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British popular song has not always placed great emphasis on rhyming couplets. There are many British music-hall songs that don't rhyme all the way through.
halonachos wrote:
A patriot loves his country, a nationalist believes his country is the best, a jingoist will force you to believe his country is best.
Well, by the definition you provided, a nationalist would love his nation (eg. society) and feel that it deserved to be recognized, and protected by the creation of a state. Protection, in this instance is not necessarily related to military action, but often cultural safe-guards as well; hence we have parties like the BNP.
I consider myself a nationalist - however this in the civic/territorial sense. Ethnicity plays no part in it for me. I feel absolutely no connection to the BNP - ethnocentric politics are for the terminally immature and the culturally illiterate.
You really believe we live in the best country in the world?
IMO France is historically much better... but mnyah.
Yeah, we get it - you're a self-hating Brit. We've just had 12 years of them in power. Turned out marvellously, didn't it...
How exactly is France 'historically much better' than England/Britain? They've spend most of their history playing second fiddle to us.
That's by-the-by. I don't believe that my country is the most powerful, the most wealthy, or the most important.
But it is the most 'mine'.
It's my feeling that if everyone in the UK took pride in their country, in their community and in themselves as British people, it would solve a lot of our societal problems.
Pride in your country Sticking to traditional British Values of hard-work, honesty and decency. This means getting off your arse and finding work so you can pay taxes for the things we need, such as education, defence and the health service. It is dishonest and indecent to expect others to subsidise your laziness if you CAN work, but choose not to.
Pride in your community Not turning a blind eye to the antisocial behaviour, petty crime and casual violence which blights our neighbourhood. Hell, how about a return to 'neighbourhood' as a concept. Sending out the signal that drunken, jobless, antisocial scum who make decent peoples lives a misery with their intimidation and loutish behaviour will not be tolerated. Keeping our streets clean because they are OURS. Helping the Police to do their jobs by being open and honest, instead of clannish and distrustful. They are OUR public servants, but they can't help us unless we help them. Showing the most vulnerable, frightened and lonely members of society that we are there for them.
Pride in yourself as a Briton Focussing on the things that bind us together, not that keep us apart. Pride in our pivotal role in history. Pride in our culture. Pride that people of all races and religions call our country their home - our flag has more than one colour, so do our people. But they all have one thing in common: They are British, and I'm proud of that.
That's what Nationalism means to me.
It's a fabulous gimmick: I just assume that we feel that way because of our anglo-centric history, but I imagine a French student would learn about how France under the Franks built Europe's greatest medieval empire... obviously that fell but still remained the centre of Medieval politics, rose again to become the pre-eminent power, though I'll admit it seems they took a nap during the Tudor period due to internal struggles. The Napoleonic period just emphasises how powerful a nation it was. Whereas we Brits came to ignore Europe and just comb the seas France in her history has dominated the continent AND managed to build an Empire second in size to ours.
I'd also argue that their state today is much more modern and liberally democratic than our own (despite the progresses we claim to have invented, we're still following this ridiculous Westminster system)... Really, I think the reason that we place so much emphasis on Britain as Yankees and Brits is because we've made the world anglo-centric, or at least, as far as I am aware it can be described as thus (naturally I lack what I think would be an illuminating experience: A point of view on world history from a foreign perspective, I mean, I wonder how relatively "minor" nations view it). There are countries out there that can easily contend with our experience: If we're going to get nationalistic it should be as Europeans, not silly factions that at the end of the day aren't relatively easily to differ from one another if considered from another vantage. I'll admit I picked France as an example to deliberately grind the gears of other Britons, but I would stand by everything I've said about it. "Playing fiddle to us": I'd say they occasionally felt the need to come after us when their position on the continent was secure, whereas through our history we've been: Aspirants to the FRENCH throne, pirates, colonists, traders, Imperialists. It's not as impressive a resume if you ask me.
Though, I'm glad you've clarified that our country isn't the best... Makes me wonder if me typing out all that was necessary but what-the-hey!
I wonder who you target with your first principle "Pride in your Country": is it that massive host of young, athletic, well-built individuals who are all apparently sponging off the state? It's a nice illusion to believe in I guess, that people *choose* not to work and that the government never took step to remove them from that position... It's almost as good as blaming the Jews.
Pride in your Community: Labour wanted middle class votes, if you possessed the perfect implementation plan to build that utopia of yours, you should have gone to Westminster! They'd have received you with open arms! No? It's easy to criticise from the sidelines. But don't worry, I'm sure the Tories will "put more police on the beat" (despite the fact we've never had so many policemen) and at least beat the problem away from your eyes.
I can't disagree with your final point though
I'll add that I voted for the first time last election and I was forced to tactical vote... Literally going to bed with Nick Clegg and waking up with... that thing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/05/26 13:58:00
Henners proves me right again, ive always claimed that all of these pathetic "politically correct" hand wringing, self loathing cringing socialists made up the "meat" of the labour party, and what does he do?
Tactical Voting.
Ahh democracy.
Labour have screwed the country, but you tactically voted to try and keep them in?
Explain a good reason why, and no "mum and dad raised me to do that" doesnt count as a good answer.
Ugh.. "tactical voting".. even the words make me want to rip my own head off in frustration.
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
Sebster wrote:What is going, man? I think God Save the Queen is rubbish, and think the Star Spangled Banner is great.
You, Dogma and I need to sit down and have a nice chat.
DR:80+S(GT)G++M++B-I++Pwmhd05#+D+++A+++/sWD-R++T(Ot)DM+ How is it they live in such harmony - the billions of stars - when most men can barely go a minute without declaring war in their minds about someone they know.
- St. Thomas Aquinas
Warhammer 40K:
Alpha Legion - 15,000 pts For the Emperor!
WAAAGH! Skullhooka - 14,000 pts
Biel Tan Strikeforce - 11,000 pts
"The Eldar get no attention because the average male does not like confetti blasters, shimmer shields or sparkle lasers."
-Illeix
Henners91 wrote:It's a fabulous gimmick: I just assume that we feel that way because of our anglo-centric history, but I imagine a French student would learn about how France under the Franks built Europe's greatest medieval empire... obviously that fell but still remained the centre of Medieval politics, rose again to become the pre-eminent power, though I'll admit it seems they took a nap during the Tudor period due to internal struggles. The Napoleonic period just emphasises how powerful a nation it was. Whereas we Brits came to ignore Europe and just comb the seas France in her history has dominated the continent AND managed to build an Empire second in size to ours.
Well, Napoleon tried to dominate Europe and was defeated by a coalition of European powers with Britain as the leader. Hardly ignoring Europe, is it? I love the part about 'just combing the seas' - is that how you would describe an Empire of unprecedented wealth and power? You really are laughable in your efforts to downplay the history of your own country. There is a reason modern history is anglo-centric - we made it so. English is the de facto language of commerce, and most of the world's wealth is based upon the British Empire's legacy of global trade. I assume you'll probably reply with some facile, childish rubbish such as 'yeah, but is that a good thing?
Enjoy your computer, shoes, TV, food, banking...ad nauseum
I'd also argue that their state today is much more modern and liberally democratic than our own
Potential burkha ban.
If we're going to get nationalistic it should be as Europeans, not silly factions that at the end of the day aren't relatively easily to differ from one another if considered from another vantage.
Europe isn't a nation - even so, you can hardly describe Britain's historic position as that of a 'silly faction'. I think that applies to mainland Europe more than it does to us. What possible reason would you have to be nationalistic as a European? The Euro? Centuries of internecine squabbling, war and genocide? You seriously need to revisit which side your baguette is buttered. The EU is an experiment, one that is on the verge of failure.
Aspirants to the FRENCH throne, pirates, colonists, traders, Imperialists. It's not as impressive a resume if you ask me.
The French did all those things, they just didn't do them as successfully as us - that's why I said they've played second fiddle to us.
The exception of course being the French throne - they got rid of that. The Great Terror anyone?
I wonder who you target with your first principle "Pride in your Country": is it that massive host of young, athletic, well-built individuals who are all apparently sponging off the state? It's a nice illusion to believe in I guess, that people *choose* not to work and that the government never took step to remove them from that position... It's almost as good as blaming the Jews.
Oh behave! It's absolutely nothing like that - what an insult to a group of people who were victimised and ultimately exterminated. You have some serious growing up to do.
Whilst we're talking about illusions - do you honestly believe that everyone who claims Jobseeker's Allowance is incapable of finding work? Seriously? What planet are you living on? Youth unemployment is at record levels, as are the number of people of working age who have NEVER worked. Nah, but they're all sick and infirm, or it's the tory party's fault, or there are no jobs, or they're being victimised....
Do you ACTUALLY believe this stuff or are you just trotting out the party line?
Pride in your Community: Labour wanted middle class votes, if you possessed the perfect implementation plan to build that utopia of yours, you should have gone to Westminster! They'd have received you with open arms! No? It's easy to criticise from the sidelines. But don't worry, I'm sure the Tories will "put more police on the beat" (despite the fact we've never had so many policemen) and at least beat the problem away from your eyes.
Who said anything about putting 'more police on the beat'? I'm talking about a community coming together to show that thuggish behaviour won't be tolerated. Taking responsibility. I'm not even going to talk about how much Labour increased bureaucracy in the Police Force. It's not my job to educate you. But fine, ignore the social problems we are facing, ignore the urban decay - ASBOs haven't fixed the country, they have arguably made it worse.
You're a self-hating British europhile - looks like the Labour party got it's hooks into you good and early.
Henners91 wrote:Literally going to bed with Nick Clegg and waking up with
Whoa whoa whoa whoa. What did you... do in bed?
Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it.
Sebster wrote:What is going, man? I think God Save the Queen is rubbish, and think the Star Spangled Banner is great.
You, Dogma and I need to sit down and have a nice chat.
I don't like God Save the Queen either, but dear god the Star Spangled Banner is crap.
Though that may have something to do with having to hear it as every single sporting event that I've either attended, or played in, throughout the entirety of my life.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
The Star Spangled Banner is awesome because it's long lasting. God Save the Queen has to be changed if a king comes along while "Bombs Bursting in Air" reflects even today's world events.
JEB_Stuart wrote:That's fine, I can understand that. Most of my family is like that. I am not. I have been accused of being anti-American for loving Britain so much. I CAN'T HELP THAT THEY HAVE A BETTER "NATIONAL" ANTHEM!!!!
What is going, man? I think God Save the Queen is rubbish, and think the Star Spangled Banner is great.
Hate to say it, but I think La Marseillaise beats all.
Just here to remind you guys that America is the greatest country in the world:
Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it.
Of course america is the best they created the hot air balloon, the English language and singlehandedly won both world wars.. I mean why is this even a discussion.
Sebster wrote:What is going, man? I think God Save the Queen is rubbish, and think the Star Spangled Banner is great.
You, Dogma and I need to sit down and have a nice chat.
I don't like God Save the Queen either, but dear god the Star Spangled Banner is crap.
Though that may have something to do with having to hear it as every single sporting event that I've either attended, or played in, throughout the entirety of my life.
Star spangled banner is as good as any other national anthem. Overexposure kills that kind of thing, I don't understand why it's played at sporting events.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/05/27 21:49:32
----------------
Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
Star spangled banner is as good as any other national anthem. Overexposure kills that kind of thing, I don't understand why it's played at sporting events.
ShumaGorath wrote:The best country is clearly the moon.
Pfft. Titan kicks the Moon's ass. TITAN, TITAN, TITAN!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
gorgon wrote:
sebster wrote:
JEB_Stuart wrote:That's fine, I can understand that. Most of my family is like that. I am not. I have been accused of being anti-American for loving Britain so much. I CAN'T HELP THAT THEY HAVE A BETTER "NATIONAL" ANTHEM!!!!
What is going, man? I think God Save the Queen is rubbish, and think the Star Spangled Banner is great.
Hate to say it, but I think La Marseillaise beats all.
Yeah, La Marseillaise is good.
It has to be said, many more countries have anthems which sound more interesting than both the UK and USAs.
For example, the Paraguayan anthem is a charming ditty by the name of 'Paraguayans, the Republic or Death!', or how about Bhutan's - 'The Thunder Dragon Kingdom'? That's pretty METAL!-sounding.
There is also Sao Tome and Principe's 'Total Independence', which sounds like a Steven Seagal film.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/05/27 23:18:42
I intentionally didn't think about it. You did put the thought of watching Titan A.E. into my head. Now I have to track it down and buy it. Such an entertaining movie.
The Moon isn't even a country, it's owned by the United States.
Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it.
mattyrm wrote:"waa waa the French are so much better.."
Henners proves me right again, ive always claimed that all of these pathetic "politically correct" hand wringing, self loathing cringing socialists made up the "meat" of the labour party, and what does he do?
Tactical Voting.
Ahh democracy.
Labour have screwed the country, but you tactically voted to try and keep them in?
Explain a good reason why, and no "mum and dad raised me to do that" doesnt count as a good answer.
Ugh.. "tactical voting".. even the words make me want to rip my own head off in frustration.
I'll pretend not to be insulted
I voted on ideological grounds, appealing to my own sense of morality rather than throwing my lot in (at least, party membership-wise) with the Liberals who I consider to simply be conscientious Free Marketeers (and a waste of a vote, as my Tactical Vote in Wokingham certainly was). I'll admit that as more information about the deficit comes out I've been disheartened, at points even considering burying my head in the sand... That anger should be directed towards Brown and his Third Way proponents, not my beliefs as a Socialist: Therefore I am afraid that the party will always maintain my loyalty so long as it is the only remotely leftist party that remains electable.
As for "screwing up the country": You call me self-loathing? Do you read the Sun every morning and have a little raaage about all the damn immigants, da bankas and da Empeez expenzez? Maybe it would be prudent to cast your mind back to 1997 and think of everything we've gained, Major hardly left the nation in the best condition. If you're going to whine about "Broken Britain" then 1. I'd ask you if it's really altogether that bad, funny enough you can actually walk the streets and 2. If you can honestly tell me that the "disgusting, dirty underclasses" are kept as benefit claimers by Labour, who've introduced pretty nasty legislation that requires you to actively find work within 6 months? A friend of mine is going through that now and they literally watch his every move.
It's so fashionable to fling blame for every problem at the incumbent government, especially when the majority of the press is opposed to it. Thirteen years is a long time, a long time for people to get bored and attribute mistakes to the state and, of course, for random events to pop to the surface such as Civil Servants leaving laptops on the train... How did you feel in 1997? What would you say attracted your attention elsewhere? A media equivalent of a fluttering butterfly? Like it or not, Labour was democratically elected three times.
As for my parents, they, as far as I know, only voted for Labour the first time this election, having been LibDem voters beforehand with my dad even voting Tory many years ago. If you want to attribute some kind of stereotype to me, go for "Middle Class kid all independent for the first time! Whaaay politics! Whaaay Unions!"
We're in a financial crisis which people can't expect a free ride through: If you have the ability to pay then you must, taxes should be raised and people forced to bear the brunt for their fellow man, Brits love to conjure up this phantom of "The Blitz Spirit" and yet when faced with the prospect of actually having to endure losses to assist others they shirk away. I recently had the pleasure of listening to Eddie Izzard for the second time thanks to my party and he flat out said to one question that he is happy to pay higher taxes temporarily.
What's wrong with Tactical Voting? I shan't do it again since I went to bed with Clegg and woke up with Cameron, but are you going to tell me that I should have voted Labour in Wokingham? Look up the damn figures, man! I figured the only constructive course of action was to attempt to deny Cameron a seat, which of course failed.. what with it being Wokingham... but I had to vote out of principle, as I believe that anyone who doesn't vote has no right to whine about anything remotely political. Ever.
My upping the French, as I explained, was a deliberate choice to simply grind the tits of me fellow Englishmen Honestly I don't see how we can say we're better than them... Maybe a non-power, but certainly not our historical rivals...
Also, please offer clarification: Is *not* believing our country is the best in Europe "self-hating"?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/05/28 12:16:55
Henners91 wrote:As for "screwing up the country": You call me self-loathing? Do you read the Sun every morning and have a little raaage about all the damn immigants, da bankas and da Empeez expenzez? Maybe it would be prudent to cast your mind back to 1997 and think of everything we've gained, Major hardly left the nation in the best condition. If you're going to whine about "Broken Britain" then 1. I'd ask you if it's really altogether that bad, funny enough you can actually walk the streets and 2. If you can honestly tell me that the "disgusting, dirty underclasses" are kept as benefit claimers by Labour, who've introduced pretty nasty legislation that requires you to actively find work within 6 months? A friend of mine is going through that now and they literally watch his every move.
How old were you in 1997? Is the '91' in your username a reflection of your DOB? How do you know what we have and haven't gained in real terms? It isn't 'nasty' to expect someone to find work in half a year.
It's so fashionable to fling blame for every problem at the incumbent government, especially when the majority of the press is opposed to it. Thirteen years is a long time, a long time for people to get bored and attribute mistakes to the state and, of course, for random events to pop to the surface such as Civil Servants leaving laptops on the train...
Yeah, because it has nothing to do with two foreign wars, massive overspending, increased bureaucracy, forcing the Lisbon treaty down our necks, immigration the highest it's ever been and the worst financial crisis since WWII.
But hey, I'm just fashionable.
We're in a financial crisis which people can't expect a free ride through: If you have the ability to pay then you must, taxes should be raised and people forced to bear the brunt for their fellow man, Brits love to conjure up this phantom of "The Blitz Spirit" and yet when faced with the prospect of actually having to endure losses to assist others they shirk away. I recently had the pleasure of listening to Eddie Izzard for the second time thanks to my party and he flat out said to one question that he is happy to pay higher taxes temporarily.
Let me get this straight - Labour taxes us up the arse, wastes all the money, and your answer is 'put taxes up'? Erm, hello? The Civil Service is bloated beyond all sensible proportions and we spend BILLIONS on benefits - in some parts of the UK the Public Sector makes up 70% of the economy! If that wasn't bad enough, it's not even working! All those people the Labour Party promised to lift out of poverty... the gap between the richest and the poorest is higher than when Labour took over, and there are more people officially living in poverty now.
mattyrm wrote:"waa waa the French are so much better.."
Henners proves me right again, ive always claimed that all of these pathetic "politically correct" hand wringing, self loathing cringing socialists made up the "meat" of the labour party, and what does he do?
Tactical Voting.
Ahh democracy.
Labour have screwed the country, but you tactically voted to try and keep them in?
Explain a good reason why, and no "mum and dad raised me to do that" doesnt count as a good answer.
Ugh.. "tactical voting".. even the words make me want to rip my own head off in frustration.
I'll pretend not to be insulted
I voted on ideological grounds, appealing to my own sense of morality rather than throwing my lot in (at least, party membership-wise) with the Liberals who I consider to simply be conscientious Free Marketeers (and a waste of a vote, as my Tactical Vote in Wokingham certainly was). I'll admit that as more information about the deficit comes out I've been disheartened, at points even considering burying my head in the sand... That anger should be directed towards Brown and his Third Way proponents, not my beliefs as a Socialist: Therefore I am afraid that the party will always maintain my loyalty so long as it is the only remotely leftist party that remains electable.
As for "screwing up the country": You call me self-loathing? Do you read the Sun every morning and have a little raaage about all the damn immigants, da bankas and da Empeez expenzez? Maybe it would be prudent to cast your mind back to 1997 and think of everything we've gained, Major hardly left the nation in the best condition. If you're going to whine about "Broken Britain" then 1. I'd ask you if it's really altogether that bad, funny enough you can actually walk the streets and 2. If you can honestly tell me that the "disgusting, dirty underclasses" are kept as benefit claimers by Labour, who've introduced pretty nasty legislation that requires you to actively find work within 6 months? A friend of mine is going through that now and they literally watch his every move.
It's so fashionable to fling blame for every problem at the incumbent government, especially when the majority of the press is opposed to it. Thirteen years is a long time, a long time for people to get bored and attribute mistakes to the state and, of course, for random events to pop to the surface such as Civil Servants leaving laptops on the train... How did you feel in 1997? What would you say attracted your attention elsewhere? A media equivalent of a fluttering butterfly? Like it or not, Labour was democratically elected three times.
As for my parents, they, as far as I know, only voted for Labour the first time this election, having been LibDem voters beforehand with my dad even voting Tory many years ago. If you want to attribute some kind of stereotype to me, go for "Middle Class kid all independent for the first time! Whaaay politics! Whaaay Unions!"
We're in a financial crisis which people can't expect a free ride through: If you have the ability to pay then you must, taxes should be raised and people forced to bear the brunt for their fellow man, Brits love to conjure up this phantom of "The Blitz Spirit" and yet when faced with the prospect of actually having to endure losses to assist others they shirk away. I recently had the pleasure of listening to Eddie Izzard for the second time thanks to my party and he flat out said to one question that he is happy to pay higher taxes temporarily.
What's wrong with Tactical Voting? I shan't do it again since I went to bed with Clegg and woke up with Cameron, but are you going to tell me that I should have voted Labour in Wokingham? Look up the damn figures, man! I figured the only constructive course of action was to attempt to deny Cameron a seat, which of course failed.. what with it being Wokingham... but I had to vote out of principle, as I believe that anyone who doesn't vote has no right to whine about anything remotely political. Ever.
My upping the French, as I explained, was a deliberate choice to simply grind the tits of me fellow Englishmen Honestly I don't see how we can say we're better than them... Maybe a non-power, but certainly not our historical rivals...
Also, please offer clarification: Is *not* believing our country is the best in Europe "self-hating"?
Henners, did you actually say that Britain isnt that bad because we could WALK THE STREETS?
What the hell do you think we used to do in 1997?! Get escorted to work by the green berets?
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
I like Ireland in some ways. I think it is potentially a great country. Unfortunately it has many, many flaws that I do sort of find unacceptable. The acceptance of corruption, disregard for the landscape and environment, anti-intellectual streak and dyed in the wool voting patterns really get to me. Sadly, I'm pretty certain that things will be roughly the same (maybe slightly better) wherever I go. I do have a particularly deep dislike for the people who kept Fianna Fáil in power for so long with their destructive policies, and especially those who voted Progressive Democrat. I really do sincerely hope that things have gone badly for them. Which is not a very nice thing to hope, at all.
Alpha Legion - 15,000 pts For the Emperor!
WAAAGH! Skullhooka - 14,000 pts
Biel Tan Strikeforce - 11,000 pts
Centuries of internecine squabbling, war and genocide? 
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Honestly I don't see how we can say we're better than them... Maybe a non-power, but certainly not our historical rivals...
