the Seraphim could jump in first and tie them down. I don't know if it's a competitive idea but it would be interesting to play with.