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Sgt Diablo wrote:

chaosOxomega - In one part of your post you tell people to sue us. In the second you ask for our help. Do you need foam, or do you need legal advise? I would love to help you with foam and we do the kind of work you are asking for. If your looking to sue us for false advertising then I don't really know how to help.

You will have to forgive me, but it was a bit of humor/sarcasm rather than an actual threat, and I do not intend to engage in frivolous legal actions.

Anyway, are you capable of what I asked or should I look elsewhere?

Romeo,

Who do you guys at battlefoam think you are? You clearly used a strange numbering system to confuse your costomers, are we expected to figure out just looking at your website for a few brief moments that the bigger the number the larger the bag?!? And that bags that have names tend to have a more highly specialized function? Who do you think is using this product, because it appears to me that you are marketing to a highly intelligent group of people involved in a niche hobby that generally requires tons thinking coupled with reading descriptions of things and a keen attention to detail... clearly you don't understand your audience at all and are likely to be sued because your numbering system is intentionally confusing, and makes my head go ouchy boo boo... WHY, WHY Romeo?!?

So back in reality I have been planning my 720's load out, and was wondering if there is a chance that I can trace the models in my command sqaud to have the foam cut specifically to there shape, similar to the BA tray yous guys offer, or if I need to try and figure out which sized rectangle, oval etc fits each character best?

and as a clarification did you say that it may be possible to make a tray that is not one of your pre-set sizes? I've been wanting to actually use the bolter "ammo crate" I got when 5th ed 40k dropped but the foam it came with is just a solid block of egg crate stylie and essentially useless to transport models without crushing them.

Thanks again for making such a sweet product and don't let the haters effect you, you have created a company from the ground up and are quite skilled at it illustrated by your success. You realized a niche that wasn't being covered in our hobby and you have more than filled that gap.

Cheers

http://battlefoam.com/battlefoam-custom-form.pdf <- order form for custom foam cutouts

http://battlefoam.com/catalog.php?item=86&catid=2&ret=catalog.php%3Fcategory%3D2 <- ordering information

Well when wayland games get them in i'll be picking one of the new 1520's up. Are there any plans to offer custom foam through Wayland? (like we order it, then next time wayland places an order with you you shove it in the box with thier order), also are there plansfor them to increase the selection that they stock?


p.s. got your space hulk foam the other week, it is awesome!

Props to you Romeo for having the patience of Methuselah to handle with such tact an argument revolving around.... foam. Oh, and I really like your product line.


Top 10 of what I'd have done in your position.

10)Wonder why I even make an effort to communicate with people who must fail so utterly at communication in day to day life or suffer from what can only be described as an Online/Digital Asperger's Syndrome.

9)Asked myself and then documented how I managed to attract, what may arguably be, the largest online swarm of TFGs I've seen to date.

8)Asked them what business/product they had contributed to the gaming community, nay, the world lately.

7)I'd show'em that yes, in fact, you can be stabbed with foam.

6)I'd have shown them how that spiffy little wheeled cart works equally well as a dork wheelchair.

5)I'd have told them that an inch or two doesn't matter its just FOAM, but then have felt bad that they may have thought I was talking about something else.

4)I'd have told them my grandmother complains about more pertinent things, and she talks to the walls and flings her poo.

3)I'd have told them that even talking about lawsuits over the size of a box and how many toy soldiers it can hold isn't just crap. Its the crap of a bug that just ate a spoiled sun baked turd.

2)I'd have told them where to put all 1,520 figures.

1) Needless to say, I'd have snappedXL.

Dear Romeo , this is a clear case of how " customer is always right " hear me out...

It does absolutely no good for your company when the numbering system is clearly confusing your potential buyers.
It doesnt really matter if the number system works in your mind , because the buyers are the one that is making the actual purchase... and are been confused.

So instead of telling the customers why they are wrong , perhaps look at it from the other perspective...
Listen to them to why they are confused , and adjust the system accordingly.

Because , a happy customer will be a repeat customer , and will serve you as the best advertisement to their friends .
No amount of money or forum banner advertisement will ever beat this

We have corrected the size of the 1520XL to its new official size of 22". Now you get 1 full compartment that has a total height of 22". You can also zip a P.A.C.K. Plus onto the top and get an additional 6 inches totalling your bag height to 28". This would carry close to 2000 space marine size models.

Romeo
Battle Foam
Protecting Your Army

Customers were the ones who came up with the system. There was a contest here on Dakka.

Also, What difference does the number make? As long as a 720 is smaller than a 1520, I don't see how anything is confusing.

The old 1520s are out of Production. The replacement has an XL designation. How is it confusing again?


edit, hostile tone

That was extremely fast. All of the sudden, pow, 22" for the 1520.

Drat! I wanted the 18" one instead of the 22" one! Curses foiled again! (this is all sarcasm...)

On a serious note... I've got one of the "older" 1520s and it rocks... I really wanted it to be two seperate cases and for that it works great... though now I think I need a new 1520 as well...

Which reminds me... I need to order some custom foam trays as well... /sigh

skrulnik wrote:Customers were the ones who came up with the system. There was a contest here on Dakka.

Also, What difference does the number make? As long as a 720 is smaller than a 1520, I don't see how anything is confusing.

The old 1520s are out of Production. The replacement has an XL designation. How is it confusing again?


edit, hostile tone

the confusion wasn't between the 720 and 1520; it was between the 1520 and 1520XL. almost everyone who looked at those designations would think that the 1520XL is larger than the 1520 but it was 18% smaller. next time, it might help if you read the entire thread (it's only three pages) instead of just the last few posts.

if the the XL is up to 22" of foam just like the original now then i have no problem with the nomenclature. kudos to romeo and battlefoam for listening to the public/consumers!

I think the most frustrating thing is the perception that Romeo was being defensive of his decision. Despite the Company and product being superb in many ways, the perception that Romeo was too brusque rubbed several people the wrong way.

At the same time he was giving us the song and dance, he was in fact taking what the public was asking for and putting it into production.

Again, extremely fast and a perfect answer to the problem.

Also: Great video of the new products. For a look go to the site.

warboss wrote:next time, it might help if you read the entire thread (it's only three pages) instead of just the last few posts.

I did read the whole thread, thanks.

I will repeat.

1520 is discontinued. 1520xl is the replacement in the same class. Where is the confusion?

The XL designation certainly implies bigger. But if the old one is unavailable, what does it matter?

skrulnik wrote:
The XL designation certainly implies bigger. But if the old one is unavailable, what does it matter?

let's say I sell a widget. You like my widget, but it's not quite perfect for you. I then replace the old widget with the widget XL, which adds some great new features. You decide to buy it. Would you assume, absent close reading, that the Widget XL was not only better, but larger than the old one?

I don't think there's any sinister motives here, and I'm guessing in reality nobody is going to be confused to the point of wanting their money back. But it was simply a bad name, because XL doesn't mean better, it means bigger. 1520 Deluxe, or 1520 Mobile would have been better.

The sub issue, for some of us, is that instead of just copping to it and admitting that the name was misleading, Romeo basically told us anybody that would be mislead is dumb. There's a bit of protocol for public relations, and in this case he did everything right (fixing the problem, clarifying the situation, making sure that people aren't mislead), except for treating the people that pointed out the problem with anything approaching respect. A big part of customer relations is to make the customer feel good, and one of the easiest ways to do that is to empathize and treat the customer, and their problem, with respect. By saying, "Ok, I can see how somebody could be confused. We want to re-iterate that the case does hold less foam, but the advertised number of models, and we'll make it very clear on the website how big this new bag is." Romeo could have made everybody happy. Instead, he's had dozens of posts complaining about his company. Romeo does most of his own PR, and judging by what I've seen, I'd imagine he has a hard time admitting mistakes, which is not uncommon in successful entrepreneurs.

We have corrected the size of the 1520XL to its new official size of 22". Now you get 1 full compartment that has a total height of 22". You can also zip a P.A.C.K. Plus onto the top and get an additional 6 inches totalling your bag height to 28". This would carry close to 2000 space marine size models.

Romeo
Battle Foam
Protecting Your Army

Thats a lot of PACK. You make it harder and harxer to stick to my hobby budget, lol.

grizgrin wrote:Thats a lot of PACK. You make it harder and harxer to stick to my hobby budget, lol.

I'd suggest getting a Hobby Budget XL, then.

Sgt Diablo wrote:We have corrected the size of the 1520XL to its new official size of 22". Now you get 1 full compartment that has a total height of 22". You can also zip a P.A.C.K. Plus onto the top and get an additional 6 inches totalling your bag height to 28". This would carry close to 2000 space marine size models.

Romeo
Battle Foam
Protecting Your Army

Pardon my ignorance, Romeo.

What were the measurements on the old PACK 1520?

Thanks.

Eric

Please, god; the pain.....

Let the man cut his foam. Jesus.

Sirius42 wrote:Well when wayland games get them in i'll be picking one of the new 1520's up. Are there any plans to offer custom foam through Wayland? (like we order it, then next time wayland places an order with you you shove it in the box with thier order), also are there plansfor them to increase the selection that they stock?


p.s. got your space hulk foam the other week, it is awesome!

As far as I am aware all of the custom cut foam is only available directly, no distributors are able to provide anything more than the stock trays, and even then I believe only a limited selection.

MagickalMemories wrote:

Sgt Diablo wrote:We have corrected the size of the 1520XL to its new official size of 22". Now you get 1 full compartment that has a total height of 22". You can also zip a P.A.C.K. Plus onto the top and get an additional 6 inches totalling your bag height to 28". This would carry close to 2000 space marine size models.

Romeo
Battle Foam
Protecting Your Army

Pardon my ignorance, Romeo.

What were the measurements on the old PACK 1520?

Thanks.

Eric

Read the first page of this thread. Its all there along with alot of, er, I hate to even be the one.... negativity....

Griz is gonna get you CitizenPrime....Watch your back!!!!

Griz we get that you really love Battlefoam. Once you've made that clear unless your responding directly in a way that matters to the thread we don't need the extra love posts.

That being said excellent job adjusting the XL bag Romeo. I might get one for local gaming now. And I agree with Polonius overall on his post of why you got the comments you did.

Polonius wrote:

skrulnik wrote:
The XL designation certainly implies bigger. But if the old one is unavailable, what does it matter?

let's say I sell a widget. You like my widget, but it's not quite perfect for you. I then replace the old widget with the widget XL, which adds some great new features. You decide to buy it. Would you assume, absent close reading, that the Widget XL was not only better, but larger than the old one?

I don't think there's any sinister motives here, and I'm guessing in reality nobody is going to be confused to the point of wanting their money back. But it was simply a bad name, because XL doesn't mean better, it means bigger. 1520 Deluxe, or 1520 Mobile would have been better.

It doesn't matter. Why do people who think "in reality nobody is going to be confused to the point of wanting their money back" make a fuss about it, the answer is simple. By the by, at least one Federal agency seems to think XL can mean "eXcellence in Leadership", but it seems we have a ruling on the field for this particular abbreviation.

Live in fear for the day Polonius discovers the German car numbering system. You should see the letter writing campaign he has regarding the small and large intestines...

Polonius wrote:The sub issue, for some of us, is that instead of just copping to it and admitting that the name was misleading, Romeo basically told us anybody that would be mislead is dumb. There's a bit of protocol for public relations, and in this case he did everything right (fixing the problem, clarifying the situation, making sure that people aren't mislead), except for treating the people that pointed out the problem with anything approaching respect. A big part of customer relations is to make the customer feel good, and one of the easiest ways to do that is to empathize and treat the customer, and their problem, with respect. By saying, "Ok, I can see how somebody could be confused. We want to re-iterate that the case does hold less foam, but the advertised number of models, and we'll make it very clear on the website how big this new bag is." Romeo could have made everybody happy. Instead, he's had dozens of posts complaining about his company. Romeo does most of his own PR, and judging by what I've seen, I'd imagine he has a hard time admitting mistakes, which is not uncommon in successful entrepreneurs.

Hehe. I gotta admit, compared to what I was looking at earlier today, this is pretty amusing: everything has been resolved to even the most irrational person's satisfaction, yet still he has not "made everybody happy". Let Romeo learn from this that fixing problems is nothing, coupons for fellatio are what the masses want.

Gracious, dozens of complains... unprecedented. (For those who don't care to look; the link is to a thread containing roughly 47 thousand posts complaining/protesting a feature yet to be implemented in World of Warcraft. Perspective.)

Buzzsaw wrote:
Hehe. I gotta admit, compared to what I was looking at earlier today, this is pretty amusing: everything has been resolved to even the most irrational person's satisfaction, yet still he has not "made everybody happy". Let Romeo learn from this that fixing problems is nothing, coupons for fellatio are what the masses want.

A fellatio joke, how droll. Asking for professionalism in service is not a particularly significant demand, its standard practice in the course of running a business. Granted, entrepreneurs are notoriously bad at customer service, but that doesn't absolve them of criticism.

In any case, its best to not invoke that tired "someone is wrong on the internet" cliche. After all, you're here stabbing away at the keyboard, just like the rest of us.

Buzzsaw wrote:
Gracious, dozens of complains... unprecedented. (For those who don't care to look; the link is to a thread containing roughly 47 thousand posts complaining/protesting a feature yet to be implemented in World of Warcraft. Perspective.)

Perhaps we should examine the relative size of the market being addressed before deciding that raw numbers have any meaning.

Buzzsaw wrote:
It doesn't matter. Why do people who think "in reality nobody is going to be confused to the point of wanting their money back" make a fuss about it, the answer is simple. By the by, at least one Federal agency seems to think XL can mean "eXcellence in Leadership", but it seems we have a ruling on the field for this particular abbreviation.

Live in fear for the day Polonius discovers the German car numbering system. You should see the letter writing campaign he has regarding the small and large intestines...

What amuses me is that you seem to be casting me as some sort of angry guy, ranting to the heavens about something trivial. I'm curious what internet you've been spending time on that my posts are considered cranky by comparison.

Hehe. I gotta admit, compared to what I was looking at earlier today, this is pretty amusing: everything has been resolved to even the most irrational person's satisfaction, yet still he has not "made everybody happy". Let Romeo learn from this that fixing problems is nothing, coupons for fellatio are what the masses want.

Actually, that's a pretty good lesson. Ask every successful business person you know if treating the customer well is as important as providing them with a quality product. I'd be pretty shocked if you found a lot of people, in business for any length of time, that don't acknowledge the importance of making people feel respected. And your hyperbole is a bit off base: to be fair to my point, Romeo is on record saying that nobody who used their brain could possibly make that mistake. There's a difference between fellatio vouchers, and calling people complaining dumb.

I think if you read all of my posts, you'd see that what I'm trying to do, rather than complain to get something (After all, I already own a very nice battlefoam bag), is that I'm hoping to help Romeo prevent his company from needlessly losing market share. Am I really that offbase in my business analysis that a business owner shouldn't needlessly piss off potential customers for no gain?

Gracious, dozens of complains... unprecedented. (For those who don't care to look; the link is to a thread containing roughly 47 thousand posts complaining/protesting a feature yet to be implemented in World of Warcraft. Perspective.)

Dogma hit the nail on the head concerning market size, but you again seem to be missing the point. The point isn't the bag itself, which seems to be a good value and a fine product. Hell, at this point the naming system isn't an issue: it's been resolved. The point is that in business there is a concept of "goodwill," essentially the value your company has based on reputation that goes beyond physical assets. Companies live or die on the goodwill, especially in markets where innovation can't be protected (although we'll see if the current patent litigation succeeds). Eventually customers may have the option to purchase battlefoam or a nearly identical knockoff (they already kind of do). In those instances, the reputation of the company because extremely valuable. BF's technical reputation is great, which is why I think it's a shame that for no reason, they hurt their own goodwill with stuff like this.

It's not a big deal, but it shows a potential weakness in a company, a company that I want to survive so I can make more purchases from. Start ups with a very powerful entrepreneur have a strength of vision, but can also become limited by that individuals weaknesses unless he learns to delegate. Given that we've seen extremely questionable public relations, and a very questionable legal decision (choice of jurisdiction, not subject matter), it's possible to paint a picture where Romeo isn't willing to listen to professionals or experts in making his decisions. That's often where firms go awry.

If this were a completely isolated incident, it would be a brief discussion. The problem is that I feel there is a pattern of behavior, and I'd like to see that pattern stop. At least long enough for me to buy enough Foam for all of my armies, but hopefully so that BF can stay in business for years and years.

And yeah, I'm having fun arguing with the fanboys, which is hilarious since I'm a huge fan of the company and recommend it's products wherever I go.

Polonius wrote:
And yeah, I'm having fun arguing with the fanboys, which is hilarious since I'm a huge fan of the company and recommend it's products wherever I go.

It's true. When I saw Polonius over Origins, his bag was sitting by his games and he kept fielding questions from walk-ups about it, and I KNOW for a fact that he was telling everyone about the quality and durability of the bag, and kept telling folks that Romeo was over in the Exhibit Hall selling them RIGHT NOW.

-Porkuslime

Same thing happened at the Big Waaagh last year... Had people offering me more than I paid for my 1520 even with it having highly customized Reaver/Dread drop pod/2 Storm/Bane blade foam in it.
Tons of questions, tons of offers....
The Pack Max is even worse, if you don't like attention.

So have you had to cancel production of the bag and have it made 4" bigger Romeo? This must be costing you a lot of money if that is the case!

The pack is keeping the same cost which is great news I will be ordering one from you asap. If I order in the next couple of days am I likely to receive mine for the 1st September date?

Confused as to why 22" case as it is not a multiple of 1.25" which is the basic troop size tray. Unless I am being dumb 17 trays of 1.25" will fit in the 22" space provided (leaving 0.75 space) and 17 trays of 72 troops (the tray size originally used to name the bags) will hold 1224 troops. So still not the 1520 lol.

This is not a problem for me. I don't use those standard trays anyway and all sorts of tanks etc are used. I can't wait to order one!

Janthkin wrote:

grizgrin wrote:Thats a lot of PACK. You make it harder and harxer to stick to my hobby budget, lol.

I'd suggest getting a Hobby Budget XL, then.

WIN! Jesu, I wish.

Hulksmash wrote:Griz is gonna get you CitizenPrime....Watch your back!!!!

No, not really. Not even a bit.

Hulksmash wrote:Griz we get that you really love Battlefoam. Once you've made that clear unless your responding directly in a way that matters to the thread we don't need the extra love posts.....

Wonder-mod powers, activate? Look homes, I'll make a comment where I like til a mod cuts me out.
They tend to do their jobs fairly well, and when I get out of line and need some "guidance" I am sure they will provide it.

You said three months ago that you were planning to make more trays tailored towards specific armies. So far I have only seen the Blood Angels tray and the Fire Prism tray since that thread was created. When can we expect to see more tailored trays, specifically those including named HQ choices for non-Blood Angels armies? Now granted, I may have missed some since there are a lot of 40k trays available, and if they don't show up on the "new items" part of your website and they're not Eldar (my only army at this point,) then I'm not likely to notice them despite how often I check the site for new products.

Also, on another note, is it possible for us to see the three Eldar cutouts from the troop tray added to the custom foam creator? Right now we only have the Eldar troop tray available by itself, and the half bikes, half troops tray that's bundled into the PACK 432 Eldar kit available with those particular cutouts, and a lot of Eldar players use more Aspect Warriors than Guardians, and given that the majority of Aspect Warriors are taller than 1.5", the shorter cutouts on the Eldar troops tray don't properly fill the needs of a lot of Eldar players, myself included.

I've purchased a PACK 432 from you guys and it was worth every penny of the $155 I spent on it (I bought it before the universal price reduction,) but I'm looking to purchase a new PACK 720 since my Eldar vehicle count has outgrown the space my 432 can accommodate due to the immense size of the Eldar grav tanks. In addition to more tank foam, which I've already decided on a mix of custom foam and the Fire Prism foam tray, I'm looking to add another tray for my infantry. This time I'm looking for a tray to present my various HQ's all in upright positions and not sticking out of the foam, as some of them, even the stock models, do not properly fit in even the largest cutouts in the Eldar troop tray, such as a Fusion Gun+Chain/Power Sword wielding Autarch(stock model,) or Maugan Ra with his Scythed Shuriken Cannon and large skull banner post. None of the options in the custom foam creator work very well for Eldar troops and I would like to see that changed if possible.

Also, another problem I'm noted on a few of the Eldar trays, is the height of foam trays that have Wraithlords that are supposed to be standing up in the tray. The following trays need to be at least 4.5" tall as that is the minimum height for a standard Wraithlord straight out of the box.

2 ELDAR TANK 3 WRAITHLORD 2 WAR WALKER FOAM TRAY (E07BF-3.5)
8 WAR WALKER 4 WRAITH LORD FOAM TRAY (E03BF-4)

Either those trays need to be 4.5" tall, or the Wraithlords need to be place on their sides and occupy about 3"x4.5" of space as a rectangle to allow for slightly dynamic poses of the Wraithlords.

If need be, I'm more than happy to help in the design of new Eldar trays.